Church Mariology making me nuts!

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

All Men/Women have sinned … not Christ the GOD-MAN !! We both know HE is the SUPERSTAR CREATOR … who does not sin [but willingly bore our sin], and was in no way being considered by Paul’s ALL, in the verse you allude to.

Well good you have acknowledged one exception of St. Paul’s verse.

Now how about babies? And how about the those mentally impaired from birth?

AND let me remind you that belief in the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary IS required as a Catholic. To not do so is to make yourself in grave danger of formal heresy which makes you automatically excommunicated.

 

[brb3]

+JMJ+

Well good you have acknowledged one exception of St. Paul’s verse.

Now how about babies? And how about the those mentally impaired from birth?

AND let me remind you that belief in the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary IS required as a Catholic. To not do so is to make yourself in grave danger of formal heresy which makes you automatically excommunicated.

Again, I see in scripture that God used many of his creation in miraculous ways. They got special graces & enlightenment that you / I haven’t. Job, Noah, Elijah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, John the Baptist, and Mary too. But, of all, scripture seems to support John The Baptist as the most spiritually graced & sinless of all.
Why some today want to put Mary out front as the Mediatrix of all graces… is not borne out by what Christ taught & the Apostles recorded. They were/are all Superstar saints, but I don’t think any of them considered themselves sinless … any w/o the need for redemption thru Christ.
Mary said " do whatever Christ teaches" … she desired the total focus upon her Son, who she declared in scrpicture as “her saviour” !!!

For us to put the spotlight on Mary, is not her wish … or Christ’s. It should be Holy Christ … not Holy Mary. Blessed and graced Mary, mother of our Lord, and greatest among women … that is supportable and valid, and should be taught !!! We honor her, not worship her.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Whose flesh did Jesus take to redeem the world?

It’s inane not see how important Mary was in the work of redemption as the New Eve. From Adam came Eve, from New Eve came New Adam.

If you ponder this you would see why she is so honored. It IS the will of Christ.

 

[Josephene]

Today being Friday, we do the Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary …

to see ourselves , standing next to the Bl.Mother , as she walks along with The Lord , during His Passion , reciting those words of heaven ‘Hail Mary , full of grace , The Lord is with thee ; blessed are you among women, blessed is the fruit of your womb .’

and she looking at each of us with compassion , that it is the claims of the enemy against each of us , that The Lord and with Him, she is bearing …with forgiving love, so that we too may repent and forgive and accept the mercy , all the way , to our ancestors in Adam and Eve, inorder to do away with the enemy claims , down through the generations …thus to be truly set free !

and we get to appreciate better , those words - 'my soul magnifies The Lord ’ …

 

[iloveangels]

Today being Friday, we do the Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary …

to see ourselves , standing next to the Bl.Mother , as she walks along with The Lord , during His Passion , reciting those words of heaven ‘Hail Mary , full of grace , The Lord is with thee ; blessed are you among women, blessed is the fruit of your womb .’

and she looking at each of us with compassion , that it is the claims of the enemy against each of us , that The Lord and with Him, she is bearing …with forgiving love, so that we too may repent and forgive and accept the mercy , all the way , to our ancestors in Adam and Eve, inorder to do away with the enemy claims , down through the generations …thus to be truly set free !

and we get to appreciate better , those words - 'my soul magnifies The Lord ’ …

Your devotion is fine. But it’s your devotion. You can’t shove it onto other people and insist that they have the save devotions as you. This is a prayer form, and there are plenty of good prayer forms for Catholics, this being only one of them.

 

[Cranch]

Since my OP, I have come back under the wing of Mary, and humbly am willing to follow Church teaching on her. Another great resource in this regard is Frank Sheed’s “Theology and Sanity,” where at pp. 319-326 he sets forth great explanations of Mary’s importance.

One important point for me to remember (because I have trouble with consistency on the devotional front) is that Catholicism is a “big tent” and I do not have to spend a lot of time on devotion to Mary if that is not where I feel called to more fully form my faith. She is there for me, though, when I am ready to call upon her. I will try to stay humble and continue to pray and study. Thank you all.

This post made my day! God bless.

 

[Cranch]

To whomever it may concern–a general statement directed at no-one personally:
The experience of being STRONG-ARMED by a Marian hyper-enthusiast is not a good one for many people. This is important to keep in mind. It can have the opposite effect to the one hoped. It can drive people off and often does. It can appear very imbalanced.

This struck my as a little ironic in light of your approach:

There’s a certain amount of the more “OUT-THERE” stuff you can just ignore.

Delusional.

Yeah, there are a lot of goofballs out there and some of them make it onto the radio.

Devotional stuff. Don’t get carried away.

That’s allegory and it’s a little wild, blood coursing through veins and all that.

Your devotion is fine. But it’s your devotion. You can’t shove it onto other people and insist that they have the save devotions as you.

 

[Mark121359]

This post made my day! God bless.

Second that!

