Cindy Sheehan

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Steve O'Brien:
On the reasons for caution in connection with the number of bodies in Iraqi mass graves, please see this article:

lewrockwell.com/wanniski/wanniski11.html

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I don’t know, we keep finding the mass graves. Could Rockwell be in denial here?

Iraq Excavators Identify Graves

Since January, two mass graves were discovered in Kirkuk, two were found in Sulaymaniyah, and one in Halabja — all containing Kurdish victims, Amin said.

Investigators also traveled to Nasiriyah, 200 miles southeast of Baghdad, this week to inspect a site that locals had begun digging up after a farmer plowing in his field discovered about 20 bodies. It was not known where the bodies came from.

“We’re calling on our citizens. No one should open the mass graves. They should inform the authorities and the human rights people. It needs to be done properly, scientifically, respectfully,” Amin said.

It was difficult to estimate how many people were buried in the different sites, since some graves had several layers that have yet to be uncovered, Amin said, recalling one particular location in Hatra in northern Iraq.

“In Hatra, we went looking for one and we found 11. It’s difficult to say. It could be more, it could be less. The number of missing is calculated to be about 1 million in Iraq,” he said.

Some 2,000 bodies were found recently in the area of Samawah in northern Iraq. The entire site is believed to hold members of Massoud Barzani’s clan. Some 8,000 relatives of Barzani, who heads the Kurdish Democratic Party, were taken from a camp in the northern city of Irbil in the summer of 1983 and never heard from again.

Amin said hundreds of thousands of Kurds in the north and Shiites in the south were killed and remained missing after rising up against Saddam’s regime during the first Gulf War.

“We are in the beginning of this search for truth. More than half the Iraqi population has a loved one who is missing, disappeared,” he said.

The Iraqi Human Rights Ministry so far has files on 150,000 people missing from the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s, the first and second Gulf Wars.

Files sent from the International Committee of the Red Cross on missing persons altogether weighed about 130 pounds, Amin said.

He said the ministry hoped to open three centers in the north, south and center of the country to create rehabilitation programs for the families of victims.

“We have had unfortunately this terrible legacy of wars and families left behind in pain,” Amin said. “Saddam has caused pain and suffering to these people and its neighbors because of his aggressive policies. The healing process is going to take time, the tender wounds are still fresh.”
 
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gilliam:
I don’t know, we keep finding the mass graves. Could Rockwell be in denial here?
I just heard Donald Rumsfeld on Charlie Rose’s program. The secretary of defense reduced the number of bodies in Iraqi mass graves from 500,000 to “tens of thousands.”

I hope everyone has seen the video of Donald Rumsfeld as he shook hands with Saddam Hussein when the latter was the U.S. government’s buddy.

Again, the number of people killed under Saddam Hussein’s régime had nothing to do with the real motives for the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
I already posted a news article showing that they are finding mass graves all over Iraq. I am not sure what you may have heard on a talk show. Personally, I don’t know the exact number (and I bet the Sec. doesn’t either). We won’t know for many years is my guess.

I think the current estimate of those who Saddam was responsible for killing (if you count the war with Iran) is approximately 1 million.

There is no secret reason why we went into Iraq. The US Congress voted on a bill to liberate Iraq that is in the public domain (and they are the only ones who can authorize war, not you or I) and that resolution ennumerates why we went into Iraq.

Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq
 
Steve O'Brien:
I hope everyone has seen the video of Donald Rumsfeld as he shook hands with Saddam Hussein when the latter was the U.S. government’s buddy.

Keep and spread the Faith.
Obviously you have never heard of Diplomacy. :rotfl: There are more than a few photo’s of Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson,etc. shaking hands with a foe. If that’s your proof, do us all a favor…DON"T apply for a job as a Diplomate. You would have to shake a few hands you don’t much care for either.😃
 
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gnjsdad:
When was the last time an “unhinged” woman became the object of such vitriol? :ehh:
When the media decided that the news would be 24/7 Cindy Sheehan. Many don’t agree with her. Others who have lost their sons & daughters are out there who don’t agree with her and who don’t want Cindy Sheehan speaking for them. Problem is that I haven’t seen any Media chasing them down to hear what they have to say, have you?
 
