Church teachings around sexuality 'irrelevant to 75%'

[saveusfromhell]

by the way here is a group for irish catholics that a priest has started, he think he is originally from poland.
forums.catholic-questions.org/group.php?groupid=1469

 

[chaunceygardner]

True, that and the ‘lurve culture’ or sex for all after the introduction of contraception in the '60’s.

I seriously doubt that most of those who have become part-time or nominal Catholics have done so because of pornography or popular culture. I think we use that reasoning because it is such a big and easy target. The surveys that I have seen seem to show that the main reasons people give for not going to Mass or fully participating in their parish life have nothing to do with sex or culture. Some were turned off by the people or the atmosphere at the parish they belonged to, or feel more welcome at churches of other faiths. If we set aside those who have stopped participating due to disagreements with Church teachings, there is still a large number who are unhappy with the Church, their parish, or the people in it, for non-doctrinal reasons. One can see that on some of the forums here, as well as in the answers to surveys.

That is what I think we should focus on, what their issues are and how we can address them so that these people will come back. It may be that they just need to talk to the right person who will make them feel welcome and part of the parish family again. For some, it may be letting them know that their failures and faults do not prevent them from receiving God’s love (I have seen many posts on this site where people feel unworthy or afraid of coming to Church, attending Mass, talking to a priest, or even seeking reconciliation). Before trying to bring in new sheep from another fold, we should be working at bringing back the sheep from our own flock who are wandering the hillsides with no direction.

 

[saveusfromhell]

I seriously doubt that most of those who have become part-time or nominal Catholics have done so because of pornography or popular culture. I think we use that reasoning because it is such a big and easy target. The surveys that I have seen seem to show that the main reasons people give for not going to Mass or fully participating in their parish life have nothing to do with sex or culture. Some were turned off by the people or the atmosphere at the parish they belonged to, or feel more welcome at churches of other faiths. If we set aside those who have stopped participating due to disagreements with Church teachings, there is still a large number who are unhappy with the Church, their parish, or the people in it, for non-doctrinal reasons. One can see that on some of the forums here, as well as in the answers to surveys.

That is what I think we should focus on, what their issues are and how we can address them so that these people will come back. It may be that they just need to talk to the right person who will make them feel welcome and part of the parish family again. For some, it may be letting them know that their failures and faults do not prevent them from receiving God’s love (I have seen many posts on this site where people feel unworthy or afraid of coming to Church, attending Mass, talking to a priest, or even seeking reconciliation). Before trying to bring in new sheep from another fold, we should be working at bringing back the sheep from our own flock who are wandering the hillsides with no direction.

when you say, faults, do you mean accepting people who persist in their sins and saying it’s okay you don’t need to try and reform. we accept you? to recieve the sacraments people have to accept the church is teachings

what their issues are and how we can address them so that these people will come back

the church can not change it’s core teachings to accomadate people, that is solar scripture, the reason we have 40000 forms of christanity.
Jesus welcomed sinners but asked them not to sin again.
by the way porn is a major contributor. anyone who thinks not has had their eyes shut over the last number of years.

 

[Stumblesalot]

Those doing the survey may have had an agenda, but they only commissioned the survey; the survey was prepared and done by what appears to be a reputable market research company in Ireland. The group that commissioned the survey may have focused on the results that supported their position, but should one condemn it all before having actually studied it?

And the reported results seem to be quite similar to results from other surveys done in other countries. Ireland is not unique, although they may have better reasons than most for not trusting the hierarchy of their church.

Sorry, perhaps I should have clarified that the agenda against the Catholic Church was global (last time I checked Satan can perform such tasks).

 

[sw85]

chaunceygardner;9174083:

Rather than finding fault with the survey or claiming the moral high ground, wouldn’t it be of more value to ask WHY so many people have those opinions? What are the causes, and is it a trend? And most important, what can be done about it? Should the Church be happy to be losing so many baptized, life long Catholics?

Why should the church care or take their opinions on board? The rulings/discplines/teachings of the church are decided by the ‘hierarchy’, who themselves were chosen by the Holy Spirit.

I think their decisions will be a lot more in line with what God wants for his church, than a group of cafeteria catholics.

Because disobedience to the Church’s magisterium, especially when it manifests in sinful behaviors, is a sin, and that means these people are on the road to Hell. That sounds like a good reason for the Vatican to care. That doesn’t mean it should change its teachings or anything (such is impossible) but it does mean it needs to aggressively advertise what is at stake here, which is nothing less than the loss of souls.

Folks, study after study after study reveals that the state of the laity is bad. They are ignorant at best, maliciously mortally sinful at worst. Surely some of these studies are poorly done, but every single one of them?

