Church teaching on Islam

[Godfollower]

I’ve heard that the church’s position that Muslims worship the same God as Christians constitutes a teaching on faith or morals that Catholics must give religious assent to. Is this true and if so, how is it a teaching on faith or morals?

Yes, it’s true.

1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.

Nostra Aetate (“Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions”) ¶ 3.

No one really answered my question. Is the church’s position a teaching on faith or morals, or is it just an observation? Also, how is it a teaching on faith or morals( if it is)?

The Catholic Encyclopedia defines “faith” as follows:

Objectively, it stands for the sum of truths revealed by God in Scripture and tradition and which the Church (see RULE OF FAITH) presents to us in a brief form in her creeds, subjectively, faith stands for the habit or virtue by which we assent to those truths.

Catholic Encyclopedia, Faith.

So your question, then, is whether the statements of Nostra Aetate teach us a matter of faith. I think it’s absolutely clear that it does. The Church, speaking through the ecumenical council of Vatican II and promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI, teaches us that the Muslims are worshiping the same God we are; that they adore and submit to Him, and that they misunderstand Him (not acknowledging Jesus’ divinity, though they do revere Him as a prophet). These are clearly teachings relating to the truth of God as transmitted through Scripture and Tradition; and the Council’s call for mutual understanding is a statement of morals.

That being said, the Church acknowledges that there are differences. Muslims clearly are wrong about the nature of God (particularly Jesus), and they are wrong in their beliefs about the Koran and many of its teachings.

But there’s only one God. When they pray to God, they’re praying to the same God we are. Because there’s only one of Him.

 

[Godfollower]

No, No and No.
The God Muslims worship is not the same God as Christians worship. That is a big fallacy we are falling lately, thinking that, because they worship One God, the God is the same. It is not.
Their God is a violent one, who exacts revenge and never pardons, who calls to the killing of infidels (everyone who is not Muslim), who never converts but always conquers, who converts by the law of the sword.
Do not believe me. Just study the History of Islam.
As for morals and ethics, lets start from polygamy… never mind the rest…

That’s the thing that always gets me about these “Do Muslims worship the same God we do?” threads: it’s as if you believe that God’s nature is defined by His worshipers. That’s simply incorrect. God’s nature derives from God Himself, and nothing any human being does can change it.

God is God, whether you believe He’s male, female, or neither; whether you believe that He’s one Person or Three; whether you believe that Jesus was human, divine, or both; whether you believe that the Messiah has already come or has not; and whether you believe that Mohammed was a prophet or not. And, when you send out a prayer to God, there’s only one God out there to receive it.

Let’s take your objections one by one.

Their God is a violent one,

That’s exactly what many have said about the God of the Bible. Check out Exodus 32:27 (“And he said to them: Thus saith the Lord God of Israel: Put every man his sword upon his thigh: go, and return from gate to gate through the midst of the camp, and let every man kill his brother, and friend, and neighbour.”). Does that mean that the God of the Jews is not the same God as the God of the Christians? Because that’s gonna be hard to explain.

who exacts revenge and never pardons

Check out our Bible: “The Lord is a jealous God, and a revenger: the Lord is a revenger, and hath wrath: the Lord taketh vengeance on his adversaries, and he is angry with his enemies. The Lord is patient, and great in power, and will not cleanse and acquit the guilty.” Nahum 1:1-2. Muslims could say the same thing about the Bible’s depiction of God that you’re saying from the Koran.

who calls to the killing of infidels (everyone who is not Muslim), who never converts but always conquers, who converts by the law of the sword.

Read Joshua some time.

Do not believe me. Just study the History of Islam.

As for morals and ethics, lets start from polygamy… never mind the rest…

Jacob married two sisters and sired children on both of them and their handmaids.

---

The point is, it’s useless to say that we worship different Gods. For one thing, that necessarily involves the blasphemy of saying that there are, in fact, multiple gods.