 

[iloveangels]

This struck my as a little ironic in light of your approach:

Only because I’ve been cornered a few times by Marian zealots and I don’t like it. Some Marian devotion is legitimate. But some of it–the really out-there stuff–is a cultic replacement for Christianity.

 

[R_C]

Only because I’ve been cornered a few times by Marian zealots and I don’t like it. Some Marian devotion is legitimate. But some of it–the really out-there stuff–is a cultic replacement for Christianity.

Oh come on, I have seen posts in this thread that by themselves disqualify the poster, showing just how much they know about Marian devotion, to the extent that quite a few fall into heresy, ex. equating Our Lady to other saints (while the Church offers her a cult higher than that of the saints, though infinitely lower than that of God). Quite amusing to see one such poster come out and judge others.

If anyone takes time to stop judging and read Treatise on the True Devotion, they’d understand the difference between legitimate cult to Our Lady and erroneous forms of cult attributed to her. So let us briefly go over the latter, praying the Almighty to grant us just enough humbleness to be open to the teachings of the Church on these matters.

In what devotion to Mary consists

First principle: Christ must be the ultimate end of all devotions

False devotions to Our Lady

There are, I find, seven kinds of false devotion to Mary, namely, the devotion of (1) the critical, (2) the scrupulous, (3) the superficial, (4) the presumptuous, (5) the inconstant, (6) the hypocritical, (7) the selfinterested.

Critical devotees

Critical devotees are for the most part proud scholars, people of independent and self-satisfied minds, who deep down in their hearts have a vague sort of devotion to Mary. However, they criticise nearly all those forms of devotion to her which simple and pious people use to honour their good Mother just because such practices do not appeal to them. …] They question all miracles and stories which testify to the mercy and power of the Blessed Virgin …] They cannot bear to see simple and humble people on their knees before an altar or statue of our Lady …] They even accuse them of idolatry …] They say that as far as they are concerned they do not care for such outward display of devotion …] These false devotees, these proud worldly people are greatly to be feared.

Scrupulous devotees

Scrupulous devotees are those who imagine they are slighting the Son by honouring the Mother. They fear that by exalting Mary they are belittling Jesus. They cannot bear to see people giving to our Lady the praises due to her and which the Fathers of the Church have lavished upon her. …] as if those who were praying to our Lady were not praying through her to Jesus. They do not want us to speak too often of her or to pray so often to her …] There is some truth in what they say, but the inference they draw to prevent devotion to our Lady is very insidious. It is a subtle snare of the evil one under the pretext of promoting a greater good. For we never give more honour to Jesus than when we honour his Mother, and we honour her simply and solely to honour him all the more perfectly. …] “Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” Not that Mary is greater than Jesus, or even equal to him - that would be an intolerable heresy.

Superficial devotees

Superficial devotees are people whose entire devotion to our Lady consists in exterior practices. Only the externals of devotion appeal to them because they have no interior spirit. All that appeals to them is the emotional aspect of this devotion, but the substance of it has no appeal at all.

Presumptuous devotees

Presumptuous devotees are sinners who give full rein to their passions or their love of the world, and who, under the fair name of Christian and servant of our Lady, conceal pride, avarice, lust, drunkenness, anger, swearing, slandering, injustice and other vices. They sleep peacefully in their wicked habits, without making any great effort to correct them, believing that their devotion to our Lady gives them this sort of liberty. They convince themselves that God will forgive them,

Inconstant devotees

Inconstant devotees are those whose devotion to our Lady is practised in fits and starts. Sometimes they are fervent and sometimes they are lukewarm.

Hypocritical devotees

These hide their sins and evil habits under the mantle of the Blessed Virgin so as to appear to their fellow-men different from what they are.

Self-interested devotees

Then there are the self-interested devotees who turn to her only to win a court-case, to escape some danger, to be cured of some ailment, or have some similar need satisfied. Except when in need they never think of her. Such people are acceptable neither to God nor to his Mother.

The Treatise continues:

We must, then, carefully avoid joining the critical devotees, who believe nothing and find fault with everything; the scrupulous ones who, out of respect for our Lord, are afraid of having too much devotion to his Mother; the exterior devotees whose devotion consists entirely in outward practices; the presumptuous devotees who under cover of a fictitious devotion to our Lady wallow in their sins; the inconstant devotees who, being unstable, change their devotional practices or abandon them altogether at the slightest
temptation; the hypocritical ones who join confraternities and wear emblems of our Lady only to be thought of as good people; finally, the self-interested devotees who pray to our Lady only to be rid of bodily ills or to obtain material benefits.

 

[Mark121359]

Again, I see in scripture that God used many of his creation in miraculous ways. They got special graces & enlightenment that you / I haven’t. Job, Noah, Elijah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, John the Baptist, and Mary too. ** But, of all, scripture seems to support John The Baptist as the most spiritually graced & sinless of all.**

That may be your opinion and you’re entitled to it but that’s not the way the Catholic Church sees it…

" Mary the Blessed Virgin, The Mother of God, Mother of Jesus, wife of St. Joseph, and the greatest of all Christian saints. The Virgin Mother “was, after her Son, exalted by divine grace above all angels and men”. Mary is venerated with a special cult, called by St. Thomas Aquinas, hyperdulia, as the highest of God’s creatures."

