Church teaching on Islam

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Armyvet007 said:
I’m sorry, but that’s not an answer to my question. I’ll be happy to point out the prior posts on this thread that have discussed that portion of the CCC once you bother to actually answer my question. Thank you.
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I don’t know what the Church has declared on Mormons. Other then their baptism is invalid.
 
I am sorry, I find most of this extremely odd, to say the least, and not in keeping with Catholic tradition. Show me some liturgy from these Catholic churches that use the word ‘Allah’, as I always thought that was the name of the Saturday God chosen by Mohammed out of the 365 gods of the original Mohammedians. :confused:
 
jam070406 said:
I don’t know what the Church has declared on Mormons. Other then their baptism is invalid.
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Then let’s set that aside until we find the answer to it *.

Back to Muslims worshipping God. The Church stating that they worship God does not equate to the Church declaring the Islamic concept of God to be correct or as valid as the our concept/understanding. Think of it this way [and this analogy isn’t perfect and is just being used to describe how close the various faiths compare in the proper/correct understanding of God]-

God is sitting in a room in a building

A Catholic would find the room
A Protestant would find a room near the correct room
A Jew would find the right floor
A Muslim would find the right building
A non-Abrahamic faith person would find anywhere from the right city block to just being in the right country

All the Church has stated is that Muslims, like the other Abrahamic faiths, get the building right [which is rather important when trying to find someone].*
 
Armyvet007 said:
Then let’s set that aside until we find the answer to it *.

Back to Muslims worshipping God. The Church stating that they worship God does not equate to the Church declaring the Islamic concept of God to be correct or as valid as the our concept/understanding. Think of it this way [and this analogy isn’t perfect and is just being used to describe how close the various faiths compare in the proper/correct understanding of God]-

God is sitting in a room in a building

A Catholic would find the room
A Protestant would find a room near the correct room
A Jew would find the right floor
A Muslim would find the right building
A non-Abrahamic faith person would find anywhere from the right city block to just being in the right country

All the Church has stated is that Muslims, like the other Abrahamic faiths, get the building right [which is rather important when trying to find someone].*

Great analogy!👍
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Armyvet007 said:
Then let’s set that aside until we find the answer to it *.

Back to Muslims worshipping God. The Church stating that they worship God does not equate to the Church declaring the Islamic concept of God to be correct or as valid as the our concept/understanding. Think of it this way [and this analogy isn’t perfect and is just being used to describe how close the various faiths compare in the proper/correct understanding of God]-

God is sitting in a room in a building

A Catholic would find the room
A Protestant would find a room near the correct room
A Jew would find the right floor
A Muslim would find the right building
A non-Abrahamic faith person would find anywhere from the right city block to just being in the right country

All the Church has stated is that Muslims, like the other Abrahamic faiths, get the building right [which is rather important when trying to find someone].*

I agree with this (to a degree). This is nothing more then a profession of monotheism.

Where I disagree with you is, I don’t believe that Islam is an Abrahamic faith. I don’t believe the Church has taught that Islam is an authentic Abrahamic faith. Especially given the fact that it didn’t even spring up till much later, 7th century.
The Church teaches in Dominus Iesus that authentic Faith, the infusion of grace, leads to a belief in the Trinity.

The Church merely states that the faith of Abraham is what Muslims claim. It doesn’t say they are correct in their claim.
That is why the Church sums up all this talk about Muslims with the fact that they need to be evangelized.
If God is in a room (based on your analogy) then Jesus is the door. Without whom it is impossible to come to the Father.
The Islamic idea of One True God is a completely different path to the Catholic idea of One True God. And both lead to a different place.
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jam070406 said:
I agree with this (to a degree). This is nothing more then a profession of monotheism.

No it is not. The non-Abrahamic monotheist faiths are not given specific mention in the CCC. Only the non-Christian Abrahamic faiths are given specific mention in that portion of the CCC. If it were simply about a faith being monotheistic, then these specific mentions would not exist, or the other non-Abrahamic faiths would be given specific mention.

Where I disagree with you is, I don’t believe that Islam is an Abrahamic faith. I don’t believe the Church has taught that Islam is an authentic Abrahamic faith. Especially given the fact that it didn’t even spring up till much later, 7th century.
The Church teaches in Dominus Iesus that authentic Faith, the infusion of grace, leads to a belief in the Trinity.

You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the Church, our current Holy Father, and his predecessor.

The Church merely states that the faith of Abraham is what Muslims claim. It doesn’t say they are correct in their claim.

“As I have often said in other meetings with Muslims, your God and ours is one and the same, and we are brothers and sisters in the faith of Abraham. Thus it is natural that we have much to discuss concerning true holiness in obedience and worship to God.” -BJPtG

That is why the Church sums up all this talk about Muslims with the fact that they need to be evangelized.

I’m pretty sure the Church’s stance is that every non-Catholic needs to be evangelized.

