Church of Christ member condemns Catholics Christian Christmas Tradition as Pagan...

[Teneas]

Teneas,

You make a good point. Actually, this year, I was actually wondering what I would do when grandchildren come along, and I have no tree.

Anna

Buy a tree, and watch their faces grow with the joy that comes from it. Make sure, don’t know how your family reacts to Christ, that you let them know why you do it. That is to celebrate Christ’s birthday, and that, if you do presents, that you are showing Christ’s love through the season.

With my youngest son, I have two btw but oldest isn’t always with us, we tried to really enforce and teach him about Christ’s birthday. Not just focus on presents and Santa Claus. His name is Nicholas, and I gave him that name as it is my confirmation name. So, we have taught him that Saint Nicholas, aka Santa, brings presents to all the boys and girls in the world to celebrate Christ’s birthday.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m going to delete the rest of your post…just for space, so that I can deal with this issue only.

Symbols mean what the people using them think they mean–the symbol isn’t the thing. That’s what causes Protestants and others trouble when they start accusing Catholics of 'worshipping statues." They can’t seem to figure out that the statue of Mary is not Mary herself–and that reverence given to a statue is not given to the statue, but rather the person represented by that statue; the statue is an aid to concentration and a prompt to the proper spirit.

I understand that, at least. It seems to me that people who worry about symbols that used to be pagan are missing the point. They aren’t pagan NOW, and those Christians who use them do not see any pagan meaning in them. How many people know what the holly, the ivy, the evergreen and presents meant to the pagans who gave these symbols to us? If they don’t know what those meanings were, then does it MATTER what those meanings were? Mankind has been on the planet for a very long time. There are an incredible number of theistic systems out there, and something tells me that pretty much everything we can see, touch or hear has been used as a ‘pagan symbol’ of something at some time.

I doubt that God cares.

What He cares about is what WE use them for, and what WE think when we are using them. Now I happen to think that Jesus was born in April sometime. That doesn’t mean that celebrating His birth in December is a bad idea. In fact, I think it is a glorious idea. It means I get to celebrate twice. Who can possibly argue with that?

Diana

Diana,

It is good to run into you outside the Mormon Threads. I think many people would agree with you.

I haven’t come to a firm decision on the issue. I do think we should respect a Christian’s choice, either way.

Anna

 

[Ridgerunner]

Six months of the year are named after pagan gods or goddesses. And yet, we all use those names, including those who eschew all things they think are pagan in origin.

Every day of the week except two are named (in English) after a pagan god or goddess. So, for example, we speak of “Ash Wodin’s-day”, “Holy Thor’s-day”, “Good Freya’s-day”, “Holy Saturn’s-day”.

Parallels to pagan names or events do not make a thing pagan. The very essence of paganism is, however, the adoption of formulations that we believe will bend the will of the gods (or God) to our own. Certain protestant denominations (and C of C is one of them) are pagan to the core in expecting that following certain formulations will “compel” God to do this or that. The C of C insistence on the utter necessity of adult baptism is, starkly put, one of those things. While C of C variants differ, and though there are surely many of its members who are holy and virtuous people, they all insist on that. All other baptisms are fruitless in their minds, and the lack of the formulary baptism is a guaranteed ticket to hell. Adult baptism (has to be by immersion, by the way) pretty much guarantees salvation for some sects, including a lot of the C of C groups. A believed (but often erroneous and self-justifying) insistence on biblical formulations to the exclusion of all other beliefs is also pagan to the core.

The attempt to “bind” God, which is what paganism is, is not so very far removed from the effort of one angel to “be as God”. Not so very far removed at all.

 

[flightkid]

Thks guys for all your post on my question! It really helped! Happy New Year and GOd Bless!

 

[KathleenGee]

I would not be concerned about having festivals come from pagans.

We have to remember pagans are human beings.

Human beings have basic needs…bonding with others, rituals, celebrations…noting the change in seasons and preparing for them…finding beauty in these times, finding symbols and motifs…

The need to celebrate is a human need, not a pagan one. To celebrate is a form of thanks.

Gratitude is the foundation of holiness.

St. Paul said humankind can perceive the existence in God through nature…the one True God.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Buy a tree, and watch their faces grow with the joy that comes from it. Make sure, don’t know how your family reacts to Christ, that you let them know why you do it. That is to celebrate Christ’s birthday, and that, if you do presents, that you are showing Christ’s love through the season.

