Church Security & Legally Armed Parishioners

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It’s an age old dodge to demand statistics when you don’t like what others post. It’s even worse to ask for stats about something largely unknowable (like a persons fear of being a victim of a Church shooting).
 
Heard about the shooting in Thailand over the weekend? Gun crimes happen everywhere. More pointedly, crimes of all sorts happen everywhere, and guns in the hands of armed citizens are one impediment to them - as the response to a church shooter in Texas bears out.

As another poster had stated, the US gun laws are designed to protect against government tyranny. Tyrants seem to arise in nations without guns being in common usage.

As a total aside, I remember a history of WWI, reading words to the effect that, in WWI, German soldiers had much greater fear of US soldiers than British or French, since US troops came from a background where “the average farmhouse had more weapons inside than the average French infantry squad carried.”
 
Lea101 said:
I’m not European, but I live in a gun free country and I would be terrified being surrounded by armed citizens. You just don’t know which one would snap.
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Speaking of snapping, most US gun deaths are suicide. Of those, I am not sure what fraction are the gun owner, or someone else in the household. It makes you wonder who, if anyone, is safer with a gun.

Also one of the most heartbreaking mass shootings, at the Sandy Hook elementary school, was carried out by a young man who stole his mother’s gun. No doubt, she thought she was making the world safer by owning a gun. She thought wrong.
 
VonDerTann said:
Gun crimes happen everywhere. More pointedly, crimes of all sorts happen everywhere, and guns in the hands of armed citizens are one impediment to them - as the response to a church shooter in Texas bears out.
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But crime rates vary, sometimes drastically, sometimes not. There are pros and cons. You give citizens arms, and they can defend themselves, but they can also harm others at a higher rate than a knife (for example).

I understand why Americans want to protect their 2A, though. I would want a gun if I’m staying in America.

I just don’t necessarily want that for my country because I think introducing it would harm not help overall.
Beryllos said:
Speaking of snapping, most US gun deaths are suicide. Of those, I am not sure what fraction are the gun owner, or someone else in the household. It makes you wonder who, if anyone, is safer with a gun.
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Yeah. I wonder how much of those suicides wouldn’t occur without guns though. They would probably off themselves in other ways. Based on a few stats I’ve worked with in the past, methods of suicide are whatever that’s most accessible to them. That being said, shooting is seen as the quickest form of death so that may be a factor. I knew if I had a gun when I was younger, I definitely wouldn’t be here today.
 
childinthefaith said:
My wife literally fears going to a weekend mass
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She is scared, but I protect her. That is which it is.
Ever vigilant, ready, but have no desire to have to use my skills to engage. I do not know how to make it any more clear in this thread that:
  • I do not break the law to carry
  • It is my responsibility to protect my wife, and if there are other innocents in the area when I’ve no choice but to use force to respond to a lethal threat, I will protect them as well because that is how I function
Although I do have PTSD from war and from a traumatic injury, it is well under control, I’ve had plenty of therapy, and for some related issues still do. However, none of those issues have a snowball’s chance of making me “quick on the trigger.” Unless at a range or field stripping to clean, I don’t even touch the grips of my gun(s) in public unless in a men’s room to adjust holsters. Otherwise, the only way I would even have contact with them would be if I had no choice but to legally draw and use one. That is a serious responsibility I do not take lightly. I’ll admit, there are some people out there who are legally armed, but not responsibly armed. The difference lies in training and those who haven’t had it, need to get it as there’s plenty available.

But to the question about wife fearing weekend mass and us not living in fear, there is a difference you see. One is an event wherein danger may invade on a weekly basis. The other is our mode of life.
In day to day life, no need to be afraid as I am quite able to keep her safe and we’re not in a crowd with what is essentially a sign on the door that says, “easy unarmed targets here,” making it more dangerous than the typical places we are together.

As previously stated, I’ve an unofficial agreement and carry there, so no problem for her. But, the law should not attempt to hamstring us in our places of worship. Long ago, drilling militia on weekends were expected to bring their arms to church in some states.

Blessings & Peace
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I’d like to see the KofC or some other knightly catholic order take up church security in a regulated, orderly manner.
 
childinthefaith said:
I do not break the law to carry
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You stated above that your state law requires one to have permission to carry in a place of worship and that your Bishop will not give that permission, yet, you carry into the Church anyway.

Explain how that is not both disobedience to your Bishop and to the law?

Honestly, if people are willing to break the law by carrying in church in my parish, I want to know who they are. I will likely decide to attend another Mass where no one is carrying.
 
C.Ray said:
I’d like to see the KofC or some other knightly catholic order take up church security in a regulated, orderly manner.
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If only. Myself and multiple other knights go to the range together. I’d be all for doing that duty. The problem lies in the diocese wishing to have someone doing such duty…although I have not spoken to the bishop or his staff on the matter, it appears they simply do not wish parishioners to carry, period. Were I not to have an unofficial agreement, i wouldn’t carry myself, but that would cut my attendance way down too because I do NOT like to go anywhere unarmed. I simply don’t. I feel naked without at least my primary gun on my belt.
But unless threatened, very seriously threatened, I wouldn’t hurt a flea. It is a non sequitur that men like me are forbidden by anyone to carry anywhere. It’s not like I’m charging for my security services after all
 
childinthefaith said:
Were I not to have an unofficial agreement, i wouldn’t carry myself, but that would cut my attendance way down too because I do NOT like to go anywhere unarmed.
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You clearly put your ability to carry before God.