If God is in a room (based on your analogy) then Jesus is the door. Without whom it is impossible to come to the Father.

Correct. You can’t get into the room if the door is closed. However, we aren’t the ones that dictate how the door is opened. It could open because we place our hands on the knob and ask it to open [are within the Church]; or it could open because we want it opened but don’t know how to operate a door [those outside the Church through no fault of their own]. The danger for Muslims [and the need to evangelize them (and everyone else)] isn’t that they can’t get the door open, it’s that they won’t find it. The door is only closed to those who wilfully hold it closed.

The Islamic idea of One True God is a completely different path to the Catholic idea of One True God. And both lead to a different place.

As does the Jewish idea of One True God; and to a lesser degree as do some of the Protestant faiths’ idea of One True God.
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"You are not disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with the Church, our current Holy Father, and his predecessor."

I am not. In fact, Cardinal Ratzinger wrote the following:
  1. The proper response to God’s revelation is “the obedience of faith (Rom 16:26; cf. Rom 1:5; 2 Cor 10:5-6) by which man freely entrusts his entire self to God, offering ‘the full submission of intellect and will to God who reveals’ and freely assenting to the revelation given by him”.15 Faith is a gift of grace: “in order to have faith, the grace of God must come first and give assistance; there must also be the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and gives ‘to everyone joy and ease in assenting to and believing in the truth’”.16
The obedience of faith implies acceptance of the truth of Christ’s revelation, guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself:17 “Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed”.18 Faith, therefore, as “a gift of God” and as “a supernatural virtue infused by him”,19 involves a dual adherence: to God who reveals and to the truth which he reveals, out of the trust which one has in him who speaks. Thus, “we must believe in no one but God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”.20

For this reason, the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held. If faith is the acceptance in grace of revealed truth, which “makes it possible to penetrate the mystery in a way that allows us to understand it coherently”,21 then belief, in the other religions, is that sum of experience and thought that constitutes the human treasury of wisdom and religious aspiration, which man in his search for truth has conceived and acted upon in his relationship to God and the Absolute.22

ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfunici.htm
 
I’m going to walk away from this conversation because it always degrades in attempts to paint me as a bad Catholic by such comments as “you disagree with the Church” or “you disagree with the Pope”. This sort of attack always irks me. :mad: And I need to walk away.

I’ll leave with two quotes:

“My friend, there are not two ways of serving Our Lord; there is only one good way, and it is to serve Him as He wishes to be served”. ~ St. John Vianney

" But through unbelief man is separated most from God: because he has no true knowledge of God. Nor can anyone in any way know God who holds a false opinion of Him" ~ St. Thomas Aquinas

Good bye
God bless.
 
jam070406 said:
I’m going to walk away from this conversation because it always degrades in attempts to paint me as a bad Catholic by such comments as “you disagree with the Church” or “you disagree with the Pope”. This sort of attack always irks me. :mad: And I need to walk away.

I’ll leave with two quotes:

“My friend, there are not two ways of serving Our Lord; there is only one good way, and it is to serve Him as He wishes to be served”. ~ St. John Vianney

" But through unbelief man is separated most from God: because he has no true knowledge of God. Nor can anyone in any way know God who holds a false opinion of Him" ~ St. Thomas Aquinas

Good bye
God bless.
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I apologize if you see my comment as an attack or as an attempt to label you as a “bad” catholic. It wasn’t an attack, just a response to your statement. Additionally, I don’t consider you a “bad” catholic, I just consider you wrong/incorrect [which I assume is how you view me in regards to this discussion].
 
Armyvet007 said:
Then let’s set that aside until we find the answer to it *.

Back to Muslims worshipping God. The Church stating that they worship God does not equate to the Church declaring the Islamic concept of God to be correct or as valid as the our concept/understanding. Think of it this way [and this analogy isn’t perfect and is just being used to describe how close the various faiths compare in the proper/correct understanding of God]-

God is sitting in a room in a building

A Catholic would find the room
A Protestant would find a room near the correct room
A Jew would find the right floor
A Muslim would find the right building
A non-Abrahamic faith person would find anywhere from the right city block to just being in the right country

All the Church has stated is that Muslims, like the other Abrahamic faiths, get the building right [which is rather important when trying to find someone].*

👍
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rinnie said:
How do you blame God the creator of heaven and earth the Islam God responsible for a false prophet who claims a false teaching.

Did Christ not tell us, many will say did I not preach and teach in your name. etc. And Did Christ not say I DO NOT KNOW YOU.

Christ warned us many false prophets will CLAIM to teach in his name but are liars.

So how does Muhammad trying to deceive with a false doctrine make the God of Abraham false.

I cannot see where you people are getting that Muslims God the God of Abraham is false. because a false prophet CLAIMS to teach in his name.🤷:confused:
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How do you blame God the creator of heaven and earth the Islam God responsible for a false prophet who claims a false teaching.
I did not.