It made sense for the pagans to say “Our god is the god of war and hunting. Your god is the god of music and wine. Obviously they’re different gods.” Because they believed that there were multiple gods, and they could use the attributes of the so-called gods to figure out whether they were worshiping the same god by different names or different gods entirely.

In truth, however, there is only one God. If I believe one thing about God, and you believe another, then either we’re both right about Him; we’re both wrong about Him; or one of us is right and the other is wrong.

But, just because we disagree about Him doesn’t mean there must be different Gods. There’s only one of Him. If the Muslims say something about Him that’s wrong, then they’ve simply described Him incorrectly.

Suppose I say “Lincoln fought the Civil War to free the slaves” and you say “Lincoln fought the Civil War to preserve the Union.” Are we describing two separate Lincolns? No; we’re describing the same guy, although we disagree about his attributes. Or suppose I say “Elvis is dead” and you say “No, he just went home.” There’s only one Elvis; we just disagree about what happened. It’s the same with Christians and Muslims. We’re both worshiping the only God there is; they just don’t understand what we worship as well as we do (though we still have a long way to go).

Similarly, suppose I flip a coin and cover it as soon as it lands. You might be absolutely convinced from evidence you find persuasive that it landed heads up. Meanwhile, devoutchristian might be just as convinced from evidence s/he finds persuasive that it landed tails up. I know the answer by revelation; you’re both coming to a rational conclusion based on what you’ve been told.

But there’s only one coin, and you’re both describing the same one.

 

[Vouthon]

Yes, it’s true.

Nostra Aetate (“Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions”) ¶ 3.

The Catholic Encyclopedia defines “faith” as follows:

Catholic Encyclopedia, Faith.

So your question, then, is whether the statements of Nostra Aetate teach us a matter of faith. I think it’s absolutely clear that it does. The Church, speaking through the ecumenical council of Vatican II and promulgated by His Holiness Pope Paul VI, teaches us that the Muslims are worshiping the same God we are; that they adore and submit to Him, and that they misunderstand Him (not acknowledging Jesus’ divinity, though they do revere Him as a prophet). These are clearly teachings relating to the truth of God as transmitted through Scripture and Tradition; and the Council’s call for mutual understanding is a statement of morals.

That being said, the Church acknowledges that there are differences. Muslims clearly are wrong about the nature of God (particularly Jesus), and they are wrong in their beliefs about the Koran and many of its teachings.

But there’s only one God. When they pray to God, they’re praying to the same God we are. Because there’s only one of Him.

My dear brother

An excellent post!

Might I add this quote from Pope John Paul II that I should have added earlier (but somehow forgot! ) which backs up what your saying.

Our late Holy Father John Paul II once said:

“I would like to confirm with the deepest conviction that the teaching of the church, given during the Second Vatican Council in the declaration Nostra Aetate … always remains for us, for the Catholic Church, for the episcopate … and for the pope,** a teaching to which one must adhere, a teaching which one must accept not only as something relevant but even more, as an expression of faith**, as an inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as a word of divine wisdom…”

*- (Blessed Pope John Paul II, Speech to the Jewish community in Venezuela, Jan. 15, 1985) *

The phrase “an expression of faith” (de fide meaning, “of faith”) I think clarifies it perfectly.

 

[Sam_777]

"…It is the Spirit who is the source of the drive to press on, not only geographically but also beyond the frontiers of race and religion, for a truly universal mission…The Spirit’s presence and activity affect not only the individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions. Indeed, the Spirit is at the origin of the noble ideals and undertakings which benefit humanity on its journey through history: “The Spirit of God with marvelous foresight directs the course of the ages and renews the face of the earth…I have repeatedly called this fact to mind, and it has guided me in my meetings with a wide variety of peoples. The Church’s relationship with other religions is dictated by a twofold respect: “Respect for man in his quest for answers to the deepest questions of his life, and respect for the action of the Spirit in man.” The interreligious meeting held in Assisi was meant to confirm my conviction that 'every authentic prayer is prompted by the Holy Spirit, who is mysteriously present in every human heart.’…Every form of the Spirit’s presence is to be welcomed with respect and gratitude, but the discernment of this presence is the responsibility of the Church, to which Christ gave his Spirit in order to guide her into all the truth…”

-Pope John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio, 1990

Shall I understand from the above quote that if the person is very bad (e.g., Pheron, Hitler), it means the Holy Spirit never presented in their hearts?