Things are not well. Catechesis is terrible, the laity are functionally apostasizing, many priests are renegades, many bishops don’t seem to care or even be aware of what’s going on. Holy mother Church is bleeding.

 

[pepipop]

I seriously doubt that most of those who have become part-time or nominal Catholics have done so because of pornography or popular culture. I think we use that reasoning because it is such a big and easy target. The surveys that I have seen seem to show that the main reasons people give for not going to Mass or fully participating in their parish life have nothing to do with sex or culture. Some were turned off by the people or the atmosphere at the parish they belonged to, or feel more welcome at churches of other faiths. If we set aside those who have stopped participating due to disagreements with Church teachings, there is still a large number who are unhappy with the Church, their parish, or the people in it, for non-doctrinal reasons. One can see that on some of the forums here, as well as in the answers to surveys.

That is what I think we should focus on, what their issues are and how we can address them so that these people will come back. It may be that they just need to talk to the right person who will make them feel welcome and part of the parish family again. For some, it may be letting them know that their failures and faults do not prevent them from receiving God’s love (I have seen many posts on this site where people feel unworthy or afraid of coming to Church, attending Mass, talking to a priest, or even seeking reconciliation). Before trying to bring in new sheep from another fold, we should be working at bringing back the sheep from our own flock who are wandering the hillsides with no direction.

I think that the promiscuous nature of society, since the '60’s, has delluded the faithful from any religious denomiation,which has been fuelled by the worldwide secular media. I agree, totally with the rest of your post.

 

[Stumblesalot]

Rather than finding fault with the survey or claiming the moral high ground, wouldn’t it be of more value to ask WHY so many people have those opinions? What are the causes, and is it a trend? And most important, what can be done about it? Should the Church be happy to be losing so many baptized, life long Catholics?

Those doing the survey may have had an agenda, but they only commissioned the survey; the survey was prepared and done by what appears to be a reputable market research company in Ireland. The group that commissioned the survey may have focused on the results that supported their position, but should one condemn it all before having actually studied it?

And the reported results seem to be quite similar to results from other surveys done in other countries. Ireland is not unique, although they may have better reasons than most for not trusting the hierarchy of their church.

Sorry, perhaps I should have clarified that the agenda against the Catholic Church was global (last time I checked Satan can perform such tasks).

 

[chaunceygardner]

So when people say let’s start again maybe it’s because some feel that it’s easier to start small everyone same hymn sheet and go out from there, rather than just a case of wanting to abandon people to their destiny.
most of my own family neighbours friends don’t believe to various degrees. I often hand out green scapulars and pray for them. I don’t know what else to do. my arguments seem to have swayed none:shrug:

Arguments usually don’t work, but examples do. We too often try to convince people with words and arguments rather than through our own example. Ask yourself: Am I visibly Catholic? Do I talk and act like a Christian person should? It seems like too often we tell people to do what we say and to act like Mother Teresa or some saint, while they see around them many closer examples of Catholics and other Christians who have no clue about, or interest in, following Jesus and who often openly scorn the Ten Commandments. If we don’t counteract that impression through our own lives, how will we convince anyone of our sincerity?

 

[saveusfromhell]

Arguments usually don’t work, but examples do. We too often try to convince people with words and arguments rather than through our own example. Ask yourself: Am I visibly Catholic? Do I talk and act like a Christian person should? It seems like too often we tell people to do what we say and to act like Mother Teresa or some saint, while they see around them many closer examples of Catholics and other Christians who have no clue about, or interest in, following Jesus and who often openly scorn the Ten Commandments. If we don’t counteract that impression through our own lives, how will we convince anyone of our sincerity?

argument may have been the wrong word, but this

Mother Teresa or some saint,

always bother me it generally implies shut up, you are either a holy holy, or a hypocrite, of course I try and show by example. it does not always work in fact frequently I fail. but it does not mean I should accept alternative teachings than the ones laid out by the church.
over the last while i have taken to keeping my own counsel rarely leaving the house other than mass work and daily duties. this is my way of leading by example

 

[Robert_Bay]

Opinion by a group against following the Magistarium

 

[chaunceygardner]

argument may have been the wrong word, but this always bother me it generally implies shut up, you are either a holy holy, or a hypocrite, of course I try and show by example. it does not always work in fact frequently I fail. but it does not mean I should accept alternative teachings than the ones laid out by the church.
over the last while i have taken to keeping my own counsel rarely leaving the house other than mass work and daily duties. this is my way of leading by example

Of course we all fail. That’s why we have the ability to be forgiven. If a problem with teachings keeps some people away from the Church, that is their decision. But we ourselves should not be an impediment to people coming into, or coming back to, the Church. My concern is that there are many people who have no real issue with teachings or doctrines but have been “turned off” by some other aspect of the Church, often something that has happened to them personally.

