Church teaching on Islam

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rinnie said:
Oh I know the scripture quite well. But are you also saying protestants who do not accept the Eucharist as the living bread from heaven pray to a false god??:eek:
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Nobody has said that but you. It’s your strawman argument that you keep propping up to equate Muslims and Protestants.
 
BenedictFTW said:
Muslims reject two of the Persons in the Trinity. I think that is what the poster was referring to. How can they reject two of the Divine Persons without rejecting God. Where does it say in our CCC that we can do that?
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Where did I ever say that the CCC said we can deny the teaching’s of our faith?

Where does the Church teach that Muslims have the fullness of the truth?

The CHurch teaches they believe in the same God as us. The One true God. The Church never said they understand the fullness of that One God that has been revealed to us in the Trinity.

The Church is here to bring ALL people to the fullness of the faith.

I nor anyone here ever said Muslims have the fullness of the truth, nor did the Church ever say any such thing. We said that they do know the one true God revealed to them by Abraham.

Do you not understand the Koran does not have the truth. Do you not understand the Koran does not teach the Divinity of Christ that is revealed to us by the True Prophets. The truth was not revealed to them. They have a false teaching and false prophet. But they pray to the same God.
Why is this so hard to comprehend?

Why can you not understand a FALSE PROPHET can teach a FALSE DOCTRINE, but can also teach a TRUTH. And the TRUTH Muhammad had was there is only ONE TRUE GOD the God of creator and heaven and earth.
 
rinnie said:
Where did I ever say that the CCC said we can deny the teaching’s of our faith?

Where does the Church teach that Muslims have the fullness of the truth?

The CHurch teaches they believe in the same God as us. The One true God. The Church never said they understand the fullness of that One God that has been revealed to us in the Trinity.

The Church is here to bring ALL people to the fullness of the faith.

I nor anyone here ever said Muslims have the fullness of the truth, nor did the Church ever say any such thing. We said that they do know the one true God revealed to them by Abraham.

Do you not understand the Koran have the truth. Do you not understand the Koran does not teach the Divinity of Christ that is revealed to us by the True Prophets. The truth was not revealed to them. They have a false teaching and false prophet. But they pray to the same God.
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Yes. I have heard this and read it in the CCC. This is a very hard teaching, as it is impossible for me to get my head around to how ANYONE - Muslim or Christian - can divide the Trinity and choose to only believe in the Father. Also, the Koran is not a reliable font of knowledge by any Christian standard. So, please do not quote that to me again.

I quote from our Bible, which is the teachings of Our Blessed Lord, Jesus Christ. EVERY WORD He spoke is Truth, undeniable. And He tells us that nobody gets to the Father except through Him.

St John tells us that those who deny the Son, also deny the Father.

Scripture seems to contradict what you say.
 
jam070406 said:
I was referring to the persons of Trinity, but I think you knew that.

Yes, there is One God in 3 persons, the Trinity …that Jews and Muslims reject.
You’re really floundering now.
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Where is it taught that if you reject Christ in the Trinity the God of Abraham is a false god.
 
fms said:
CCC 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
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This is about Muslims, not Islam. The topic is the “Church teaching on Islam”. What does the CCC say about Islam?
 
rinnie said:
Where is it taught that if you reject Christ in the Trinity the God of Abraham is a false god.
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You are referring back to a time when Jesus was not revealed as the fulfillment of the Prophecies. Of course, before the time of Christ, Abraham was the ‘Father of Faith’. Jesus said that children of Abraham could be raised up from the very stones. This is not hard for God. However, Jesus is the NEW COVENANT between God and His Chosen People - Jesus is the True Vine and we are the grafted on branches. To say that anyone can still be saved without Jesus is to call Jesus a liar!

For the sake of our souls, I think we should be EXTREMELY careful not to do that.
 
I didn’t say that. Rinnie did, take it up with her.
Denying a tenet of the Catholic Faith is not the same as worshipping a false God. It following ours own passions. It’s a total strawman to claim Protestants the deny the Eucharist worship a false god. There is usually an underlying factor such as pride or refusal to submit to the authority of the Church. The argument is really not good and it’s pointless to keep coming back to.
 
rinnie said:
Where is it taught that if you reject Christ in the Trinity the God of Abraham is a false god.
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It really is amazingly frustrating and tiring that we can go round and round, you can have it explained to you countless times, and you still come back with the same false premise.
 
Not so! There is a big difference between people and ideology. Salvation is for people, not an ideology.
 
Do you not understand that the Jews are the chosen People? Do you not understand God never leaves his People.

It is written in God gave them a spriit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear down to this very day.
Let their eyes darkened so that they cannot see and bend their backs forever.

Paul states for some unremained mystery some Jews should remain unable to recognize the Messiah. Why?🤷

SO I ask have they stumbled so as to fail? By no means but through their trespass salvation has come to the gentiles so as to make Israel jealous.

It is said that in the end the eyes of the Jews will be opened once again. Read it in Rev. and they will see what they have done.

Thats pretty much when the world will end. When the Jews all come back to Christ.