 

[Godfollower]

Shall I understand from the above quote that if the person is very bad (e.g., Pheron, Hitler), it means the Holy Spirit never presented in their hearts?

No. It simply means that they ignored the Spirit’s call. The Holy Spirit is present in every human heart; God’s law is written on every human heart.

But we are all free to disobey God and break His law.

 

[Sam_777]

No. It simply means that they ignored the Spirit’s call. The Holy Spirit is present in every human heart; God’s law is written on every human heart.

But we are all free to disobey God and break His law.

Those are very Interesting concepts…

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Sufism does not represent Islam at all, it’s considered a heretic group by Sunnis and Shias Muslims…

There have been some really good posts here and Sam’s question is a good one. I know we don’t see eye to eye my friend, but your question sounds like the sort of thing you should be posting
I just wanted to plea to you Sam, to just leave Wikipedia as a source of information. It can be handy initially and to identify where to go next, but in itself it is worthless. Anyone can write anything. A friend of mine changed the details of a famous Bollywood actress to his own wife (as they share the same name), was like that for 3 months beforeit was changed! Even though, it still wasn’t accurate!
When people says Sufi Islam, what are they referring to? It makes it sound like another religion, but it’s a part not separate. It’s a bit like saying mystical orders like the Benedictines or whatever is a separate denomination??? Of course there is some truth in what people have said, but as it is, is very misleading. For example Qasidah Burdah - a poem written by a ‘sufi’ out of love for Muhammad - is the most copied work after the Quran in the Muslim world! Also someone like Ghazali - known as hujjat ul Islam - is generally considered the most influential scholar of Islamic history and is very much a Sufi. Like I said it depends whom we are talking about, but if we mean Sufism as the first names that spring to mind like Rumi then - being a Sunni Hanafi jurist and most published poet in world history - it clearly is mainstream Islam, but just a branch - I certainly view his Masnavi as one closer to the spirit of Christianity.
Whatever we think of the ‘other side’ let’s be fair hey

 

[Sam_777]

I just wanted to plea to you Sam, to just leave Wikipedia as a source of information. It can be handy initially and to identify where to go next, but in itself it is worthless.

Well, it’s the only English source for such things, else if I posted an Arabic reference then no one would read it…

 

[mercytruth]

Well, it’s the only English source for such things, else if I posted an Arabic reference then no one would read it…

Sam_777,

Mysticism is an ambiguous term that may lead an individual into a light that may be from darkness. This is true within Judaism, and within Christianity as well. We must discern the source of the ‘enlightenment’. Is it from the Spirit of God, or from somewhere else?

islamicpluralism.org/1908/islamic-sufism-and-jewish-kabbalah

 

[couponfit]

My dear brother Devout

People understand this teaching in different ways, and I’m not prepared to say which is the correct one. However the Vatican II documents Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium, as well as the Catechism, both mention Islam and Catholics are certainly bound by those teachings - ie we must obey them, give assent. However people debate precisely what the Church is actually telling us.

Personally, I believe that Muslims do indeed worship the same God but simply have a different, that is inferior, understanding of Him (not that anyone can understand Him in Essence - as he is in Himself). Indeed we are all united, all of us whether Christian or Muslim or else, in not being able to fully comprehend God who is so very far above our finite understanding. We thus have no cause, despite the Truth we have in Christ, to feel ourselves superior to our Muslim brothers and sisters. We are all united in the search for truth.

