Church of Christ member condemns Catholics Christian Christmas Tradition as Pagan...

[Bill_Pick]

I’m doing my best, Bill. It’s a rocky road sometimes.

Anna

Anna, You are doing a great job and may be the best Apologist on this froum,God bless you

 

[Lycorth]

Well arguably Christmas (December 25th) was a pagan holiday (an imperial holiday of the sun god), but the true birthday of Jesus is simply unknown. In fact scholars can’t even figure whether he was born 4 AD or 6 AD, much less whether he was born in summer, winter, spring, or fall. The holiday really didn’t come into being until the early 5th century.

My point exactly. We don’t know when Christ was born, and evidently that’s not important. The celebration of the event is, and two birds were killed with one stone when the celebration of Christ’s birth was set on the date of the pagan Sol Invictus feast, effectively retaining the holiday and the specialness of that time of year for the people and converting the holiday to Christianity as well.

Back when I used to be a believer, I was Presbyterian (although I also have plenty of Catholic in my family background). I remember in a sermon, our pastor talked about the pagan roots of the holiday, but he framed it in an interesting way. He attributed significance to the idea of Christmas replacing a pagan holiday (signifying a victory of monotheism over paganism). Of course, in Calvinist fashion, he suggested it was an act of providence (with contemplated aforethought on the part of god).

I actually think that is the best explanation I’ve ever heard on this subject.

It’s a very good one, I think.

With regard to the Church of Christ member, I’m really not sure how to address that sort of sentiment. As for me, I don’t believe a drop of it anymore, but I still think it’s a shame that people find such stupid things to fight about (considering we all, at the most basic level, share the same western ideals)?

However, the Catholic Church is pretty much the source of those Western ideals, so defense of the Church is defense of the source of our civilization, even if that amount to defending the Church’s instituting of Christmas over a pre-existing pagan holiday.

Of course, there is a massive amount of stupidity involved in the bickering, since the critics of Christmas fail to realize or remember (or sometimes outright omit) that without the Church, the founders of their sects would not have had a Christianity to twist and truncate into a new sect to begin with.

The fact is, it is almost certainty true that if there were no Catholic Church, if Christianity were never adopted by the Romans and thrusted onto its citizens, there would never have been a Church of Christ. The unfortunate thing is while the reformation was shaped on intellectual grounds, religion is not (at its most basis level) an intellectual sport. Therefore, most of the bickering back and forth is by those with little education, who don’t wouldn’t recognize a history book if they woke up next to one.

Because, of course, only atheists are intellectual?

 

[kalt]

Well, you can do what my poor mother did; my first name is DEFINITELY the name of a pagan goddess. You can’t get much more pagan than “Diana,” now, can you? Mom loved the sound of the name, though. What SHE did about it was give me “Christine” as a middle name. Now that royally confused things.

A woman named Diana was beatified in 1891. If you were born after that , I think your name wouldn’t be considered “pagan”.

Unless, of course, anything that ever was pagan is always pagan.

Bl. Diana
Feastday: June 9

A member of the d’Andalo family, Diana was born near Bologna Italy, and convinced her father to withdraw his opposition to the founding of a Dominican priory on land he owned in Bologna. Dominic received her vow of virginity, but she was forced to remain at home by her family. Later she joined the Augustinians at Roxana but was forcibly removed from the convent by her family. She was injured in the struggle but later escaped and returned to Roxana. Sometime later Blessed Jordan of Saxony convinced the family to found a Dominican convent in 1222 for her, staffed with Diana and four companions and four nuns brought from Rome, two of them Cecilia and Amata. Diana died on January 9, and when Cecilia and Amata died, they were buried with her. All three were beatified in 1891. Feast day is June 9th.

 

[bridgeforsale]

However, the Catholic Church is pretty much the source of those Western ideals, so defense of the Church is defense of the source of our civilization, even if that amount to defending the Church’s instituting of Christmas over a pre-existing pagan holiday.

Modern western values were formed despite Christianity (not because of them). This country was formed by enlightenment values, which were the formulations of mostly rationanlist secular thinkers (not inquisition theocrats or reformation fanatics).

I bet you think guys like Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, etc. were a bunch of bible pounders?

Because, of course, only atheists are intellectual?

I like to think we agnostics are as well

 

[Lycorth]

**Modern **western values were formed despite Christianity (not because of them). This country was formed by enlightenment values, which were the formulations of mostly rationanlist secular thinkers (not inquisition theocrats or reformation fanatics).