But where were they ever punished for praying to a false god? Yes some Jews are blinded. Its a mystery of God.

IT is said Salvation comes from the Jews! Why? Because the mystery of this all can be that by God doing what he did, that by some Jews rejecting Christ is how the gentiles came to know Christ. And until he opens the eyes to all the Jews, we have time to all convert to Christ.

Read what St Paul says. For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

Then he says If the dough offered at first fruits is holy so it is the whole lump and if the root is holy so are the branches.

Again ST Paul says the Jews rejection brought the gentles reconciliation of the world, and that was the great blessing (us comming to Christ), How much more of a blessing will come about when they finally Accept him.

God is a mystery. How he teaches is a mystery. How he can become the truth even in a pack of lies is a mystery. Not How, but why.

Why we do not know. Why did he let Muhammad teach a false doctrine and claim it was in his name? We don’t know.

But as bad as the false doctrine is, the GOOD in it, the one good truth is GOD.

You guys are asking of the Church, the Pope and even I for goodness sakes a sinner to explain how God could let a false prophet teach a false gospel about the True God. I don’t know the mystery of God.

The same as I do not understand how some Jews we picked to have their eyes darkened, and yet other Jews who all prayed to the same God, See him and teach the New Gospel. Its a mystery of our faith.🤷
 
jam070406 said:
It really is amazingly frustrating and tiring that we can go round and round, you can have it explained to you countless times, and you still come back with the same false premise.
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Nothing I have taught you is false. It is the true teaching of the Church. The Church teaches the Muslim God is the true God the One God that we pray to.

I am sorry this is hard for you to accept, Because you are frustrated with a truth that is given and you cannot accept is not the fault of the Church or I or the Pope.
 
rinnie said:
Do you not understand that the Jews are the chosen People? Do you not understand God never leaves his People.

…mystery of our faith.🤷
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Who mentioned the Jews? Thought this was about the Muslims!!🙂
 
jam070406 said:
I didn’t say that. Rinnie did, take it up with her.
Denying a tenet of the Catholic Faith is not the same as worshipping a false God. It following ours own passions. It’s a total strawman to claim Protestants the deny the Eucharist worship a false god. There is usually an underlying factor such as pride or refusal to submit to the authority of the Church. The argument is really not good and it’s pointless to keep coming back to.
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No it is your teaching. You said if you deny Christ in the Trinity you cannot pray to the One true God. I said I do not agree with this, I said how can you deny Christ in the Eucharist then.

I asked you the difference and you cannot answer it. So you are saying I created a strawman. How.

What am I saying that is untrue. Answer the question then. What is the difference between denying Christ in the Trinity and denying him in the Eucharist?

As I said there is none. And it proves you can not have the full understanding OF God rather it be in the Eucharist, or in the Trinity, but still pray to the One true God.

You are who is denying this, not I.
 
rinnie said:
Nothing I have taught you is false. It is the true teaching of the Church. The Church teaches the Muslim God is the true God the One God that we pray to.

I am sorry this is hard for you to accept, Because you are frustrated with a truth that is given and you cannot accept is not the fault of the Church or I or the Pope.
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Of course God is the God of Muslims. Whether they choose to accept Him and worship in spirit and truth is a whole other matter. He is not the God of Islam.
 
rinnie said:
No it is your teaching. You said if you deny Christ in the Trinity you cannot pray to the One true God. I said I do not agree with this, I said how can you deny Christ in the Eucharist then.

I asked you the difference and you cannot answer it. So you are saying I created a strawman. How.

What am I saying that is untrue. Answer the question then. What is the difference between denying Christ in the Trinity and denying him in the Eucharist?

As I said there is none. And it proves you can not have the full understanding OF God rather it be in the Eucharist, or in the Trinity, but still pray to the One true God.

You are who is denying this, not I.
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I answered. Your analogy is horrible. You’ll have to do much better. Keep trying.
 
rinnie said:
No it is your teaching. You said if you deny Christ in the Trinity you cannot pray to the One true God. I said I do not agree with this, I said how can you deny Christ in the Eucharist then.

I asked you the difference and you cannot answer it. So you are saying I created a strawman. How.

What am I saying that is untrue. Answer the question then. What is the difference between denying Christ in the Trinity and denying him in the Eucharist?

As I said there is none. And it proves you can not have the full understanding OF God rather it be in the Eucharist, or in the Trinity, but still pray to the One true God.

You are who is denying this, not I.
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There is a world of difference between denial and invincible ignorance! If you contend that some people, of whatever religion, simply have never heard of Jesus Christ and adore the God of the OT, then that is one thing.

However, Jesus came from the Jews and I think most of THEM have heard of Him and rejected Him. It certainly seems so, according to the Passion of Our Blessed Lord.

The Muslims, otoh, were not around for another 700 years AFTER the time of Our Lord and because of the fear of death imposed on them if they even ask a question about their ‘faith’ are most probably invincibly ignorant. This is the only way we can, in charity, believe what our CCC tells us infallibly. It is the way I have come to peace with it.🙂
 
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