Without Christ, and without the direct divine revelation of Judaism, Islam - despite much truth and inspiration from the Holy Spirit - has a deficient understanding of the One God - which is understandable given that without Our Lord he is so cold and distant and “other” and unknowable. In this respect, and influenced by the harsh Arabic desert environment from which Islam emerged, the Muslim conception of God can often appear to us Christians to be rather violent and xenophobic. This is of course not universally true, for there are stunningly beautiful, inspired ayats in the Qur’an often mixed in with this cruelty - for example the very moving one which says that if we take just one human life it is accounted as if we have slain the swhole of mankind; or the one which says, “you have your religion and I have mine”.

Sufi Islam, inspired perhaps by the ayat of the Qur’an which said that God is closer to us than our jugular vein, took great strides towards creating a much more personal, intimate understanding of God that is very close to Christianity.

I wanted to add three quotes from three holy Popes - a Blessed, a Saint and a Servant of God - two from recent times and one from a thousand years ago on Islam. Pope John Paul II’s statement below is illuminating (in fact I encourage you to do a google search and read the full address):

“…Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a very model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection…The Catholic Church regards with respect and recognizes the equality of your religious progress, the richness of your spiritual tradition…On this path, you are assured, of the esteem and the collaboration of your Catholic brothers and sisters whom I represent among you this evening…”

- Blessed Pope John Paul II: Address to young Muslims in Casablanca, 1985

“…This good action was inspired in your heart by God, the Creator of all things, without whom we can neither do nor think any good thing. He who enlightens all men coming into this world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races **because we worship and confess the same God **though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, ‘He is our peace who hath made both one.’ This good action was inspired in your heart by God…This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities . . .] For God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in this life and in the life to come. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth…”

*- Pope St. Gregory VII, Letter XXI to Al-Nasir the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya (Algeria), 1076 *

Of the above Pope John Paul II said in 1990:

“…I close my greeting to you with the words of one of my predecessors, Pope Gregory VII who in 1076 wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria…These words, written almost a thousand years ago, express my feelings to you today as you celebrate ‘Id al-Fitr, the Feast of the Breaking of the Fast. May the Most High God fill us with all His merciful love and peace…”

- Blessed Pope John Paul II, Message to the faithful of Islam at the end of the month of Ramadan, April 3, 1991

“…Now [we refer] to the adorers of God according to the conception of monotheism, the Muslim religion especially, deserving of our admiration for all that is true and good in their worship of God…”

- Servant of God Pope Paul VI, Ecclesiam Suam 107, August 6, 1964

This is a fair comment. NA and LG take efforts to really bridge the gap of hate and hositility between muslims and catholics. The idea is to find common ground and acknowledge we both pray towards a godhead despite the doctrinal differences which are massive. There are common grounds. Mary! Jesus! Both are praised in the Quran, even if Christ is not considered a God. There is some common ground from which we, as a social community, can work together.

 

[Bernadette173]

This is a fair comment. NA and LG take efforts to really bridge the gap of hate and hositility between muslims and catholics. The idea is to find common ground and acknowledge we both pray towards a godhead despite the doctrinal differences which are massive. There are common grounds. Mary! Jesus! Both are praised in the Quran, even if Christ is not considered a God. There is some common ground from which we, as a social community, can work together.