With my youngest son, I have two btw but oldest isn’t always with us, we tried to really enforce and teach him about Christ’s birthday. Not just focus on presents and Santa Claus. His name is Nicholas, and I gave him that name as it is my confirmation name. So, we have taught him that Saint Nicholas, aka Santa, brings presents to all the boys and girls in the world to celebrate Christ’s birthday.

The irony is my own consideration of the topic, is that my real first name was originally the name of a pagan goddess.

So, what’s a person to do?

Anna

 

[Bill_Pick]

The irony is my own consideration of the topic, is that my real first name was originally the name of a pagan goddess.

So, what’s a person to do?

Anna

Anna, Sorry I do not know,LOL if you find out what to do please tell me, I need all the help I can find. hang in there girl your OK

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, Sorry I do not know,LOL if you find out what to do please tell me, I need all the help I can find. hang in there girl your OK

I’m doing my best, Bill. It’s a rocky road sometimes.

Anna

 

[Ridgerunner]

The irony is my own consideration of the topic, is that my real first name was originally the name of a pagan goddess.

So, what’s a person to do?

Anna

Some of the saints and other holy people of the early Church had pagan names too. But that doesn’t make them pagan, or in some way unworthy.

 

[bridgeforsale]

Hi,

I recently had a discussion with a Church of Christ member and wished him a Merry X-Mas. When I did they he came back to me saying" Christians the world over, just like I, do not celebrate pagan rituals that wrongly ascribe Jesus birth in the wrong time of year with a holiday tradition that is not biblical. Thus Christmas is just another commercial holiday, time I can spend with family like we did this year in Orlando"

He basically condenmed Christmas and called it a pagan holiday that the Catholic Church invented in 400 ad or somewhere around there. I know that Christs birth is not exact, but he told me that Catholics made Christmas in the early Church history to convert pagans.

I think he is a little radical and of course he told me “these traditions of men or satanic and demonic.” I was greatly hurt and could not understand this. Can someone give me history and on Christmas and respond to his claims with facts? Thanks and happy new year!

Nonetheless, he’s a member of a church which is basically an offshoot of the CC

Oh, remind him that reverend Jeremiah Wright is from his church next time you speak to him

 

[Bill_Pick]

do the Church of Christ believe in the Trinty

 

[Bill_Pick]

goggle in the word CHRISTMAS

WHY

 

[dianaiad]

The irony is my own consideration of the topic, is that my real first name was originally the name of a pagan goddess.

So, what’s a person to do?

Anna

Well, you can do what my poor mother did; my first name is DEFINITELY the name of a pagan goddess. You can’t get much more pagan than “Diana,” now, can you? Mom loved the sound of the name, though. What SHE did about it was give me “Christine” as a middle name. Now that royally confused things.

 

[Teneas]

The irony is my own consideration of the topic, is that my real first name was originally the name of a pagan goddess.

So, what’s a person to do?

Anna

I don’t suppose your real first name is Anna then? If it is…then you are in good company as Christ’s own grandmother held that name. Though most call her Saint Ann I believe.

 

[Ignatius]

I recently had a discussion with a Church of Christ member

Yes, it seems a lot of Protestant ministers are following the JW lead and then turning around to spread the poision throughout their own congregations. Very sad indeed.

 

[adelore]

adelore,

I really appreciate your comments, especially knowing that you went through a similar period of questioning the celebration of these holidays. As I said, this year I really missed the Christmas tree and decorations. I did, also, feel very sad.

As you and others have pointed out, it is really impossible to eliminate all things pagan, since pagan influences are everywhere.

My questioning of these holidays did not start with any religious group. I was studying the history of Judaism, Christianity, other religions, and the history of paganism. There was a book written by Gnostics, that I found very disturbing. It was a difficult book to get through, mainly because the Gnostic beliefs are so offensive to our Lord. The authors gave a list of all the similarities between Christ and the myths of pagan gods. Dec. 25th was on the list and other things as well.

So, I began to study the history of Christmas, Easter, etc. That’s when I learned of the pagan origins of many of our Christian celebrations. When I did research online, I found Christian groups who do not celebrate Christmas, etc. I was actually rather surprised.

I have also had some rather scary experiences with objects I had in my house. I won’t go into all the details. It’s a long story.

