Church Mariology making me nuts!

[inkaneer]

Ok … here we read what the Church teaches on Mary. How does her role differ from any of the other SuperSaints on Church calender?

Can’t John the Baptist, any of the Apostles, Stephen, or the great Martyrs of Renown … intercede or benefit us ( in this life ) equally well,… in our efforts to persevere ?

Why do we need to elevate one of our SuperSaints to Mediatrix of All Grace status ?
Especially when we recall Christ’s words to us on Mary, when a Jewish lady tried to promote Mary to the SuperWoman status …and Christ would not hear/acquiesce to promotion of Mary above all the other faithful ChristIans.

The answer to your question is summed up in the title of Mary, Queen of Heaven. Scripture tells us that when Jesus ascended to heaven He sat at the right hand of the Father. That means the Father sits to the left of Jesus. Recall that James and John wanted to sit at Jesus’ right and left and Jesus said that whoever sits at His right and left was determined ‘long ago’. Mary as Queen of Heaven sits to Jesus right. Mary is a far better intercessor than John the Baptist, Peter, Paul any of the apostles or any of the great saints because Jesus will not refuse her.

 

[Fragile]

So, Jesus is going to refuse Peter, Paul, James…as perfect Saints in Heaven, they’re going to ask for something inappropriate?

 

[R_C]

So, Jesus is going to refuse Peter, Paul, James…as perfect Saints in Heaven, they’re going to ask for something inappropriate?

I don’t understand your question I think it is rooted on partial understanding of grace and the heavenly hierarchy. I cannot think of any better example than that of the Doctor of the Church s. Therese of Lisieux:

I told you once how it puzzled me that God did not give everyone the same amount of glory in Heaven, and I feared they could not all be happy. You sent me off to fetch one of Father’s big glasses and made me put my little thimble by the side of it; then you filled them both up with water and asked me which I thought was the fuller. I had to admit that one was just as full as the other because neither of them would hold any more.

See? All saints are filled with grace, all saints are perfect since they have been admitted to the Beatific Vision. All are filled with grace to the fullness! But not all in the same way

In a way this reminds me of how St. Augustine speaks of God’s omnipresence:

thou art wholly present everywhere, yet in such a way that nothing contains thee wholly …] And I reflected on this and saw that in the objects themselves there is a kind of beauty which comes from their forming a whole and another kind of beauty that comes from mutual fitness–as the harmony of one part of the body with its whole

@brb3 Thank you. :hug1: I can “feel” the love of God in your words. Trust me, I have heard and read arguments from some who dislike and even hate the Blessed Virgin. I know the difference I can tell that you profoundly love her.

 

[DasGood]

I would just simply say to keep faith in the Church’s doctrines and know that the Church knows best in these matters. Whatever you find in your investigation or have found know that the Truth is found here.

 

[Fragile]

Mary is a far better intercessor than John the Baptist, Peter, Paul any of the apostles or any of the great saints because Jesus will not refuse her.

My question was in response to this…

 

[De_Montfort]

My question was in response to this…

Mary is above all angels and saints, no one has or ever will give Glory to God as the incomparable Virgin Mother of God.

 

[Fragile]

I never said anything about that, am I arguing w/myself?! :banghead:

 

[ctstar]

Our Church’s adoration/worship/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of the Mother of Jesus is really causing me a big stumbling block in my effort to be “fully Catholic.” Mary looms so large, just absolutely enormous, in the theology and practice of the Church, that one really seems to have to make a decision about her in one’s faith.

Let me say, that I consider Mary Blessed, as she said all generations would. However, I cannot get past the fact that a great deal of the Mariology of the Church is unbiblical. Most especially, Jesus’ own comments, on multiple occasions, seem to refute the elevation of Mary that has occurred. His statement that “rather, blessed are those who do the will of my Father in Heaven,” in reply to the woman who said, “blessed is the womb that bore you,” in particular appears to preclude the Mariology that has become so widespread.

I just came to this site tonight to try to get some guidance and clarity on the issue. I notice one thread where one Catholic is suggesting that Mary, via her DNA, really is part of the Eucharist too. This in some ways seems the logical conclusion of Catholic Mariology–she is getting so large that it seems she will eclipse Christ at some point.

If anyone has a good recommendation where I can read something that really addresses this question at a deep level, I would like to hear it. I have read a ton of apologetics already, and I am not buying the normal stuff that says things like “co-redeemer really means that she is redeeming with Jesus, because her fiat allowed HIm to come into the world.” I don’t want to hear the bases for Catholic veneration of Mary–I already know that. Rather, I am interested in hearing about how anyone else might similarly be stuggling with this issue, or how they overcame it. Peacve.