This has come to my understanding and reading and trying to understand the Bible’s OT teachings as well. Muslims come from the line of Ishmael and Abraham, and the context of the early books is very harsh indeed. But to be able to have people adhere to the Word God gave them, [Muslims and Jewish]penalties for misbehavior, had to be attached, because Christ had not come yet the ‘heart of the law’ as it were had not been delivered yet. Not that there is any inherent mistake that Muslims worship any other God than God Himself. We all worship one God and one God head They call Him Allah [allah] and we call Him God the Father Almighty, that is all.And it is in viewing with high favor Mary and Jesus that Muslims have many things in common with Catholics, and also that Muslims acknowledge a Creator who created them that they would do good to their fellow man/woman. Inasmuch the Catholic faith also teaches to love they neighbor as ones self, to pray for those who acurse you and to offer the other cheek if someone persecutes you for your belief.
Do not persecute those who have not the understanding of your religion and remember to help, be generous, have empathy and understanding;but most of all, LOVE for your fellow brothers and sisters in God, the God of Abraham, Issac, Ishmael, and yes the God of Jesus who is considered a prophet to Muslims. Getting to know God is to reach out to others in love and respect for the differences they have and accepting them as they are. In the imperfect broken human condition that we are all in.

Peace and God Bless,

 

[rinnie]

I’ve heard that the church’s position that Muslims worship the same God as Christians constitutes a teaching on faith or morals that Catholics must give religious assent to. Is this true and if so, how is it a teaching on faith or morals?

Oh geeze here we go again!

The CCC teaches that Muslims proclaim the faith of Abraham and together with us adore the One True God.

Thats the short version/

Okay to proclaim the faith of Abraham means that they acknowledge Abraham as their Earthly Father the same as us.

Remember when God told Abraham he would have more decendants then the stars in the sky, That is what the faith of Abraham is, they acknowledge him and consider themselves as one of his desendants. The same as us.

Now they not only acknowledge him they accept his God, the One God the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

SO to wrap this up, they proclaim the faith of Abraham and TOGETHER with us adore the ONE TRUE GOD.

The RCC can only teach the truth.

That is truth. Just because they follow the teachings of a false prophet, has nothing to do with having the faith of Abraham, and believing in the One True God the creator of heaven and earth.

So faith of Abraham means they consider him Father Abraham the same as us, and consider themself as his desendants the same as we do.

 

[JimmyMiller]

My heart is breaking as I read these posts! I came to this forum searching for answers as to how Islam could be included in God’s plan for salvation (as the catachism states). I can’t believe what I’m hearing. I didn’t want to believe it was true, but if what is being said on this thread is official church doctrine, then my fear has been realized. How could the vicar of Christ embrace a doctrine that denies Christ’s Deity? For the sake of social justice? For the sake of world peace?

1 John 2:22, Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

Church…how can this be!!!

 

[BenedictFTW]

In our parish, and the attached school that our son attends, it is taught that Muslims are good Christians. Malcolm X has been referenced specifically as a Christian. So, there you are.

How does this make sense to you?

 

[BenedictFTW]

Oh geeze here we go again!

The CCC teaches that Muslims proclaim the faith of Abraham and together with us adore the One True God.

Thats the short version/

Okay to proclaim the faith of Abraham means that they acknowledge Abraham as their Earthly Father the same as us.

Remember when God told Abraham he would have more decendants then the stars in the sky, That is what the faith of Abraham is, they acknowledge him and consider themselves as one of his desendants. The same as us.

Now they not only acknowledge him they accept his God, the One God the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

SO to wrap this up, they proclaim the faith of Abraham and TOGETHER with us adore the ONE TRUE GOD.

The RCC can only teach the truth.

That is truth. Just because they follow the teachings of a false prophet, has nothing to do with having the faith of Abraham, and believing in the One True God the creator of heaven and earth.

So faith of Abraham means they consider him Father Abraham the same as us, and consider themself as his desendants the same as we do.

This is the first time I have ever heard that explained so that I could get my head around it. Thank you. I have long wondered how we could reconcile the obvious conflicts between our beliefs and those of Muslims. Of course, I have never heard any Muslim talk about believing in the God of Abraham. I have heard my friends, all Christians, SAY that they do, but all I ever hear Muslims talk about is Mohammed. Now, this makes some sense. Still worry about it though, because Jesus says that unless we believe in Him, we cannot get to the Father (ie believe in the Father). Jesus also says that we cannot come to Him unless the Father draws us to Him. It may explain why Muslims do not believe in Jesus because God, the Father, has not drawn them towards Jesus yet. In any case, we must comply with the infallible teachings of our Church. Ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

I agree with you, except that I think they should most certainly be praised for their piety. they’re wrong, no doubt about it, but I think it’s kind of counter productive to go about insulting them for very little.