Also, I worked, several years, with Satanic cult survivors–objects and symbols were vital to them. Another long, scary story.

Anyway, I’m still not sure where I stand on this. There are many things to consider. I have found that many Christians criticize those who choose to eliminate the pagan elements in Christmas and Easter. I do think we should respect one another, regardless of our position on the issue.

Again, I appreciate your response.

Anna

Anna,

I’m glad I could help with at least letting you know someone had “felt” the same things you have and that I too…was trying to please our Lord, with what I thought was the right thing to do. (I think each person can only decide for themselves.)

The Lord will guide you, meanwhile, just keep doing what you do…Love the Lord with all your heart and keep praying. Loving our Lord doesn’t mean a person has to put up a tree or anything else. Sometimes doing nothing until you know, is the best thing to do.

On my third year of wondering about the Pagan Root of things…I still did not put up a tree…however I took the advice of a JW friend of mine, who also don’t put up trees and such… And she said to me, winter is so blah…so she put up lights around the ceiling of her kitchen, around some of her shelves…but of course no Christmas decorations at all. (she left them up until spring.) Her house looked pretty with the colored mini lights, but not really a Christmas look. I went home and did the same thing, it really perked me up, but I didn’t have anything Christmas out.

My grandmother years ago had a salt and pepper collection. She had it in a very large currio cabinet. because it didn’t have any lights of any kind, My grandmother took the small mini colored Christmas lights and put them on every shelf inside this cabinet. It was plugged in “Every Night of the Year.” Talk about pretty. (my cousin now has grandmas salt and pepper currio cabinet and she too lites it year round.)

So I have a Nativatiy that I put up and I leave it up year round…(I’m not into the Salt and Pepper thing like Grandma) in my cubboard with glass doors, you know for nick nacks.

On the third year I didn’t do the Christmas “types” of things, (trees, stockings ect.) this was the only thing I put up (along with Grandmas idea of lites) and to this day it stays up year round and is pluged in everynight. It does a few things for me. One I think about our Lords birth daily and all that he went through for us. It also catches peoples eyes who visit and it starts wonderful conversations about Our Lord…Year round.

So maybe you could during the winter months if they are blah for you like most of us who live in Michigan and other cold snowy states…Maybe you could find “whatever it is” to perk you up. A candle, a pretty flowering plant, a basket with flowers of some kind, just something…Not Christmas type, but something to make you smile during this time of year, to get you over the humps, so to speak.

Ok enough of my rambling…

 

[Lycorth]

The arrant nonsense of the accusation that Catholics who celebrate Christmas are celebrating pagan rituals aside, I choose to see Christmas (as well as Easter) as converted holidays. Much like how people who were once pagan converted and practiced the Faith, the pagan holidays that fell on those times of year were converted as well and, though the dates did not change, the entire focus of the holidays did.

We know there is nothing pagan about Christmas or Easter. We know that we do not dwell on pagan gods in the slightest and that we focus solely on Christ. But, polemics are hard to refute at times. However, celebrating Christian events on formerly pagan holidays is ultimately no different than the fact that virtually all our languages originated with pagan peoples - yet we do not give up speaking our languages because they had pagan origins, we simply eschew all paganism and focus solely on Christ.

People can be converted, languages can be converted - so can holidays. It’s all part and parcel of establishing a Christian society. Thank God someone did it.

 

[bridgeforsale]

The arrant nonsense of the accusation that Catholics who celebrate Christmas are celebrating pagan rituals aside, I choose to see Christmas (as well as Easter) as converted holidays. Much like how people who were once pagan converted and practiced the Faith, the pagan holidays that fell on those times of year were converted as well and, though the dates did not change, the entire focus of the holidays did.

We know there is nothing pagan about Christmas or Easter. We know that we do not dwell on pagan gods in the slightest and that we focus solely on Christ. But, polemics are hard to refute at times. However, celebrating Christian events on formerly pagan holidays is ultimately no different than the fact that virtually all our languages originated with pagan peoples - yet we do not give up speaking our languages because they had pagan origins, we simply eschew all paganism and focus solely on Christ.

People can be converted, languages can be converted - so can holidays. It’s all part and parcel of establishing a Christian society. Thank God someone did it.