Yes, modern values were. I’m not Catholic because I believe in modern “values”.

I bet you think guys like Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, etc. were a bunch of bible pounders?

I wouldn’t place too much money on that bet if I were you.

I like to think we agnostics are as well

I can see that

 

[bridgeforsale]

Yes, modern values were. I’m not Catholic because I believe in modern “values”.

Ancient values like slavery, subjugation of women, burning people alive for religious dissent, segregation, etc. Now those were the good old days

My favorite was using leeches for blood transfusions, and back alley abortions. Oh, why we can’t just go back to those nifty horse and buggy’s (and I can’t stand electricity either, or running water, or sewage … they’re evil, they prevent people from dying of cholera like the good Lord intended). Don’t get me going about vitamin C, antibiotics, or asprin either (I’m liable to really get angry).

Sorry buddy I couldn’t resist (you sort of walked into it)

 

[Lycorth]

Ancient values like slavery, subjugation of women, burning people alive for religious dissent, segregation, etc. Now those were the good old days

Actually, the Church opposed slavery and slavery was pretty much over as a Western institution - until the Roman-infatuated “Enlightenment” brought the concept back. Catholics didn’t have African slaves working European plantations, after all…

Women were not subjugated anymore than men were. Feminist mythology, there. There were such a thing as gender roles, yes, but that hardly amounts to subjugation.

Burning people alive for dissent - the Church never did that. Some secular authorities did for political reasons (Joan d’Arc comes to mind), or Protestant states (the only witch-burnings occurred in Protestant countries, actually). Don’t blame the Church for things that only ever happened in a polemicist’s imagination.

Segregation? Of Christians and Jews, do you mean? The two groups rarely got along, so keeping fighting parties apart ought to be commended.

I mean a world of beautiful culture, rich in moral virtue, without anywhere near the rottenness of modern American culture. Yes, those were the good old days, indeed

My favorite was using leeches for blood transfusions,

Which is quite the red herring, since that’s a critique of the medical field, not religion. Medicine simply hadn’t yet developed to the point that leeches were no longer used.

Leeches, by the by, were used for bloodletting, not transfusions. Might want to double-check ere you click “submit post”

and back alley abortions.

Boo-hoo. Women had to sneak around in back alleys to have their children murdered. Such repression!

Oh, why we can’t just go back to those nifty horse and buggy’s (and I can’t stand electricity either, or running water, or sewage … they’re evil, they prevent people from dying of cholera like the good Lord intended). Don’t get me going about vitamin C, antibiotics, or asprin either (I’m liable to really get angry).

Funny, how you are the one bringing up red herrings like horses and buggies and cholera, whereas I am the one talking about virtue and morality. But, to the self-righteous “freethinker”, anything that can be used against the Church is fair game, even if you do seem to confuse Catholics with Quakers or whatever it is that’s in that interesting little mind of yours.

Humorous posts, though

Sorry buddy I couldn’t resist (you sort of walked into it)

I’d daresay you just did, yourself. Thanks for helping me to remember why I returned to the Church and left the angry, nihilistic world of “freethinking” behind me

 

[dianaiad]

Ancient values like slavery, subjugation of women, burning people alive for religious dissent, segregation, etc. Now those were the good old days

My favorite was using leeches for blood transfusions

Leeches were never used for blood transfusions, m’friend…and it turns out that medical science still uses them. They are quite valuable; the modern practice of reattaching severed limbs and digits wouldn’t be as successful as it is if these little blood suckers weren’t around doing their bit–which is to encourage the growth and development of blood vessels where they are needed, and to prevent blood clots at the site of reattachment.

They are also VERY good for treating severe bruising. Though what Catholicism–or religion at all, for that matter, has to do with leaches I am at a loss to understand.

, and back alley abortions.

Those are still around, y’know.

Oh, why we can’t just go back to those nifty horse and buggy’s (and I can’t stand electricity either, or running water, or sewage … they’re evil, they prevent people from dying of cholera like the good Lord intended). Don’t get me going about vitamin C, antibiotics, or asprin either (I’m liable to really get angry).

Sorry buddy I couldn’t resist (you sort of walked into it)

Interesting. Of course, willow bark (from where aspirin comes) has been used to treat fevers for longer than Christianity has been around, sailors have been using the properties of vitamin c to prevent scurvy for a VERY long time (why do you THINK English sailers are called 'limey’s?") the Romans had pretty darned good sewer systems (and flush toilets, too, come to think of it)…and along with the flush toilets came running water. True, electricity for powering motors was a fairly late development, but people have known about it for considerably longer than you seem to think.