Are you sure they are pious?
I was in a Muslim country as the stories I was told put me off.
From people who miss work to go to the prayers of the day but DO NOT go to the prayers of the night for they are not working…
In Ramadan, the rich living by night where they may eat at will and sleeping by day…
Look at he world: when do you see the great demonstrations? On Fridays, after prayers where they have been incensed to fight and kill and make revenge (just look at the news…).
Pious? In every religion you see monks. In Islam, zero.
I was born under Islamic shadow and were much in favor of them, till starting knowing them better. They are the most dangerous thing in today’s world.

 

[itullian]

since Christ is fully God , it’s not the same God.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

That’s the thing that always gets me about these “Do Muslims worship the same God we do?” threads: it’s as if you believe that God’s nature is defined by His worshipers. That’s simply incorrect. God’s nature derives from God Himself, and nothing any human being does can change it.

God is God, whether you believe He’s male, female, or neither; whether you believe that He’s one Person or Three; whether you believe that Jesus was human, divine, or both; whether you believe that the Messiah has already come or has not; and whether you believe that Mohammed was a prophet or not. And, when you send out a prayer to God, there’s only one God out there to receive it.

Let’s take your objections one by one.

That’s exactly what many have said about the God of the Bible. Check out Exodus 32:27 (“And he said to them: Thus saith the Lord God of Israel: Put every man his sword upon his thigh: go, and return from gate to gate through the midst of the camp, and let every man kill his brother, and friend, and neighbour.”). Does that mean that the God of the Jews is not the same God as the God of the Christians? Because that’s gonna be hard to explain.

Check out our Bible: “The Lord is a jealous God, and a revenger: the Lord is a revenger, and hath wrath: the Lord taketh vengeance on his adversaries, and he is angry with his enemies. The Lord is patient, and great in power, and will not cleanse and acquit the guilty.” Nahum 1:1-2. Muslims could say the same thing about the Bible’s depiction of God that you’re saying from the Koran.

Read Joshua some time.

Jacob married two sisters and sired children on both of them and their handmaids.

---

The point is, it’s useless to say that we worship different Gods. For one thing, that necessarily involves the blasphemy of saying that there are, in fact, multiple gods.

It made sense for the pagans to say “Our god is the god of war and hunting. Your god is the god of music and wine. Obviously they’re different gods.” Because they believed that there were multiple gods, and they could use the attributes of the so-called gods to figure out whether they were worshiping the same god by different names or different gods entirely.

In truth, however, there is only one God. If I believe one thing about God, and you believe another, then either we’re both right about Him; we’re both wrong about Him; or one of us is right and the other is wrong.

But, just because we disagree about Him doesn’t mean there must be different Gods. There’s only one of Him. If the Muslims say something about Him that’s wrong, then they’ve simply described Him incorrectly.

Suppose I say “Lincoln fought the Civil War to free the slaves” and you say “Lincoln fought the Civil War to preserve the Union.” Are we describing two separate Lincolns? No; we’re describing the same guy, although we disagree about his attributes. Or suppose I say “Elvis is dead” and you say “No, he just went home.” There’s only one Elvis; we just disagree about what happened. It’s the same with Christians and Muslims. We’re both worshiping the only God there is; they just don’t understand what we worship as well as we do (though we still have a long way to go).

Similarly, suppose I flip a coin and cover it as soon as it lands. You might be absolutely convinced from evidence you find persuasive that it landed heads up. Meanwhile, devoutchristian might be just as convinced from evidence s/he finds persuasive that it landed tails up. I know the answer by revelation; you’re both coming to a rational conclusion based on what you’ve been told.