You can certainly choose what works best for you in leading by example, but I wonder if “rarely leaving the house” or “keeping your own counsel” is truly the best way? We can show others what it means to be Christian in many other ways than by proselytizing. Using Mother Teresa again as an example, that is exactly what she did. It did not matter to her the religion of the person she was helping, or what they believed or didn’t believe. They were another human being, they were Christ in the gutter, and she responded accordingly. I think the Gospel really calls us to be light to others, not to place our light under a bushel basket. How and where we do this can vary, but seems to me to be an imperative that we should not ignore.

When Jesus told the woman caught in adultery not to sin anymore, he did not berate her or tell her that she was a really bad sinner. He forgave her and gave her another chance to change her life. Which is what we should do for any and all who we encounter. Treat everyone, and I mean everyone, with respect and kindness, that is the Gospel. It is very difficult and we WILL fail at it more than once, but it is God’s commandment.

 

[saveusfromhell]

You can certainly choose what works best for you in leading by example, but I wonder if “rarely leaving the house” or “keeping your own counsel” is truly the best way

as you say it is for me to choose what works for me, getting in to my whole life story is not something i feel the need to do in this thread.
as for the rest of your post i agree with you
God bless.

 

[chaunceygardner]

I think that the promiscuous nature of society, since the '60’s, has delluded the faithful from any religious denomiation,which has been fuelled by the worldwide secular media. I agree, totally with the rest of your post.

You are likely right to a point, but I would change the word “faithful” to “not so faithful”. To imply that a faithful Catholic can be easily swayed or deluded by secular society is saying that the power of God is insufficient to overcome the attractions of popular culture. Our faith should be strong enough to overcome it, and if it is not always so and we fail now and then, we have the promise of God’s love and forgiveness.

Recall the parable of the sowing of the seed. If our seeds of faith are well grounded and nourished by our relationship with God, nothing should be able to overcome them.

 

[chaunceygardner]

as you say it is for me to choose what works for me, getting in to my whole life story is not something i feel the need to do in this thread.
as for the rest of your post i agree with you
God bless.

I apologize if I overstepped in my comments; I did not mean to judge how you live your life.

God’s Peace and Blessings to you as well.

 

[onthisrock]

I love the way that the mainstream media seems to believe the Catholic Church will have to change fundamental teachings if enough of those who term themselves Catholic suddenly they decide they don’t like something!!

Right!? NO ONE asked me, and I’m Irish Catholic along with my friends in NFP classes…So, all of the Traditional Catholics on this site, and all of my friends are somehow included in these “studies” about the Church and Her teachings on sexuality? NFP is liberation for woman! I am so thankful for Theology of the Body, and other Catholic teachings…Are they polling these woman at the DNC headquarters? seems like that must be what it is…soooo dumb!!

 

[Tenofovir]

I’d venture to say that “Love Thy Enemy” is even less relevant. I mean **WHO REALLY LOVES THEIR ENEMY AS THEMSELVES? ** It’s a virtuous teaching but how many people genuinely apply it or at least try to apply it?

Folks, today we petition the Vatican to change that teaching. We hate our enemies and kill them from now on. Right?

Or what about Love God with all your heart? How many people prefer to sleep in and not go to Mass? How many people are hung over and so can’t go. How many people choose NOT GOD all the time? I know I do often enough. I know, we scrap this teaching too. After all it just confuses people and increase anxiety levels. From now on, let’s put God somewhere between doing your annual taxes and the superbowl/formula1 GP.

This is no different. Even if 99.999% of the population hates and finds the Church’s teachings impossible or difficult to follow or even irrelevant, these teachings cannot be changed. If God exists, and Catholicism means something, it is us who must conform to to God and not vice versa. Anything else is just asinine childishness.

 

[Hopemercy]

May I add another perspective from deep within Ireland?

ACP is a dissident group. ( by the way, has Flannery actually gone to a monastery? Would love to know which one…)

If you read their latest rant…

breakingnews.ie/archives/2012/0412/ireland/priests-treated-like-imbeciles-by-vatican-visitation-547238.html

I am by the way a religious historian resident here over ten years and I meet many folk in many walks of life.