Hi,
I have always had inner conflict regarding this so I know you feel…After reading and studying the New Testament over and over again and after many hours of prayers, I know and have faith that Jesus is the Word. Jesus also said " I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE and NO-ONE comes to the Father except through ME. Jesus is very clear when He says “I” and “ME”. My understanding of this then is-do what Jesus says and this is what I do. No-more inner conflict…I hope this helps…

 

[stewstew03]

Hi,
I have always had inner conflict regarding this so I know you feel…After reading and studying the New Testament over and over again and after many hours of prayers, I know and have faith that Jesus is the Word. Jesus also said " I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE and NO-ONE comes to the Father except through ME. Jesus is very clear when He says “I” and “ME”. My understanding of this then is-do what Jesus says and this is what I do. No-more inner conflict…I hope this helps…

Welcome to CAF ctstar.

As you continue to learn about Catholicism here, you will discover that everything you just wrote is entirely consistent with Catholic teaching.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hi,
I have always had inner conflict regarding this so I know you feel…After reading and studying the New Testament over and over again and after many hours of prayers, I know and have faith that Jesus is the Word. Jesus also said " I am the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE and NO-ONE comes to the Father except through ME. Jesus is very clear when He says “I” and “ME”. My understanding of this then is-do what Jesus says and this is what I do. No-more inner conflict…I hope this helps…

ctstar,

The inner conflict is the struggle on the path to understanding. I wouldn’t take it as an affirmation from God of your prophetic thinking. Lets be clear there.

If no-one comes to the Father but through Jesus, what does that have to do with getting to Jesus? There’s a very real history of the Church which consistently coins the same phrase.

Queen of Heaven is not new St Athanasius along with many early church fathers expressed thoughts on this.

“It is becoming for you, O Mary, to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who bestowed upon you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Come to our aid for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master Who was born of you. For this reason you are called “full of grace.”
Be mindful of us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, O Virgin, full of grace.”

If you won’t believe what he said here, what would you believe about the Incarnation from the Bible? In other words he was right about the Incarnation which btw “all” Christians believe as a basic, yet he was wrong about Marys role with the incarnation? That lacks logic and reason.

Study of the Bible is a step on a very long stairway.

The Church that Jesus built and mentioned in Matthew, was established “before” the Bible, and more “important” its still there. That Church compiled the approved Canons on the Bible, the Bible reflects the mass/Liturgy. Only once Christ mentioned “Church” in the Bible, but you don’t seem to pay much attention to that verse. Why is that?

 

[Fragile]

Only once?

 

[ctstar]

ctstar,

The inner conflict is the struggle on the path to understanding. I wouldn’t take it as an affirmation from God of your prophetic thinking. Lets be clear there.

If no-one comes to the Father but through Jesus, what does that have to do with getting to Jesus? There’s a very real history of the Church which consistently coins the same phrase.

Queen of Heaven is not new St Athanasius along with many early church fathers expressed thoughts on this.

“It is becoming for you, O Mary, to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who bestowed upon you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Come to our aid for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master Who was born of you. For this reason you are called “full of grace.”
Be mindful of us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, O Virgin, full of grace.”

If you won’t believe what he said here, what would you believe about the Incarnation from the Bible? In other words he was right about the Incarnation which btw “all” Christians believe as a basic, yet he was wrong about Marys role with the incarnation? That lacks logic and reason.

Study of the Bible is a step on a very long stairway.

The Church that Jesus built and mentioned in Matthew, was established “before” the Bible, and more “important” its still there. That Church compiled the approved Canons on the Bible, the Bible reflects the mass/Liturgy. Only once Christ mentioned “Church” in the Bible, but you don’t seem to pay much attention to that verse. Why is that?

Sorry, my English is probably not that good… My faith is that Jesus Christ is the Saviour and He is the WAY , the TRUTH and the LIFE and that NO-ONE can come to the FATHER except through HIM. John 14:6. So EVERY word, EVERY act, EVERY promise, EVERY commandment that Jesus spoke or made, I accept as the WAY and TRUTH to everlasting LIFE. So, I guess that what I am trying to simply say is that I have no inner conflict any longer because with Jesus in my heart, everything becomes clear, simple and easy. If this is what He said: " It is becoming for you, O Mary, to be mindful of us, as you stand near Him who bestowed upon you all graces, for you are the Mother of God and our Queen. Come to our aid for the sake of the King, the Lord God and Master Who was born of you. For this reason you are called “full of grace.”
Be mindful of us, most holy Virgin, and bestow on us gifts from the riches of your graces, O Virgin, full of grace", then I believe that as well. "In even simpler English-I believe EVERYTHING He said and that is how I “get” to Jesus. Again, this works for me and I feel so blessed to have God in my heart and by my side.