But there’s only one coin, and you’re both describing the same one.

So the God who orders killing of raped female children because they became impure the same God as the Christian God?

You compare with Old Testament. Do you know that there is a New Testament? Do you know that Jesus, on saying farwell said: “I give to you a NEW commandment: love each other as I loved you!”. New Commandment! That is what makes Islam outdated: In 600 after Christ came with an ideology which came from Exodus, 2000 years BEFORE Christ. It is a retrocess in time. Benedictus XVI was right when said that Islam did not bring anything but war and violence.

No, it is not 1 coin with 2 faces. It is 2 coins with 1 face. They say that it is the same God but it is not. As if I called train to a train a to a car and say “train” for the 2 objects. And as I say train when I mention a train and a car, then a train and a car are the same thing. Wrong. The problem is that I am using the same word God for 2 different entities: the Christian God and the Islam god, which is something else, not the true God.

That is a trick.

All ex-communist countries had in their names the word “democratic”. Do you want to understand it better? Democratic People’s Republic of Korea! So, North Korea is democratic!!!

 

[rinnie]

My heart is breaking as I read these posts! I came to this forum searching for answers as to how Islam could be included in God’s plan for salvation (as the catachism states). I can’t believe what I’m hearing. I didn’t want to believe it was true, but if what is being said on this thread is official church doctrine, then my fear has been realized. How could the vicar of Christ embrace a doctrine that denies Christ’s Deity? For the sake of social justice? For the sake of world peace?

1 John 2:22, Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

Church…how can this be!!!

How can you accuse the Pope as denying Christ and accuse him of accepting a false doctrine? Where did the Pope ever embrace or teach the teaching of Islam?

All the Pope stated is the truth. The God that they pray to is indeed the same God we pray to. Just because they cannot see that Jesus Christ is indeed that same God, has nothing to do with the Pope.

How can him seeing as God the Creator of heaven and earth, as they do, and them not seeing God the creator of heaven and earth also Christ Jesus as the Pope teaches make the pope a Liar?

Where did the Pope ever deny Christ in the Trinity?

 

[rinnie]

This is the first time I have ever heard that explained so that I could get my head around it. Thank you. I have long wondered how we could reconcile the obvious conflicts between our beliefs and those of Muslims. Of course, I have never heard any Muslim talk about believing in the God of Abraham. I have heard my friends, all Christians, SAY that they do, but all I ever hear Muslims talk about is Mohammed. Now, this makes some sense. Still worry about it though, because Jesus says that unless we believe in Him, we cannot get to the Father (ie believe in the Father). Jesus also says that we cannot come to Him unless the Father draws us to Him. It may explain why Muslims do not believe in Jesus because God, the Father, has not drawn them towards Jesus yet. In any case, we must comply with the infallible teachings of our Church. Ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit.

You are correct. We do indeed have to accept Jesus as God. But remember another Church teaching if someone by no fault of their own. follow God the only way and the best way they can also may receive eternal life.

Now with that said, am I saying they can enter heaven without salvation through Christ? No. I am saying they will receive it through Christ, but guess thats when they will find out the truth about Christ.

What people do not understand is they are taught a false doctrine by Muhammad. But just because Muhammad claims that the angel came to him, etc. does not make God the creator of heaven and earth the God of Abraham false. Do you see what I am saying. It just makes Muhammad a false prophet.

What people fail to see in the teachings of the Church is this, Muhammad never prayed to a false God either. And the people never prayed to Muhammad they do pray to God the creator Our God.

What you must remember also is this. The God of Abraham who indeed is Jesus did not reveal himself until the N.T. SO Abraham did not teach exactly that Christ was God in the O.T.

Now of course that does not say Muhammad did not reject Christ, we all agree on this, he knew about Christ and his Church, he just rejected it and made his own religion.

To sum it up, a false religion does not make the true God false. Just the doctrine false.