Well arguably Christmas (December 25th) was a pagan holiday (an imperial holiday of the sun god), but the true birthday of Jesus is simply unknown. In fact scholars can’t even figure whether he was born 4 AD or 6 AD, much less whether he was born in summer, winter, spring, or fall. The holiday really didn’t come into being until the early 5th century.

Back when I used to be a believer, I was Presbyterian (although I also have plenty of Catholic in my family background). I remember in a sermon, our pastor talked about the pagan roots of the holiday, but he framed it in an interesting way. He attributed significance to the idea of Christmas replacing a pagan holiday (signifying a victory of monotheism over paganism). Of course, in Calvinist fashion, he suggested it was an act of providence (with contemplated aforethought on the part of god).

I actually think that is the best explanation I’ve ever heard on this subject.

With regard to the Church of Christ member, I’m really not sure how to address that sort of sentiment. As for me, I don’t believe a drop of it anymore, but I still think it’s a shame that people find such stupid things to fight about (considering we all, at the most basic level, share the same western ideals)?

The fact is, it is almost certainty true that if there were no Catholic Church, if Christianity were never adopted by the Romans and thrusted onto its citizens, there would never have been a Church of Christ. The unfortunate thing is while the reformation was shaped on intellectual grounds, religion is not (at its most basis level) an intellectual sport. Therefore, most of the bickering back and forth is by those with little education, who don’t wouldn’t recognize a history book if they woke up next to one.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I don’t suppose your real first name is Anna then? If it is…then you are in good company as Christ’s own grandmother held that name. Though most call her Saint Ann I believe.

Actually, my middle name is Ann. My former husband always called me Ann. When we lived in Greece, my Greek friends called me Anna. I write under the pen name Anna Scott. If I ever finish my novel, and get it published (need so many prayers,) I’ll probably use that pen name.

I may be in good company with the name “Ann”, but I’m no saint.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,

I’m glad I could help with at least letting you know someone had “felt” the same things you have and that I too…was trying to please our Lord, with what I thought was the right thing to do. (I think each person can only decide for themselves.)

The Lord will guide you, meanwhile, just keep doing what you do…Love the Lord with all your heart and keep praying. Loving our Lord doesn’t mean a person has to put up a tree or anything else. Sometimes doing nothing until you know, is the best thing to do.

On my third year of wondering about the Pagan Root of things…I still did not put up a tree…however I took the advice of a JW friend of mine, who also don’t put up trees and such… And she said to me, winter is so blah…so she put up lights around the ceiling of her kitchen, around some of her shelves…but of course no Christmas decorations at all. (she left them up until spring.) Her house looked pretty with the colored mini lights, but not really a Christmas look. I went home and did the same thing, it really perked me up, but I didn’t have anything Christmas out.

My grandmother years ago had a salt and pepper collection. She had it in a very large currio cabinet. because it didn’t have any lights of any kind, My grandmother took the small mini colored Christmas lights and put them on every shelf inside this cabinet. It was plugged in “Every Night of the Year.” Talk about pretty. (my cousin now has grandmas salt and pepper currio cabinet and she too lites it year round.)

So I have a Nativatiy that I put up and I leave it up year round…(I’m not into the Salt and Pepper thing like Grandma) in my cubboard with glass doors, you know for nick nacks.

On the third year I didn’t do the Christmas “types” of things, (trees, stockings ect.) this was the only thing I put up (along with Grandmas idea of lites) and to this day it stays up year round and is pluged in everynight. It does a few things for me. One I think about our Lords birth daily and all that he went through for us. It also catches peoples eyes who visit and it starts wonderful conversations about Our Lord…Year round.

So maybe you could during the winter months if they are blah for you like most of us who live in Michigan and other cold snowy states…Maybe you could find “whatever it is” to perk you up. A candle, a pretty flowering plant, a basket with flowers of some kind, just something…Not Christmas type, but something to make you smile during this time of year, to get you over the humps, so to speak.

Ok enough of my rambling…

adelore,

You are so very kind. I do appreciate your understanding of questioning the pagan practices. Unfortunately, when some people question things, they try to blame those of a different faith-which is demonstrated by the OP’s C of C friend.

I think we each have to do what we believe is right in the sight of God; and I think we should respect one another, whether we put up a Christmas tree or not. Christ demonstrated great love for us, laying down His life and paying the ultimate price for our sins. Sometimes we forget that love is at the very heart of Christianity. Unfortunately, Christians can be very hard on other Christians.

Anna