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Lucania:
When the media decided that the news would be 24/7 Cindy Sheehan. Many don’t agree with her. Others who have lost their sons & daughters are out there who don’t agree with her and who don’t want Cindy Sheehan speaking for them. Problem is that I haven’t seen any Media chasing them down to hear what they have to say, have you?
No, I havent, and that’s unfortunate because we need to hear their stories too.

Whatever her faults, Mrs Sheehan was smart enough to find the hot and bored reporters who have to spend a month in Crawford Texas. And Bush not meeting with her IMO is not a smart move.

The venom being spewed her way by war apologists is a sure sign that she is making an impact. If she were as “unhinged” and “unstable” as they claim, would Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc. spend hours trying to discredit her? I don’t think so.
 
In post #232, I should have written “North Korea” instead of “Korea.”

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
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gnjsdad:
No, I havent, and that’s unfortunate because we need to hear their stories too.

Whatever her faults, Mrs Sheehan was smart enough to find the hot and bored reporters who have to spend a month in Crawford Texas. And Bush not meeting with her IMO is not a smart move.

The venom being spewed her way by war apologists is a sure sign that she is making an impact. If she were as “unhinged” and “unstable” as they claim, would Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, etc. spend hours trying to discredit her? I don’t think so.
Sheese! The womans not cooking on all 4 burners. The pundit’s will use any excuse for a story…the left and the right seem to have way too much time on their hands ! :rolleyes:
 
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gnjsdad:
How do you know?
Having buried more than my fair share of family and friends from wars…and **wayyyyyyy ** more than Ms. Sheehan, I know an unhindged person when I hear one. She is a fruitcake and I and others DO not care to have her speak as though it were for us and our loved ones.

I’d be glad to hug the fruitcake, wipe her tears (though I have not seen her shed any-she’s too busy swearing like a sailor). I would also like to give her the old movie routine of a swift smack to get her attention focused back on reality. :rolleyes:
 
Steve O'Brien:
The new catechism’s recognition of the fact that a morally justifiable decision in favor of a war must emanate from a legitimate government does *not * cancel a Catholic’s obligation to oppose an unjust war.
This, of course, implies that you have proven that the war is unjust.
You haven’t. People may have the opinion that it is, just like people have the opinion that it is not.

I would agree that if I found the war to be unjust, I have a moral obligation to oppose it. You, nor anyone else, has proven the war to be unjust.
Steve O'Brien:
The *possibility * that *about five pounds * of Iraqi yellowcake uranium (*not * a nuclear bomb) may have been found in *Rotterdam * does not render the U.S. invasion of Iraq morally justified, especially since the real motives for the war had nothing to do with the notorious (but never produced) weapons of mass destruction.
Uh, five pounds? Try 500 tons. Here is one link I found with this…I remember seeing other news outlets with this story at the time.

cshink.com/not_exactly.htm
Steve O'Brien:
Korea has nuclear weapons and is unfriendly toward the U.S. government, but our government has not ordered an invasion of that country, nor has it even declared that Korea poses a threat on a par with the threat allegedly posed by the régime of Saddam Hussein.
Different set of circumstances. For one, Kim Jung Il does not believe that he will get 72 virgins if he dies in a war with the US.
Second, he already has nukes, whereas Saddam would have liked to have had them. Given that, I’m not sure there is good chance of success if we went to war.
Steve O'Brien:
Furthermore, the accusation of 500,000 corpses in Iraqi mass graves, like all atrocity reports, must be evaluated with caution before a decision is made to rely on the figure. There are reasons to wonder about this total. Of course, even a substantially reduced figure for unjust executions would represent a horrific reality. Still, the number of executions that occurred under Saddam Hussein (who, let’s remember, used to be the U.S. government’s buddy) also had nothing to do with the actual reasons for the U.S. invasion of Iraq.
I think we still had a moral obligation to the Iraqi people in addition to the stated reasons why we went to war.
Steve O'Brien:
In 1994, according to the BBC, an estimated 800,000 Rwandans were murdered in genocidal massacres, but our government failed to send troops to Rwanda to save those people from death.
We should have intervened in Rwanda. A sad statement that we did not.