Did Christ not tell us, many will say did I not preach and teach in your name. etc. And Did Christ not say I DO NOT KNOW YOU.
Islam does not preach in Christ’s name, preaches against Christ! Islam transformed Hagia Sophia in Istambul, from a Church to a Mosque.
Christ warned us many false prophets will CLAIM to teach in his name but are liars.
Yes.
So how does Muhammad trying to deceive with a false doctrine make the God of Abraham false.
We did not need Muhammad for we already had the God of Abraham. Why Muhammad killed all Christians in the North of Africa in the 7th Century and killed the Crhistian in Turkey? North of Africa and Turkey were Crhistians before Muhammad started killing the “infidels” as Muhammad calls the Christians.
I cannot see where you people are getting that Muslims God the God of Abraham is false. because a false prophet CLAIMS to teach in his name.
Again, the God of Abraham. You repeat it 2 times! We have Jesus Christ !!! Abraham was, very very very very old. We now have Jesus Christ. And Islams calls the followers of Jesus Christ the infidels.
See this please:

How to convert a Jew through lies:
youtube.com/watch?v=FKs7oi_-NUo&feature=related

How should a Muslim beat his wife:
youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do&feature=fvsr

Muslim Woman revolting against Muslim Man who wants to oppress her:
youtube.com/watch?v=r7OYRknGgEc&feature=fvwrel

Muslims want to conquer the World and put Sharia Law of Every country !!! Put everybody as slaves of Muslims!
youtube.com/watch?v=_TqPK5oYZBk&feature=related

Why millions are leaving Islam:
youtube.com/watch?v=1muv-4digWI&feature=related

Horror-1
youtube.com/watch?v=AQEkydajvX4

Horror-2
youtube.com/watch?v=Hgiy3riDZnk&feature=related

Horror-3
youtube.com/watch?v=wpo6tQF3uE4&feature=relmfu

Horror-4
youtube.com/watch?v=wpo6tQF3uE4&feature=relmfu

Horror-5
youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=lo6uRwwnFH0

Enough with the idea of Islam as a merciful and kind religion.
Big Lie.
 
rinnie said:
Yes it does, it says they profess the faith of Abraham and together with us worship the One true God.

So then are you accusing us also of worshiping a false god? Because together WITH US they worship the one true God.
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Sorry, it is not the same God.
Islam’s god is NOT the Christian God.
You call a table to something that IS NOT a table !!!
 
rinnie said:
Really? where does it say they do not hold the faith of Abraham? How could they not hold the faith of Abraham but then profess the faith of Abraham. Could you explain?:confused:
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After Abraham we had Jesus Christ.
Or are we Abrahamists?
Their god is not our God !
 
rinnie said:
Jam I have a question for you.

You claim because Muslims reject Christ as the One true God they have a false god, right?

Okay lets go with your reasoning.

Now in John 6:64 to name one, Although there are many, Christ tells us point blank that he is the true bread from heaven. He said it as clear as day. He said it 12 times to eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Now many Protestants reject Christ in the Eucharist. Why is it that Muslims reject Christ as God the Father creator of heaven and earth, so that makes them have a false god, Then Protestatants that reject Christ in the Eucharist would have a false god then also right?

I mean is not rejecting Christ rejecting Christ.

If you don’t agree that Protestants who reject Christ in the Eucharist don’t have a false god, how can you accuse the Muslims then?
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Muslims have a little piece of God but not the whole revelation.
Protestant have a little piece of Christianity but not the whole revelation of Christianity.
 
jam070406 said:
My answer to you on that. In case you haven’t figured it out, is that Muslims do not hold the Faith of Abraham. So…anything further beyond that really is meaningless until they are enlightened by the Faith of Abraham, which results in believe in Jesus Christ. Which comes to them from hearing the Gospel. Which that whole section is addressing.
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Muslims read Quran not the Bible of Abraham.
Christians read the Bible of Abraham not the Quran.
Let us forget Muslims as descendents of Abraham.
The descendents of Abrham are Christians.
Muslims cam in 600 AFTER CHRIST and they go backwards 2000 years to Abraham?
That is why Islam is a backward religion.
Came backwards, jumped over Jesus Christ and went to pre-historic times of Abraham !!!
Cray!!!
 
jam070406 said:
How am I “going against the the teachings of the CC?” What have said that is more meaningful then the CC?

You still have never answered what the Faith of Abraham is.
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The Faith of Abraham is the Faith in One God who promised Him a generation more numerous than the stars on the sky. Those are the Children of Jesus Christ and within this, the Catholic Church.
 
rinnie said:
Show me. Show me where Abraham taught us that God was the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit. Show me.
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I will show you.
The Generation of Abraham was Jesus Christ who came to teach us the Trinity. He is the promised to Abraham.
Not the Muslims who believe half-way in Abraham.
 
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