Church Security & Legally Armed Parishioners

[vz71]

Do you mean leave the United States entirely? Or move to a safer part of the United States?

I meant precisely what I said. No more, no less.
If you are living in fear, and have to carry a gun with to alleviate this fear, something is wrong.

The original post said precisely that.

My wife literally fears going to a weekend mass because she says she feels like a “sitting duck.”

Now I am kind of curious…just what is going on in that church that makes her feel so unsafe?
Is this church in some kind of warzone where we can expect someone to jump out and shoot at any moment?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

My wife literally fears going to a weekend mass because she says she feels like a “sitting duck.”

Catholic churches are open to the general public, and anyone can just walk in and attend Mass. Unless it is a very small parish in a rural area, town, or village, it is not a case of “everyone knows everyone else”, and if it’s a large, downtown urban parish, you generally have no idea who 99% of the people at Mass even are — you might see them and know distinctive faces or characteristics, but that’s all you know. Everyone just kind of blurs together. Any criminal or mentally ill person can come in, sit down, and you have no idea. If they have some kind of mischief in mind, you won’t know until the moment it happens.

When I go to Mass, the way things have become anymore, yes, I have way in the back of my mind that something could happen. I can’t worry myself to death or paralyze myself on account of it. You just have to press forward. Life has to go on.

 

[vz71]

Unless it is a very small parish in a rural area, town, or village, it is not a case of “everyone knows everyone else”, and if it’s a large, downtown urban parish, you generally have no idea who 99% of the people at Mass even are

So this causes fear such that one must carry a firearm?

If they have some kind of mischief in mind, you won’t know until the moment it happens.

True.
But statistics say the incidence is extremely unlikely.
Is this unlikely scenario the cause of such fear?

When I go to Mass, the way things have become anymore, yes, I have way in the back of my mind that something could happen

But are you afraid?

What you describe is being prepared.
What the original post described was fear.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Unless it is a very small parish in a rural area, town, or village, it is not a case of “everyone knows everyone else”, and if it’s a large, downtown urban parish, you generally have no idea who 99% of the people at Mass even are

I’ll just put it this way — I have no problem with someone else in the congregation carrying. I’d prefer they did, than that they did not. And if something does happen, whether they are carrying legally or not is going to be the absolute last thing on my mind.

When I go to Mass, the way things have become anymore, yes, I have way in the back of my mind that something could happen

I’m not, myself. Fear is something I typically don’t do. Having something in the back of your mind is not fear.

 

[vz71]

I’ll just put it this way — I have no problem with someone else in the congregation carrying. I’d prefer they did, than that they did not.

Agreed.
But I am not in favor of someone disobeying the proper authorities in the matter.
The priest has not provided permission, the bishop likewise has denied the priest the ability to grant permission.
It doesn’t matter how well trained or what type of permits, the bishop has spoken in this matter.
That church is off limits to carry. Concealed or otherwise.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I’ll just put it this way — I have no problem with someone else in the congregation carrying. I’d prefer they did, than that they did not.

Then they’d better have ushers who carry (at least some of them). That might be the best scenario.

 

[pmankow]

I would just CC anyways. I don’t CC but sure wouldn’t mind if people were doing so at Mass.

Who actually had authority to make the call anyways? Legally it’d be the property owner. Do diocese own the property or does the parish? If the parish then who legally makes the call, pastor or ‘parish board’?

 

[Rau]

This is just nuts IMO.

Honestly, and I don’t mean to be overly offensive, that was exactly what went through my mind as I read the first post in this thread… As they say, only in America…

 

[AlNg]

Then they’d better have ushers who carry

I think so. Either that or hired armed security guards to protect the innocent while in church. Guns and semi-automatic weapons are too easy to get for almost anyone and there have been too many innocent people killed in mass shootings in the USA. The politicians can’t help you against domestic terrorism.

 

[Beryllos]

Theres 1 way to stop a bad guy with a gun

You’re military and you really believe this?

 

[Rau]

Guns and semi-automatic weapons are too easy to get for almost anyone

Perhaps this is a key issue.

 

[vz71]

I would just CC anyways.

That would place you in direct disobedience.

Who actually had authority to make the call anyways?

The Bishop. And he has spoken.

If the parish then who legally makes the call, pastor or ‘parish board’?

The priest is final authority for what goes on during Mass. And he is subject to the Bishop, who again, has spoken on the matter.

 

[vz71]

Then they’d better have ushers who carry (at least some of them).

I think so. Either that or hired armed security guards to protect the innocent while in church.

I think we need to reasonably look at the actual statistics about this before considering delivery of an ultimatum to the Church.
Such an ultimatum is a serious overstep of any authority the parishioners have in the matter.
Unless they can likewise back it with evidence to show such security measures are reasonable, I could not agree.

 

[VonDerTann]

OK, vz, so the guy or gal next to you is secretly carrying a weapon to mass and is in “direct disobedience” to a bishop or priest.

I guess when a nutcase brings an assault rifle into church and starts shooting, you can jump up and say, “hey you! Stop that! You’re in direct disobedience to the bishop!”

 

[Agnus-Dei]

With mention of lightening strikes a long time ago in this thread:
According to the NWS Storm Data, over the last 30 years (1984-2013) the U.S. has averaged 51 reported lightning fatalities per year. Only about 10% of people who are struck by lightning are killed, leaving 90% with various degrees of disability.
(Notice it reports fatalities as 51 being 10%, so 510 strikes per year). Looks like 10.2 people PER state, PER year being hit.
I believe we need to spend more time on “lightening strike” regulation, and laws to prevent this. (Extreme sarcasm)
Dominus vobiscum

 

[OddBird]

This non-American thought the same, tbh.

I think I will never understand the relationship some Americans have with their guns. From my European perspective, what is really frightening is the whole idea of concealed carry permits.

And particularly so in churches, which traditionally are “sanctuaries” - safe places meant to be preserved from weapons and violence, even from the forceful execution of the law.

 

[Agnus-Dei]

Might not work. If the shooter is not Catholic he is not bound by the rule of the church. grin
Dominus vobiscum

 

[VonDerTann]

Lots of things aren’t likely to happen - but they happen anyway. It’s unlikely I’ll get into a car accident, so I guess i won’t wear a seatbelt (and the government shouldn’t have a right to tell me to!).

Church shootings have happened.
The bishop won’t be around to help you when one does.

 

[VonDerTann]

From my American perspective I’ve never understood the modern European fear of guns and over reliance on police in major cities.

How many Americans know that many European police carrying guns have no bullets in them?

 

[Rau]

I think I will never understand the relationship some Americans have with their guns.

I too (a non-American) do not understand it either. Their attachment, it seems, serves them so poorly, but the attachment doesn’t wane. Just my personal observation.