…and NONE of this has anything to do with moral values.

True, slavery is not a good thing. Too bad it’s still around. Women are still being subjugated, and religious dissenters are still being murdered for daring to dissent.

But…the Catholics aren’t doing that. I can’t help but wonder what on earth your point is?

 

[dianaiad]

Actually, the Church opposed slavery and slavery was pretty much over as a Western institution - until the Roman-infatuated “Enlightenment” brought the concept back. Catholics didn’t have African slaves working European plantations, after all…

I’m sorry, Lycorth, but they did.In fact, it can be argued that the practice of enslaving African natives, thus making slavery pretty much a matter of dark skinned people BEING slaves, can be dumped directly at the Catholic doorstep. Popes and religious orders owned slaves, so…before you get all self-righteous about Catholicism and slavery, take a giant step back and go look at your history.

Women were not subjugated anymore than men were. Feminist mythology, there. There were such a thing as gender roles, yes, but that hardly amounts to subjugation.

Oh, dear. Having different gender roles is fine; I actually believe that there ARE roles more appropriate to one gender than the other, generally. However, When you get people like Thomas Aquinas in the mix, as well as other church fathers (and rules about property, and the role of women–and who could beat whom…)the idea of subjugation of women is pretty solidly proven.

Burning people alive for dissent - the Church never did that. Some secular authorities did for political reasons (Joan d’Arc comes to mind), or Protestant states (the only witch-burnings occurred in Protestant countries, actually). Don’t blame the Church for things that only ever happened in a polemicist’s imagination.

Actually, you might be right about that one. Catholics didn’t actually do the burning. They convicted the heretics and then turned them over to secular authorities for burning. (shrug)

I suppose you can use that as a technicality, though I think it’s waffling.

Segregation? Of Christians and Jews, do you mean? The two groups rarely got along, so keeping fighting parties apart ought to be commended.

This post is making my teeth itch.

I mean a world of beautiful culture, rich in moral virtue, without anywhere near the rottenness of modern American culture. Yes, those were the good old days, indeed

Which is quite the red herring, since that’s a critique of the medical field, not religion. Medicine simply hadn’t yet developed to the point that leeches were no longer used.

Leeches, by the by, were used for bloodletting, not transfusions. Might want to double-check ere you click “submit post”

Boo-hoo. Women had to sneak around in back alleys to have their children murdered. Such repression!

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of being told that they didn’t actually have souls, were the property of their husbands, and could be beaten whenever…y’know, that sort of thing.

Funny, how you are the one bringing up red herrings like horses and buggies and cholera, whereas I am the one talking about virtue and morality. But, to the self-righteous “freethinker”, anything that can be used against the Church is fair game, even if you do seem to confuse Catholics with Quakers or whatever it is that’s in that interesting little mind of yours.

Humorous posts, though

I’d daresay you just did, yourself. Thanks for helping me to remember why I returned to the Church and left the angry, nihilistic world of “freethinking” behind me

Ok, your position is as indefensible as his is.

 

[bridgeforsale]

Actually, the Church opposed slavery and slavery was pretty much over as a Western institution - until the Roman-infatuated “Enlightenment” brought the concept back. Catholics didn’t have African slaves working European plantations, after all…

Really, I always love this stuff, because it’s virtually always true that the perceptions of believers have little correlation with reality.

Do a little research on the papal bull issued in 1452, called Dum Diversas.

Women were not subjugated anymore than men were. Feminist mythology, there. There were such a thing as gender roles, yes, but that hardly amounts to subjugation.

Feminist mythology eh? The degree of ignorance in that statement is disturbing quite frankly.

Burning people alive for dissent - the Church never did that.

Hey, why stop dreaming up an entire new history now … you’re on such a roll

Segregation? Of Christians and Jews, do you mean? The two groups rarely got along, so keeping fighting parties apart ought to be commended.

Golly, I haven’t even mentioned Catholic antisemitism (but now that you mentioned it, oh yeah, you guys invented Jew hating too)

Thanks for helping me to remember why I returned to the Church and left the angry, nihilistic world of “freethinking” behind me

We only recruit smart people anyway

 

[Lycorth]

I’m sorry, Lycorth, but they did.In fact, it can be argued that the practice of enslaving African natives, thus making slavery pretty much a matter of dark skinned people BEING slaves, can be dumped directly at the Catholic doorstep. Popes and religious orders owned slaves, so…before you get all self-righteous about Catholicism and slavery, take a giant step back and go look at your history.

