church pastor says I can't kneel

[Brendan]

This is very disrespectful, and judgemental

Which part exactly? Are you saying that ANY disagreement with a priest is disrepectful?

And as I said, I do not agree that it is OK to disobey a pastor in something that is not sinful.

Lux

But it WOULD be sinful if you know what the Vatican’s instructions are on the matter.

Here is the Infallible teaching of Vatican I Pastor Aeternus

Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

Disobeying the Holy See on this matter WOULD be sinful ( most likely Venial, but that is still sinful - no clergy should seek to compell us to sin, even venial)

 

[Brendan]

LetT,

Let’s say that your pastor decided that his parish was now going to implement the confessional practices of the early Church and that each penitent was now required to loudy proclaim the sins they were confessing to the entire congregation.

And let’s say that you had a mortal sin you wanted to confess.

It certainly isn’t sinful to tell the congregation what your particular sin is.

But would you not rather that the priest follow the dictates of the Church in the matter of the right of the peneitent to a private confession?

How would you explain that to the priest, or since, as you put it, you felt it necessary to follow the priest in any command that is not sinful to you, would you shout out the sin the parish?

 

[VociMike]

And I am sure they also stand.

And if the priest were insisting that people not stand when the GIRM called for standing, he would be every bit as much in the wrong there too. But the priest isn’t trying to force people not to stand, so that isn’t an issue here.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

B,

I will not even attempt to respond to that ridiculous comparison. This obedience issue is certainly an ethical dilema which probably has authentic guidance on both sides. I doubt either response (obeying or disobeying your pastor in this posture matter) would be sinful. As I said posture of the congregation is not a major issue, so I believe the respect for the pastor should take priority, and a discussion or report after, if so desired.

I do not think you are qualified to say I am wrong in my position, just that you also hold a valid oposing one.

Let’s agree to disagree.

Peace

Lux

 

[VociMike]

And as I said, I do not agree that it is OK to disobey a pastor in something that is not sinful.

But it’s OK to disobey the Pope and the Council Fathers who caused the new missal to be adopted? Remember, going against the missal which arose out of Vatican II is really going against Vatican II.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

But it’s OK to disobey the Pope and the Council Fathers who caused the new missal to be adopted? Remember, going against the missal which arose out of Vatican II is really going against Vatican II.

Posture of the congregation is not a major issue, and as was discussed, exceptions which are not identified specifically do allow for a change.

Be careful of invalid conclusions based on distorted premise.

Lux

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Posture must be standardized . Were it not so then why not have our chins in or hands? Or our hands in our pockets? Or slouching in the pew? legs crossed in the pew?

There has to be universality.

 

[childofmary1143]

Posture of the congregation is not a major issue, and as was discussed, exceptions which are not identified specifically do allow for a change.

Be careful of invalid conclusions based on distorted premise.

Lux

It is not your place to decide what is a major or minor issue. Furthermore for those who understand what this thread is about, its irrelevant. You are not to judge others when you say that others are being judgmental. You seem incapable of distinguishing between wrongful action, which is a Catholic obligation, and judging a person’s soul (for God only).

 

[b_justb]

childofmary1143:

It is not your place to decide what is a major or minor issue.

Whose place is it then if it is not left to the individuals conscience? Seriously, no sarcasm [as hard as that is to imagine from lil ol’ me, OK so it’s big ol’ me

 

[childofmary1143]

Whose place is it then if it is not left to the individuals conscience? Seriously, no sarcasm [as hard as that is to imagine from lil ol’ me, OK so it’s big ol’ me [URL]http://www.coolsmilies.net/happy/sq_hehe1.gif[/URL]
[/QUOTE]
]. Who is in charge of deciding the seriousness of each issue any of us may have or experience?

Its the Church’s place (i.e. Holy See). Rules are rules and as says in the Bible, “if you can’t do the little things, how can you do the big things”.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

It is not your place to decide what is a major or minor issue. Furthermore for those who understand what this thread is about, its irrelevant. You are not to judge others when you say that others are being judgmental. You seem incapable of distinguishing between wrongful action, which is a Catholic obligation, and judging a person’s soul (for God only).

HUH??? I’m not judging anyone—seems much judgement is being passed
(loss of faith, totally dissing V II over a minor issue)

And I am not deciding— RS has listed grave abuses, and posture of the congregation is not even mentioned as a less serious abuse.

Lux

 

[VociMike]

Posture of the congregation is not a major issue, and as was discussed, exceptions which are not identified specifically do allow for a change.

Be careful of invalid conclusions based on distorted premise.

Lux

When the GIRM states that the faithful should adopt a particular posture at a particular point in the Mass, it presumably does so because the authors of the Missal felt it to be significant. I don’t think the authors were just being paid by the word.

 

[Walking_Home]

HUH??? I’m not judging anyone—seems much judgement is being passed
(loss of faith, totally dissing V II over a minor issue)

And I am not deciding— **RS has listed grave abuses, **and posture of the congregation is not even mentioned as a less serious abuse.

Lux

---

You are back to that argument. I believe Brendan has already posed the question to you in another thread. Where in RS does it say --the document Only address grave abuses.

 

[VociMike]

Whose place is it then if it is not left to the individuals conscience? Seriously, no sarcasm [as hard as that is to imagine from lil ol’ me, OK so it’s big ol’ me [URL]http://www.coolsmilies.net/happy/sq_hehe1.gif[/URL]
[/QUOTE]
]. Who is in charge of deciding the seriousness of each issue any of us may have or experience?
Easier just to obey the legitimate authority. In the case of the rubrics of the Mass, the legitimate authority is the Holy See, and in cases where the Holy See has allowed the bishops some leeway, the bishop of the diocese.

 

[childofmary1143]

HUH??? I’m not judging anyone—seems much judgement is being passed
(loss of faith, totally dissing V II over a minor issue)

And I am not deciding— RS has listed grave abuses, and posture of the congregation is not even mentioned as a less serious abuse.

Lux

What is RS? Perhaps its not listed as one because this ordering of standing when the people should be kneeling is something new and hence not in it.

 

[VociMike]

Its the Church’s place (i.e. Holy See). Rules are rules and as says in the Bible, “if you can’t do the little things, how can you do the big things”.

Yes, this whole question of whether it’s a big abuse or just a little abuse sounds like somebody looking for permission to disobey something, anything, under the cover of “well, it’s not a big abuse”.

 

[VociMike]

I can just see the local church bulletin:

The following abuses are considered minor rather than major, and thus the directives of the Church in their regard may be freely ignored:

1. Posture at Mass
   2)…

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Not really. This is not a major abuse under RS, which is a document totally aimed at correcting liturgical abuses.

Lux

 

[Sure]

Posture of the congregation is not a major issue, and as was discussed, exceptions which are not identified specifically do allow for a change.

Be careful of invalid conclusions based on distorted premise.

Lux

Perhaps you should ask your Pastor to explain why he wants you to stand when the missal indicates that all should kneel? What is his reason? It would only seem fair that since he is the one who wants to make an exception to the rule, he should explain why.

 

[VociMike]

Not really. This is not a major abuse under RS, which is a document totally aimed at correcting liturgical abuses.

Lux

Are Catholics free to disobey the Church and engage in whatever “minor abuses” of the liturgy may enter their heads?