They set themselves up as the abuse scandals were breaking… Like some kind of vulture? Just when the Church here was reeling, in they came. If you look at their web site, you will see that they loudly oppose by distorting, anything and everything the Vatican says. They hate what they call “clericalism” and to them the priesthood is simply another job. Never see them in clerical collars…

Now they are claiming they are being persecuted, that the inquisition is back, that they are like Jesus…

They are behind the so-called Roman catholic Women Priest movement, gay rights and so on… For more background, see the Clerical Whispers site for the last week. They have been very loud there.

They seem to be trying to destroy the Church here?

Their buzzword is that the Church “must” " read the signs of the times…"

This is the Church who has fed, clothed, sheltered and honoured them all these years.

Now they speak of “warning” the Vatican. Arrogance and hubris.

If they really feel that they can no longer obey Church teachings, then they should apply for laicisation. The Canon law provision is there. The way they are behaving is appalling.

And no I would not trust any survey they commissioned! Not a chance; but sadly people are swayed by these things. These are clever men who really are opening the gates of hell here.

If they used their skills and energies to heal and help?

Incidentally, I talk with many folk of these things as they know my interest and great concern. Not met anyone who thinks anything but scorn of ACP. But they also think all the Bishops should be sacked.

When you ask, why then are the rural Churches crowded for Mass - and they are - they tell you … we are trusting in the Lord to intervene… in the promises of Medjugorje.,… House of Prayer Achill Island… It breaks the heart, it really does.

 

[Slaney]

irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0412/breaking31.html

*The Church’s teachings on sexuality have “no relevance” to 75 per cent of Irish Catholics or their families, a new survey has found *

A new survey, what a joke, incase they don’y know, I live in Ireland, and I never heard my door knocking unless I don’t count

It has also established that 87 per cent of Irish Catholics believe priests should be allowed marry, 77 per cent believe there should be women priests while 72 per cent believe older, married, men should be allowed become priests.

Their problem is, IGNORANCE of what they either signed up for or what they were born into, Irish Catholics believe Rome is over there and we are over here, so we don’t need to listen to them, just like so many parts of the world that want to dissect the Body of Christ…

 

[Slaney]

May I add another perspective from deep within Ireland?

ACP is a dissident group. ( by the way, has Flannery actually gone to a monastery? Would love to know which one…)

Don’t know, doesn’t matter, just recently heard this on the news…

They set themselves up as the abuse scandals were breaking… Like some kind of vulture? Just when the Church here was reeling, in they came. If you look at their web site, you will see that they loudly oppose by distorting, anything and everything the Vatican says. They hate what they call “clericalism” and to them the priesthood is simply another job.

Ye, to many it’s a job, don’t worry the Master said it will b e ok…

Never see them in clerical collars…

Yes see that more and more among even the faithful Priests, probably afraid of getting beaten up and murdered…

now they are claiming they are being persecuted, that the inquisition is back, that they are like Jesus…

They can claim all they like…

They are behind the so-called Roman catholic Women Priest movement, gay rights and so on… For more background, see the Clerical Whispers site for the last week. They have been very loud there.

They seem to be trying to destroy the Church here?

Their buzzword is that the Church “must” " read the signs of the times…"

This is the Church who has fed, clothed, sheltered and honoured them all these years.

Now they speak of “warning” the Vatican. Arrogance and hubris.

Warning the Vatican ? " Holy Smoke " I’m sure Pope Benedict will have trouble sleeping tonight…

If they really feel that they can no longer obey Church teachings, then they should apply for laicisation. The Canon law provision is there. The way they are behaving is appalling.

Yes, move over, move on…

And no I would not trust any survey they commissioned! Not a chance; but sadly people are swayed by these things. These are clever men who really are opening the gates of hell here.

True, a lot of the Irish media is corrupt to the core, satan goes for the Jewel in the Crown, that once was Ireland, but sadly no more, but maybe one day it’s light will shine again :shamrock2:

Incidentally, I talk with many folk of these things as they know my interest and great concern. Not met anyone who thinks anything but scorn of ACP. But they also think all the Bishops should be sacked.

When you ask, why then are the rural Churches crowded for Mass - and they are - they tell you … we are trusting in the Lord to intervene… in the promises of Medjugorje.,… House of Prayer Achill Island… It breaks the heart, it really does.

You mentioned the unmentionable but, but anyway, they will be waiting along time for anything to happen, Rome will intervene, that is all we need to know, confidence In Jesus is all you need, I read the book, and in the end we win…

 

[Hopemercy]

Two opposing articles on Clerical Whispers today…

clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2012/04/why-pope-is-right-to-gag-fr-trendy.html

clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2012/04/liberal-catholics-expect-freedom-of.html