I have, and the Church has also opposed slavery. Sure, some did own slaves, but let’s not get on some White-bashing guilt trip, here. One thing I will never claim is that all churchmen are or were perfect - just that the religion is.

Oh, dear. Having different gender roles is fine; I actually believe that there ARE roles more appropriate to one gender than the other, generally. However, When you get people like Thomas Aquinas in the mix, as well as other church fathers (and rules about property, and the role of women–and who could beat whom…)the idea of subjugation of women is pretty solidly proven.

…which has been an issue since pagan times. It, again, was also something the Church ended up opposing.

Actually, you might be right about that one. Catholics didn’t actually do the burning. They convicted the heretics and then turned them over to secular authorities for burning. (shrug)

I suppose you can use that as a technicality, though I think it’s waffling.

Hey, anything that makes the Church look bad, right?

This post is making my teeth itch.

Then scratch them.

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of being told that they didn’t actually have souls, were the property of their husbands, and could be beaten whenever…y’know, that sort of thing.

See above.

Ok, your position is as indefensible as his is.

You’re free to believe what you like.

Really, I always love this stuff, because it’s virtually always true that the perceptions of believers have little correlation with reality.

Or those of unbelievers.

Do a little research on the papal bull issued in 1452, called Dum Diversas.

So? That was a papal bull, not an ex cathedra teaching on slavery.

Funny, no condemnation of the glorious American government, which was never Catholic (and nominally Christian at best, and that rarely) and the American slave trade. Nor of the fact that no slaver ever went to Africa and picked slaves off a slave tree, but rather purchased them from their own tribes, who were not Catholic nor Christian and evidently had no problem selling their own people off.

That’s ok. I didn’t expect that to be brought up.

Feminist mythology eh? The degree of ignorance in that statement is disturbing quite frankly.

Not half as disturbing as the ignorance I’ve read in your remarks thus far.

Hey, why stop dreaming up an entire new history now … you’re on such a roll

I’d rather let you keep on dreaming up yours

Golly, I haven’t even mentioned Catholic antisemitism (but now that you mentioned it, oh yeah, you guys invented Jew hating too)

Aw, now I feel guilty for being a Jew-hating Gentile. Didn’t know I was, but I must be. You said so, after all

We only recruit smart people anyway

No, just smart asses. Case in point

 

[KathleenGee]

I lived in a former Portuguese colony…the priests were continually speaking to these people to be kinder to the natives…they came there for money…when the colony collapsed, they fled the country.

I was in a parish that harbored a number of traditionalists one step away from leaving for a schismatic one…it was very difficult, the priests constantly exhorting diversity, balance, kindness, not judging…

The Spanish Inquisition Dominicans exonerated so many individuals brought forward by laymen…

The Church has condemned slavery…but slavery was also a fact of life in ancient Israel…when someone owed another, that person was as a slave to the lender until the debt paid…ancient Roman times, we know about that slavery…there was the European white woman slave trade…3/4’s of the world was enslaved one way or another by 1/4 in the 1700’s…

 

[marlo]

If the Church of Christ member you are referring is the Iglesia ni Cristo a local protestant church in the Philippines, then you can tell him that the Iglesia ni Cristo previously celebrated christmas and was later changed. This information is mostly unknown to Iglesia ni Cristo (church of christ) members, and when they do, they will be shocked,

PM me and i can send you information on this

Hi,

I recently had a discussion with a Church of Christ member and wished him a Merry X-Mas. When I did they he came back to me saying" Christians the world over, just like I, do not celebrate pagan rituals that wrongly ascribe Jesus birth in the wrong time of year with a holiday tradition that is not biblical. Thus Christmas is just another commercial holiday, time I can spend with family like we did this year in Orlando"

He basically condenmed Christmas and called it a pagan holiday that the Catholic Church invented in 400 ad or somewhere around there. I know that Christs birth is not exact, but he told me that Catholics made Christmas in the early Church history to convert pagans.

I think he is a little radical and of course he told me “these traditions of men or satanic and demonic.” I was greatly hurt and could not understand this. Can someone give me history and on Christmas and respond to his claims with facts? Thanks and happy new year!