Steve, I appreciate your position. I think you are a reasonable person. I think we will end up agreeing to disagree. Of the information I have seen, the reasons to go to war beyond the official line from the government were numerous.
  • Evidence of efforts to obtain WMDs (beyond US intel)
  • Risk of possibly still having WMDs from before
  • Numerous violations of UN resolutions
  • Numerous violations of the terms of surrender
  • Impeding efforts of the UN inspection team
  • History of use of WMDs
  • links to known terrorists
  • Proven genocide (Kurds)
  • Rape rooms, torture of political opponents, etc.
You can provide evidence that our intel was bad…don’t disagree. But when you take all of these things together, I am comfortable with our decision to go to war.
 
Not to mention… Bush had to finish what Clinton started IMO. (1st Gulf War)
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shockerfan:
This, of course, implies that you have proven that the war is unjust.
You haven’t. People may have the opinion that it is, just like people have the opinion that it is not.

I would agree that if I found the war to be unjust, I have a moral obligation to oppose it. You, nor anyone else, has proven the war to be unjust.

Uh, five pounds? Try 500 tons. Here is one link I found with this…I remember seeing other news outlets with this story at the time.

cshink.com/not_exactly.htm

Different set of circumstances. For one, Kim Jung Il does not believe that he will get 72 virgins if he dies in a war with the US.
Second, he already has nukes, whereas Saddam would have liked to have had them. Given that, I’m not sure there is good chance of success if we went to war.

I think we still had a moral obligation to the Iraqi people in addition to the stated reasons why we went to war.

We should have intervened in Rwanda. A sad statement that we did not.

Steve, I appreciate your position. I think you are a reasonable person. I think we will end up agreeing to disagree. Of the information I have seen, the reasons to go to war beyond the official line from the government were numerous.
  • Evidence of efforts to obtain WMDs (beyond US intel)
  • Risk of possibly still having WMDs from before
  • Numerous violations of UN resolutions
  • Numerous violations of the terms of surrender
  • Impeding efforts of the UN inspection team
  • History of use of WMDs
  • links to known terrorists
  • Proven genocide (Kurds)
  • Rape rooms, torture of political opponents, etc.
You can provide evidence that our intel was bad…don’t disagree. But when you take all of these things together, I am comfortable with our decision to go to war.
 
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shockerfan:
Uh, five pounds? Try 500 tons. Here is one link I found with this…I remember seeing other news outlets with this story at the time.

cshink.com/not_exactly.htm
According to a June 21, 2003, BBC report, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) “has kept the radiological materials at the [Tuwaitha] site safely under UN seal for 12 years,” i.e., prior to the U.S. invasion of Iraq in March 2003:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3009082.stm

If the IAEA’s statement is accurate, then, from the perspective of U.S. security, it doesn’t matter how much uranium the Iraqi government was storing at Tuwaitha.

Again, the significant point is this: the actual motives for the U.S. invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with stored uranium. If our government were sincere about “weapons of mass destruction,” then U.S. troops would have invaded North Korea in February 2005, when its government declared itself a nuclear power. But the United States has not invaded North Korea. Ergo.

*Ergo * this, too: as a Catholic, I have to conclude that many Americans were misled into supporting a morally unjustifiable war. Further, I have to do everything in my power to see that my nephews aren’t sent to Iraq via enlistment or conscription to jeopardize their lives and the lives of Iraqis.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
:rolleyes:
Steve O'Brien:
According to a June 21, 2003, BBC report, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) “has kept the radiological materials at the [Tuwaitha] site safely under UN seal for 12 years,” i.e., prior to the U.S. invasion of Iraq in March 2003:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3009082.stm

If the IAEA’s statement is accurate, then, from the perspective of U.S. security, it doesn’t matter how much uranium the Iraqi government was storing at Tuwaitha.

Again, the significant point is this: the actual motives for the U.S. invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with stored uranium. If our government were sincere about “weapons of mass destruction,” then U.S. troops would have invaded North Korea in February 2005, when its government declared itself a nuclear power. But the United States has not invaded North Korea. Ergo.

*Ergo *this, too: as a Catholic, I have to conclude that many Americans were misled into supporting a morally unjustifiable war. Further, I have to do everything in my power to see that my nephews aren’t sent to Iraq via enlistment or conscription to jeopardize their lives and the lives of Iraqis.

Keep and spread the Faith.
 
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Jeffrey:
Not to mention… Bush had to finish what Clinton started IMO. (1st Gulf War)
Say what? The first invasion of Iraq was under the command of Mr. Bush’s father, George HW Bush, not Mr. Clinton. You don’t remember 1990, 90% presidential approval ratings, who is going to beat this guy George Bush, and then Mr. Clinton’s retinue coming up with “It’s the economy, stupid”?

I’m not saying whether Mr. Clinton helped the situation or not, but he surely didn’t start it.
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Jeffrey:
What she said about the war is false. Unfortunately more and more Americans are believing lies like she is.
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Jeffrey:
She is dishonoring her sons memory period. Wether you think its rude or not.
As for Mrs. Sheehan, Jeffrey, it seems a little odd that you are an authority on how she should honor her son’s memory. That takes some chutzpah. Assail her views as a citizen, if you disagree. Her political views aren’t what is holy about her. Please have some compassion, though, and write as you would if you knew her and she were present to hear you. Keep your opinions to yourself about her decisions on how to be a grieving mother, as I would hope you do if she were someone you actually knew.
 
Nothing odd about it… she is dishonoring what her son did by undermining the soldier’s morale. Period. **Her family has even said so. **And nope… I will not keep my opinion to myself about it. Ppl like her… and the groups she supports are trying to ruin this country.
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BLB_Oregon:
As for Mrs. Sheehan, Jeffrey, it seems a little odd that you are an authority on how she should honor her son’s memory. That takes some chutzpah. Assail her views as a citizen, if you disagree. Her political views aren’t what is holy about her. Please have some compassion, though, and write as you would if you knew her and she were present to hear you. Keep your opinions to yourself about her decisions on how to be a grieving mother, as I would hope you do if she were someone you actually knew.
 
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BLB_Oregon:
As for Mrs. Sheehan, Jeffrey, it seems a little odd that you are an authority on how she should honor her son’s memory. That takes some chutzpah. Assail her views as a citizen, if you disagree. Her political views aren’t what is holy about her. Please have some compassion, though, and write as you would if you knew her and she were present to hear you. Keep your opinions to yourself about her decisions on how to be a grieving mother, as I would hope you do if she were someone you actually knew.
Well BLB…The woman is a disgrace. And as one who has buried more than my share of family and friends from war…I am NOT going to coddle her. She is a nitwit! She did not lose him last week…it’s been a year and she gets nuttier as time goes by. Never mind she is disgracing her son and **Our fallen family ** members and friends. DON"T EVEN try the poor Cindy routine on me. :mad:

I’ll be glad to offer her a box of kleenex and a good swift kick!
 
Steve O'Brien:
I just heard Donald Rumsfeld on Charlie Rose’s program. The secretary of defense reduced the number of bodies in Iraqi mass graves from 500,000 to “tens of thousands.”

I hope everyone has seen the video of Donald Rumsfeld as he shook hands with Saddam Hussein when the latter was the U.S. government’s buddy.

Again, the number of people killed under Saddam Hussein’s régime had nothing to do with the real motives for the U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Keep and spread the Faith.
Only tens of thousands." I gues that makes it Ok Then…
 
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