Yet more evidence that the second amendment needs to go.
 
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childinthefaith said:
Were I not to have an unofficial agreement, i wouldn’t carry myself, but that would cut my attendance way down too because I do NOT like to go anywhere unarmed.
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I’m not sure that the bishop’s forbidding parishioners to carry guns in the church is a religious issue, as though you are not offering obedience to your spiritual father, and sinning in so doing. I would view it more as the owner of a property, a place of public congregation, having the ultimate say-so on what he will allow, and what he will not allow, on his property. And the bishop, as corporation sole, is indeed the owner of that public accommodation that just happens to be a church.
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HomeschoolDad said:
I’m not sure that the bishop’s forbidding parishioners to carry guns in the church is a religious issue, as though you are not offering obedience to your spiritual father, and sinning in so doing. I would view it more as the owner of a property, a place of public congregation, having the ultimate say-so on what he will allow, and what he will not allow, on his property. And the bishop, as corporation sole, is indeed the owner of that public accommodation that just happens to be a church.
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If you won’t go to Mass because you can’t take a gun there you are too attached to your gun.

I think that is true of many Americans.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
I’m not sure that the bishop’s forbidding parishioners to carry guns in the church is a religious issue, as though you are not offering obedience to your spiritual father, and sinning in so doing. I would view it more as the owner of a property, a place of public congregation, having the ultimate say-so on what he will allow, and what he will not allow, on his property. And the bishop, as corporation sole, is indeed the owner of that public accommodation that just happens to be a church.
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IMHO, things in this country are not bad enough yet — and God willing, they never will be — that this could even be remotely a reason not to attend Mass. If you feel the need to carry otherwise, just take it off and put it in a locked compartment of your car while you’re in Mass.

I think it would be far better to have some of the ushers carrying. The KofC idea was also a good one.
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Gripper said:
I would never take a gun to Mass and wouldn’t want to kill someone there either. If you are going to die what better place to die?
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That is a condescending attitude. Think of all the lives in that church that could be SAVED if an armed parishioner could take down a mass shooter. Nowhere does God tell us that we can’t defend ourselves against evil.
 
I haven’t read the entire thread, got to it too late.

I will start out by saying that I carry a gun every day and have for the past 15 years or so, and until this year was a LTC instructor for Texas. Let my certification expire. I take personal defense seriously so don’t think by my comments I am in any way anti gun.

With that being said, you are much more likely to die driving to and from Mass, or taking your wife to work or whatever in your automobile than you are to die by a gun. That is a fact.

If you choose to disobey your state law and carry into church without required permission, you are a criminal. That is a fact. You may not like the way the law is written in your state, but it is the law.

I have just a couple of questions. How long have your been carrying daily? Is it for years, or is it something that has recently changed. If it is a new thing, your mindset is much like that of other new carriers. Everything is a threat, every place you are a possible target. While in theory that is true, in reality, you are actually pretty safe in most instances. That is a fact.

What is your level of proficiency with your gun? What is your history with guns, self defense etc.

Lastly, you are more likely to be killed by a gun from someone who you know than a complete stranger. That is a fact.

I will finish up by saying that we should all follow the laws of whatever state we live in and additionally follow the rules of the church we attend. If you feel like this is something that needs to be changed in your parish, get with qualified personnel, develop a plan, approach the Pastor and present it to him. Let him be the one, that if sold on your idea brings it to the Bishop so that the plan can be implemented.

The last thing any church needs is a bunch of untrained folks letting bullets fly around and killing other innocent folks.

Good luck.
 
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As for the law, I’d rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

I agree with you 100%
No one knows when a mentally disturbed person decides to start shooting at innocent victims…one evening at Mass I was thinking how easily accessible it would be for someone to enter our Church, we have three access-ways in the front, and start shooting. So, I mentioned my fear to the church office and they looked at me like I was crazy…then I asked about security…no response. We had a new Priest at the time and others voiced their disapproval of his changes…some were angry…I decided it was time for me to seek another Parish…Yea, we avoid crowded areas as well…one never knows…however, I have a fear of guns that I am unable to overcome… 😬 🔫
 
libbeylu said:
one evening at Mass I was thinking how easily accessible it would be for someone to enter our Church, we have three access-ways in the front, and start shooting.
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The good news is that multiple doorways are also exits.
 
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Elf01 said:
You clearly put your ability to carry before God.

Yet more evidence that the second amendment needs to go.
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And you may consider if you are perfect before judging me.

I’d only ask, without the 2nd Amendment, how do you propose we protect the rest, as well as the whole of the constitution?
An armed society is a polite society friend.
 
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