 

[Fragile]

I think most of us Christians, unless we’re idiots, know that Christ is no more or less merciful now than He was in the Old Testament. But yet we see all through the New, and actually in the Old, Jesus beckoning people to come to Him, and that He will in no way cast out those who do. So I do not believe that we need to get Mary to somehow plead our case to her Son before He will accept us, and if this is an actual dogma of the Church, that’s a hurdle I can’t make.

 

[brb3]

The answer to your question is summed up in the title of Mary, Queen of Heaven. Scripture tells us that when Jesus ascended to heaven He sat at the right hand of the Father. That means the Father sits to the left of Jesus. Recall that James and John wanted to sit at Jesus’ right and left and Jesus said that whoever sits at His right and left was determined ‘long ago’. Mary as Queen of Heaven sits to Jesus right. Mary is a far better intercessor than John the Baptist, Peter, Paul any of the apostles or any of the great saints because Jesus will not refuse her

.

Interesting…but, just ur imagination/speculation right ?
MARY sitting to Rt of Christ …in honored spot ?

How could we possibly know such info in this age ?

 

[brb3]

Also, I find it dangerous theology to say that Christ won’t or can’t refuse Mary …but can/would for John Baptist, Apostles,or any of SuperSaints.

These ideas don’t comport with Scripture !!

 

[inkaneer]

My question was in response to this…

Please note I did not say that Jesus would refuse the request of Peter or any other saint. I said that Mary was Queen of Heaven and thus Jesus would not refuse any request made by her.

 

[inkaneer]

Interesting…but, just ur imagination/speculation right ?
MARY sitting to Rt of Christ …in honored spot ?

How could we possibly know such info in this age ?

From the Bible. In fact there is more biblical support for this than there is for the Trinity. And let’s face it protestants should have a lot of trouble with the Trinity because the Trinity doctrine is found nowhere in scripture. At least not the way we and Trinitarian protestants understand it. That is because we understand the Trinity in pagan terms. Specifically from Greek philosophy. The idea of person, substance, essence, nature, etc. are totally foreign to the scriptures as well as Jewish philosophy but these are Greek philosophical terms that the church used to clarify the trinitarian nature of God so that we may understand it better. Admittedly the clarification is not perfect because how can one with a finite mind fully understand an infinite concept?

 

[brb3]

I think most of us Christians, unless we’re idiots, know that Christ is no more or less merciful now than He was in the Old Testament. But yet we see all through the New, and actually in the Old, Jesus beckoning people to come to Him, and that He will in no way cast out those who do. So I do not believe that we need to get Mary to somehow plead our case to her Son before He will accept us, and if this is an actual dogma of the Church, that’s a hurdle I can’t make

.

I share your angst !! Nevertheless, I have learn over the years that 98 % of what Catholic Church teaches, that I once thought was errant, has been shown to be correct.

So, whenever I come across a Church teaching that I think is wrong … I never dismiss w/o due process & a full debate with the Catholic brethren. Often, there are so many shades of gray, its hard to be sure on certain Catholic doctrines …especially so with these many teachings on Mary …that were not a part of belief of Catholicism during the early centuries. Marian teachings have a high hurdle to clear before I see all the gray areas becoming black & white for Catholics.

 

[inkaneer]

Also, I find it dangerous theology to say that Christ won’t or can’t refuse Mary …but can/would for John Baptist, Apostles,or any of SuperSaints.

These ideas don’t comport with Scripture !!

Again I say that you should not put words in my mouth. I never said anything about Jesus refusing anyone. All I said was that He will not refuse Mary. And that is supported by the scriptures. Now here is a hint. Look at the conversation between Jesus and Mary at the wedding feast at Cana. Did the gospel writer capture all that was said between Mary and Jesus? Or is something missing?

I would submit to you that the answer to both questions is, yes.

 

[stewstew03]

I share your angst !! Nevertheless, I have learn over the years that 98 % of what Catholic Church teaches, that I once thought was errant, has been shown to be correct.

So, whenever I come across a Church teaching that I think is wrong … I never dismiss w/o due process & a full debate with the Catholic brethren. Often, there are so many shades of gray, its hard to be sure on certain Catholic doctrines …especially so with these many teachings on Mary …that were not a part of belief of Catholicism during the early centuries. Marian teachings have a high hurdle to clear before I see all the gray areas becoming black & white for Catholics.

What is the 2% that is false? Is the Catholic Church not the Body of Christ? Is the Pope not really the Vicar of Christ? Can a priest not really forgive sins, or change bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus Christ? If only 2% of this is false, then the Church is a false prophet.

:bible1: