Church teaching on Islam

[rinnie]

The problem with Wandile and others is that they are speaking in Black and White, or rather, True, False.
All religions adore God, even the ones who have 100 million god.
But, the full, the fullness of Revelation is in the RCC, better in Jesus Christ.

This is a false statement. Budda does not follow the One true God the creator of heaven and earth.

Many religions follow false gods, many believe the sun is a god, Etc.

 

[jam070406]

If Saul had the faith of Abraham why did he need to be converted?

 

[jam070406]

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 10:20 that gentiles didn’t offer worship to God but to demons.
He says in Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham comes to them in Jesus.

 

[rinnie]

If Saul had the faith of Abraham why did he need to be converted?

Because Father Abraham did not reveal to us that Jesus Christ was the word become flesh. Jesus did.

And simply because Jesus fullfilled the O.T. Matt 5:17

If Abraham gave us the fullness of the truth why did Christ say he came to fullfill the Old law.

Christ gave us a new standard higher then the old.

It was the word that became flesh and died for our sins that made it possible for us to enter heaven. Even our faith or belief could not save us. We still had sin as Abraham had sin.

If Abraham did not have sin he would not have died. Christ told you he came to die so we could have eternal life.

But just because Abraham prayed to the one true God, and taught us to pray to the One true God did not mean we could have eternal life. It took Jesus to take away our sins.

The O.Law and the New law has nothing to do with the one True God.

 

[jam070406]

You are correct that it is questionable whether Muslims have the faith of Abraham, even though some on here INSIST like it’s divinely revealed Truth that they do.
It can be demonstrated from Scripture and Tradition that they DO NOT.

It can also be argued that when the Church claims that Muslims worship the one true God, it can be taken to mean that they THINK they do.

Just like Paul, and later Saints like St. John Chrysostom, says about those that thought they were offering worship to God, in fact, were offering worship to demons.
Further as Paul says, and the Church Teaches, that the Faith of Abraham comes to individuals in belief of Jesus Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 10:20 that gentiles didn’t offer worship to God but to demons.
He says in Galatians 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham comes to them in Jesus.

Exactly and this is exactly what the church teaches.

The Church of Christ acknowledges that in God’s plan of salvation the beginnings of its faith and election are to be found in the partiarchs, Moses and the prophets.

It Professes that all Christ’s faithful, who as people of fairth are daughters and sons of Abraham Gal,3:7 are INCLUDED in the same partiarch’s call and that the salvation of the church is MYSTICALLY PREFIGURED in the exodus of Gods’s chosen people from the land of bondage.

If you read the Vatican 11 constitutions decrees declarations you can read this more clearly.

This is why in our faith we proclaim that the Church is a mystery of our faith. It is hard to see for us at times how other faiths are somehow incorporated into the One true Church, But they are,

Like we are also taught that all people that are baptised in the name of the Trinity belong to the Catholic Church. Tell a Protestant that one. They will fight you tooth and nail. But its the truth.

 

[jam070406]

Because Father Abraham did not reveal to us that Jesus Christ was the word become flesh. Jesus did.

And simply because Jesus fullfilled the O.T. Matt 5:17

If Abraham gave us the fullness of the truth why did Christ say he came to fullfill the Old law.

Christ gave us a new standard higher then the old.

It was the word that became flesh and died for our sins that made it possible for us to enter heaven. Even our faith or belief could not save us. We still had sin as Abraham had sin.

If Abraham did not have sin he would not have died. Christ told you he came to die so we could have eternal life.

But just because Abraham prayed to the one true God, and taught us to pray to the One true God did not mean we could have eternal life. It took Jesus to take away our sins.

The O.Law and the New law has nothing to do with the one True God.

Why do keep going back prior to Jesus? Jesus IS the Faith of Abraham. Period.
He revealed it, Muslims reject it. Just like the Jews in which Jesus was talking to cannot fall back on Abraham, neither can Muslims. The fact that someone may be a decendent of Abraham no longer matters. Jesus told us this.
Before Abraham I AM!
There is no longer Jew nor Gentile. There are those that accept Jesus and those that reject Jesus.

 

[jam070406]

Exactly and this is exactly what the church teaches.

The Church of Christ acknowledges that in God’s plan of salvation the beginnings of its faith and election are to be found in the partiarchs, Moses and the prophets.

It Professes that all Christ’s faithful, who as people of fairth are daughters and sons of Abraham Gal,3:7 are INCLUDED in the same partiarch’s call and that the salvation of the church is MYSTICALLY PREFIGURED in the exodus of Gods’s chosen people from the land of bondage.

If you read the Vatican 11 constitutions decrees declarations you can read this more clearly.

This is why in our faith we proclaim that the Church is a mystery of our faith. It is hard to see for us at times how other faiths are somehow incorporated into the One true Church, But they are,

Like we are also taught that all people that are baptised in the name of the Trinity belong to the Catholic Church. Tell a Protestant that one. They will fight you tooth and nail. But its the truth.

And yet you continue to make excuse for those that reject Jesus. Claiming relation to Abraham WILL NOT SAVE THEM. Jesus tells us this in the Gospels to the Jews that try to do that very same thing.

 

[rinnie]

You are correct that it is questionable whether Muslims have the faith of Abraham, even though some on here INSIST like it’s divinely revealed Truth that they do.
It can be demonstrated from Scripture and Tradition that they DO NOT.

It can also be argued that when the Church claims that Muslims worship the one true God, it can be taken to mean that they THINK they do.

Just like Paul, and later Saints like St. John Chrysostom, says about those that thought they were offering worship to God, in fact, were offering worship to demons.
Further as Paul says, and the Church Teaches, that the Faith of Abraham comes to individuals in belief of Jesus Christ.

This is not what the Church teaches.

It is stated in the Vatican Council 11

They worship God who is ONE Living and subsistent merciful and almighty the creator of heaven and earth.

It does not state he Church believes they may or might or could. It state they do.

Why would the council state the CC rejects NOTHING what is true, And why would it state they have a High Regard for the Muslims for the God they worship, if they worshipped a false god?

 

[jam070406]

This is not what the Church teaches.

It is stated in the Vatican Council 11

They worship God who is ONE Living and subsistent merciful and almighty the creator of heaven and earth.

It does not state he Church believes they may or might or could. It state they do.

Why would the council state the CC rejects NOTHING what is true, And why would it state they have a High Regard for the Muslims for the God they worship, if they worshipped a false god?

Because Rinnie, it’s flowery language to affirm their belief in monotheism as a preparation to break their bondage to a false religion and bring them to Jesus and true worship which is only found in the sacrifice of the Holy Mass.

 

[rinnie]

And yet you continue to make excuse for those that reject Jesus. Claiming relation to Abraham WILL NOT SAVE THEM. Jesus tells us this in the Gospels to the Jews that try to do that very same thing.

Where in the world did I ever make an excuse for them. I said Muslims have a false doctrine. Where did I say they are excused for not accepting Christ?

All I ever said is the Church teaches us that if we are not taught the truth we cannot be bound to it.

The Quran has a high respectful toward Jesus. They are taught that him and the Blessed Mother of being of exceptional purity. They are not taught he is indeed the true Son of God.

But where did I ever say that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ? I never said any such thing. And I am not making excuses for anyone. I am just stating the truth.

We believe that it is pretty much (name removed by moderator)ossible to convert Islams to the truth. They hate Christians so much.

But we have one hope that we never continue to loose. We believe it is the Blessed Mother who is going to be the one to bring them to her Son.

Here is why, There are so many paths of truth they do have about her. They have verses of the Annunciation, the Visitation and angels are pictures as accompanying her saying. Oh Mary God has chosen you and purified you and elected you above all the women of the earth.

The 19 chapter of the Koran has 41 verses on Jesus and Mary.

There is much more to talk about her, and why we believe she will be the one to bring them to Jesus. But we can’t get de-railed on that. It would be a great thread to start though.

But again has nothing to do with the Church accepting that they do not pray to a false god. The Church teaches they do indeed have the One true God.

 

[rinnie]

Because Rinnie, it’s flowery language to affirm their belief in monotheism as a preparation to break their bondage to a false religion and bring them to Jesus and true worship which is only found in the sacrifice of the Holy Mass.

Why?

 

[BenedictFTW]

The problem with this is that the CCC is not as clear as most people think it is on this topic. It dances around the issue but never definitively claims that they worship the same God as us.

"The Conciliar statement also wisely adds the caveat, all
too often ignored by the Church’s critics, that
“Mohammedans” (Musulmanos) are “professing” to hold
the faith of Abraham. Whether or not they actually hold it
is arguable, but the Vatican Council is only noting that
they claim for their faith that it is that of Abraham, without
discussing whether or not Islam actually is an
authentically Abrahamic faith.

Likewise widely misinterpreted, or at least given a
weight that it was clearly never meant to bear, is the
subsequent affirmation that Muslims “along with us
adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will
judge mankind.” Many see in this also an assertion that
the Gospel need not be preached to Muslims, or that
they are already saved, for they adore the one and
merciful God. Many Catholics, including writers of some
prominence, have asserted that Vatican II, and the
Catechism of the Catholic Church that quotes it, teach
that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, and
then proceed as if this establishes more than it actually
does, or as if it were obvious that the Council was thus
forbidding a critical stance toward Islam or concern
about Islamic supremacist advances in Europe and the
U.S.

In declaring that both Muslims and Catholics adore the
one and merciful God, the Council obviously did not
mean that Muslims and Catholics regard that God in
exactly the same way, or that the differences were
insignificant. The Council is silent on the question of
whether or not the Muslims’ adoration is blind or
informed. So what, then, is the Council actually saying?
Vatican II was a large-scale attempt to restore
relationships that had been broken for centuries and
build new bridges of trust where groups had been
divided from the Church by centuries of mistrust,
suspicion and outright conflict. Consequently it
emphasized common ground rather than differences,
unlike every ecumenical council that preceded it. No
case, however, can be made that its statement about the
shared adoration of the one and merciful God in any
way mitigated the Church’s truth claim or sense of its
own responsibility to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ,
any more than shared monotheism removes that
responsibility in regard to Protestants or anyone else,
for that responsibility is reiterated in the same passage.
It is not even certain that the Council is saying that
Muslims and Catholics adore the same “one and
merciful God.” Muslims certainly believe that their one
and merciful God is the same One whom Christians
(and Jews) worship, for the Qur’an tells them so (29:46).
And whether they know it or not, the only God actually
available to receive their adoration and hear their
prayers is the Christian one. However, the differences in
how Muslims and Catholics conceive of the one and
merciful God lead to the possibility that while Muslims
believe that they are worshiping the same God that
Catholic worship, the teachings of Islam itself, despite
the Qur’an’s insistence that Muslims worship the same
God as do Christians and Jews, actually paints a picture
of a God who is substantially different from the God of
the Bible and the Catholic Faith."

• Robert Spencer

For more info see Do Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?

 

[Vouthon]

“…Therefore, come to our aid you who alone are able. For this rivalry [among religions] exists for sake of you, whom alone they revere in everything that all seem to worship. For each one desires in all that he seems to desire only the good which you are; no one is seeking with all his intellectual searching for anything else than the truth which you are. For what does the living seek except to live? What does the existing seek except to exist? Therefore, it is you, the giver of life and being, who is being sought in different religions in various ways, and who are named with different names, because as you are you remain unknown and ineffable to all…Therefore, do not hide Yourself any longer, O Lord. Be propitious, and manifest Your face; and all peoples will be saved, who no longer will be able to desert the Source of life and its sweetness, once having foretasted even a little thereof. For no one departs from You except because He is ignorant of You. If You will graciously grant it, the sword will cease, as will also the malice of hatred and all evils; and all will come to know that there is only one religion in the variety of faiths [rites]…”

- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 –1464)

 

[jam070406]

Where in the world did I ever make an excuse for them. I said Muslims have a false doctrine. Where did I say they are excused for not accepting Christ?

All I ever said is the Church teaches us that if we are not taught the truth we cannot be bound to it.

The Quran has a high respectful toward Jesus. They are taught that him and the Blessed Mother of being of exceptional purity. They are not taught he is indeed the true Son of God.

But where did I ever say that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ? I never said any such thing. And I am not making excuses for anyone. I am just stating the truth.

We believe that it is pretty much (name removed by moderator)ossible to convert Islams to the truth. They hate Christians so much.

But we have one hope that we never continue to loose. We believe it is the Blessed Mother who is going to be the one to bring them to her Son.

Here is why, There are so many paths of truth they do have about her. They have verses of the Annunciation, the Visitation and angels are pictures as accompanying her saying. Oh Mary God has chosen you and purified you and elected you above all the women of the earth.

The 19 chapter of the Koran has 41 verses on Jesus and Mary.

There is much more to talk about her, and why we believe she will be the one to bring them to Jesus. But we can’t get de-railed on that. It would be a great thread to start though.

But again has nothing to do with the Church accepting that they do not pray to a false god. The Church teaches they do indeed have the One true God.

It doesn’t matter if they think Jesus is a prophet or nice guy. It’s a denial of His divinity. It’s blasphemy. It’s as the Gospels say, Antichrist.

Of course the Church doesn’t explicitly say they worship a false god.
It merely claim that they worship the one true God along with us.
Together but different, seperate. Their false ideas.
Some of which are good, as the Church points out. Some REALLY bad, that the Church did not mention.
So we are over here worshipping the one true God.
They are over there (claiming they are) worshipping the one true God.
Both together but both different. One path true, one path not.

 

[rinnie]

Check this out.

There was this Moslem chief who had a beautiful daughter, her name was FATIMA. Sound familliar.

Now she fell in love with a CATHOLIC boy, she not only stayed behind when the Moslems left she embraced the faith.

Now her husband loved her so much he changed the name of the town to Fatima.

This is the very place in 1917 where the Blessed Mother appeared and there is a Historical connection to Fatima and the daughter of Muhammad.

Now it gets better. Moslems in Africa and India gave to the pilgrim statue of our lady of Fatima. Moslmes attented church services in honor of our Lady and allowed religious processions and even PRAYERS before THEIR MOSQUES in Mosambique the Moslems who were UN-CONVERTED began to be CHRISTIAN as SOON as the statue of OUR Lady of FATIMA was ERECTED!!

Go figure. Look it up!

 

[jam070406]

Why?

Because salvation is only through Jesus.

 

[rinnie]

It doesn’t matter if they think Jesus is a prophet or nice guy. It’s a denial of His divinity. It’s blasphemy. It’s as the Gospels say, Antichrist.

Of course the Church doesn’t explicitly say they worship a false god.
It merely claim that they worship the one true God along with us.
Together but different, seperate. Their false ideas.
Some of which are good, as the Church points out. Some REALLY bad, that the Church did not mention.
So we are over here worshipping the one true God.
They are over there (claiming they are) worshipping the one true God.
Both together but both different. One path true, one path not.

Okay then you know more then I and the Church and them. You tell us. Who are they worshipping? Tell me this false god you accuse them of worshipping.

But remember when you accuse them, you must accuse us also. Because our Church teaches us, TOGETHER WITH US worship the One true God. So what now? Who is this one true God we are worshipping together with them?

 

[rinnie]

Because salvation is only through Jesus.

Do you not think I know this. Where did I ever say Salvation is not through Jesus Christ. Is Jesus Christ not the One True God, the creator of heaven and earth?

Is Jesus and this God different?

 

[Vouthon]

“…With many groanings I beseeched the Creator of all, because of His kindness, to restrain the persecution that was raging more fiercely than usual on account of the difference of faith between the religions…For all men have the desire and the hope only for eternal life in their own human nature…”

- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 –1464)

“…The goal and intent of the book of the Qur’an, is not only not to detract from God the creator or from Christ or from God’s prophets and envoys or from the divine books of the Testament, the Psalter, and the Gospel, but also to give glory to God the Creator, to praise and bear witness to Christ (the son of the Virgin Mary) above all prophets, and to confirm and approve of the Testament and the Gospel. When one reads the Qur’an with this understanding, assuredly some fruit can be elicited from it…We find passages in the Qur’an that are useful for us…”

- Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (1401 –1464)