From the CCC;vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

 

[Mark121359]

Oh come on, I have seen posts in this thread that by themselves disqualify the poster, showing just how much they know about Marian devotion, to the extent that quite a few fall into heresy, ex. equating Our Lady to other saints (while the Church offers her a cult higher than that of the saints, though infinitely lower than that of God). Quite amusing to see one such poster come out and judge others.

If anyone takes time to stop judging and read Treatise on the True Devotion, they’d understand the difference between legitimate cult to Our Lady and erroneous forms of cult attributed to her. So let us briefly go over the latter, praying the Almighty to grant us just enough humbleness to be open to the teachings of the Church on these matters.

In what devotion to Mary consists

First principle: Christ must be the ultimate end of all devotions

False devotions to Our Lady

Critical devotees

Scrupulous devotees

Superficial devotees

Presumptuous devotees

Inconstant devotees

Hypocritical devotees

Self-interested devotees

The Treatise continues:

Excellent post!!! I completely agree.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Again, I see in scripture that God used many of his creation in miraculous ways. They got special graces & enlightenment that you / I haven’t. Job, Noah, Elijah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, John the Baptist, and Mary too. But, of all, scripture seems to support John The Baptist as the most spiritually graced & sinless of all.
Why some today want to put Mary out front as the Mediatrix of all graces… is not borne out by what Christ taught & the Apostles recorded. They were/are all Superstar saints, but I don’t think any of them considered themselves sinless … any w/o the need for redemption thru Christ.
Mary said " do whatever Christ teaches" … she desired the total focus upon her Son, who she declared in scrpicture as “her saviour” !!!

For us to put the spotlight on Mary, is not her wish … or Christ’s. It should be Holy Christ … not Holy Mary. Blessed and graced Mary, mother of our Lord, and greatest among women … that is supportable and valid, and should be taught !!! We honor her, not worship her.

Sorry I am too tired to answer any of these except to post this youtube video on the Biblical bases for Mariology: youtube.com/watch?v=bxCBxGmtUos

Please watch and if you have any questions just let us know.

 

[InJesusItrust]

I just has a dream about this, but Mary deserves the highest praise because she is a creature that God had chosen for this honor. She is the Mother of the Son, Spouse of the Spirit and Daughter of the Father. Scripture typifies her as the Ark, where an insult to her is an insult to the Lord.

Perhaps only a poet and writer than grasp clearly what raw intellect cannot. When I pray to Mary I ask her to lead me ever closer to the Lord and thank her for the sorrows she has suffered and still does for us. What do the weeping statues and apparitions mean otherwise?

 

[CaptFun]

+JMJ+

Sorry I am too tired to answer any of these except to post this youtube video on the Biblical bases for Mariology: youtube.com/watch?v=bxCBxGmtUos

Please watch and if you have any questions just let us know.

Thank you nuntym. I found that video very inspiring. It reminded me of many things I knew, but presented them all at once. Quite powerful. And a cause for rejoicing in the gift God has given us in Mary!

By their fruits you shall know them. Mary’s fruit was the greatest of all (save Jesus’) and she had a share in those fruits too!

 

[brb3]

The Virgin Mother “was, after her Son, exalted by divine grace above all angels and men”. Mary is venerated with a special cult, called by St. Thomas Aquinas, hyperdulia, as the highest of God’s creatures."

Any CULT, even ones started and fostered by T. AQUINAS, many centuries after the last Revelations to the Apostles, …give me concerns.
Men have always had a knack/bad habit for wanting to ADD OR SUBTRACT to God’s Word.

Scripture warns not to err by… “worshipping the creature, rather than the CREATOR”

 

[Brendan]

Why some today want to put Mary out front as the Mediatrix of all graces…** is not borne out by what Christ taught & the Apostles recorded**. .

Yes it is, the records left by the Apostles, in the form of both Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, do support Mary’s role as Queen of Heaven and Earth, and of the Mediatrix of all Grace.

The question for you is, what do you think the roles mentioned above mean?

What does it mean to be the Mediatrix of all Grace?

 

[brb3]

Yes it is, the records left by the Apostles, in the form of both Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, do support Mary’s role as Queen of Heaven and Earth, and of the Mediatrix
of all graces.

U need to cite ur sources, on apostles & scripture…supporting Mary in the Meditrix role, via whom all grace flows to the Church.

 

[R_C]

Any CULT, even ones started and fostered by T. AQUINAS

Must … call … inquisition

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

U need to cite ur sources, on apostles & scripture…supporting Mary in the Meditrix role, via whom all grace flows to the Church.

Oh goodness, hating something so much that one’s grammar and spelling gets chucked out the window always looks pathetic. And when that something is the Church’s doctrines on Mary… :dts: