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ParkerD
Guest
Rocket Man,
OK. I would agree with your statement here. I think it has a great message. Thanks.
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OK. I would agree with your statement here. I think it has a great message. Thanks.
S
SeattleCatholic
Guest
Sorry I am coming into this discussion kind of late…but all of the different threads on the Mormon understanding of God lead me to ask…
If God the Father was man and lived on a planet, does that mean that He has a creator god too? Either way this question is answered, I’m sure I’ll have some follow-up questions.
Thanks!
M
Marie5890
Guest
Yes, God the Father had a God the Father (a God Grandfather to us in a way, but one that is not worshipped by people here on this planet) and so on…going back infinitely. The same would be true about Heavenly Mother etc.
Mormon dogma does view it in a very family sense.
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ParkerD
Guest
Hi, SeattleCatholic,
I hope you are doing well. I remember your interest quite a while back about opposition in all things, and so forth.
Your question doesn’t really have a definitive answer in Mormon teachings other than what I would call “speculation” which may or may not be correct. Heavenly Father is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, so when He lived on an earth as a perfect man (which would match the statement by Joseph Smith that Christ did what His Father had done before Him on an earth), then it must have been in another universe and the idea of “multiverses” that is sometimes discussed in current science, would seem applicable. It would have been within a different dimension of time and space than our dimensions.
I honestly don’t know why Joseph Smith brought up that subject in the King Follett Discourse. What I think he was emphasizing was that humankind have had a prior existence that included being intelligences prior to being spirits. This becomes important if one ever tries to figure out why God would “create” people who would be so horribly cruel as to do some of the things that have been done within the history of this earth. Knowing that He didn’t “create” them out of nothing makes a great deal more sense to me. The idea that He organized them into spirits from an already existing individuality, and that those spirits (including us) could then make choices and progress or rebel, makes sense.
S
spockrates
Guest
Then prepare away!
Yes, it is often my experience to remember a passage of the Bible that is applicable to the question I’m currently asking. Remembering the words, and perhaps the book of the Bible comes easily. Remembering the exact chapter and verse often alludes me, for I have spent much time reading Scripture, but little time memorizing what I often remember!
Agreed! I am actually familiar with all of these passages and have at times remembered them during conversations with others.
Yes, that is my hope.
S
spockrates
Guest
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
(Matthew 13)
I should thank you for looking out for my spiritual well being! I’m often concerned that I will become deceived. But I’m not sure I understand the nature of the danger you mention. I do not think I am deceived by riches; at least, not at the moment. I’m content to have enough to pay the bills and care for my family, and would rather stay employed in a job I love than to make more doing work I dread.
It must be, then, that you are concerned that the cares of this world will keep me from the truth. Please explain what cares, exactly, are likely to keep me from my desire to know truth, and the one who is the Truth.
S
spockrates
Guest
May God the Father give all the best to you, too! And once again, thank you for answering my questions.
I’ve read the passage you suggested, and find that it is very near to my desire, which is to receive the wisdom of God. And I’m reminded of the wisdom about Wisdom in Proverbs:
13Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
14For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
(Proverbs 3)
I sometimes joke that I pine for wisdom almost as much as I do for my wife!
But joking aside, I would very much enjoy hearing your thoughts about the passage you brought to my attention:
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(1 Corinthians 2)
It seems to me that Paul is saying wisdom cannot be known apart from revelation. In other words, using reason, apart from revelation, is not a reliable way of receiving the wisdom only God can reveal. Is this the truth you see in the passage as well?
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ParkerD
Guest
Spockrates,
Good day to you again! Your responses show so much deep thinking and understanding, that they are delightful. Thanks!
I think basically you answered this question with your next response about 1 Corinthians 2. One of the ways the “care of this world” becomes a factor in “choking” the growth of a seed when we’re talking about spiritual growth, is the way the world commonly goes about seeking knowledge or “hidden wisdom” and does it by a kind of one-up-man-ship approach. People can be very convincing in their methods, but to be convinced by proofs and arguments such as are used in debates, is to use the approach that has been adopted by the world. It is to care about what the world cares about.
When we care about what God cares about, we would go through the very steps you have recognized are needful, and we would be seeking for the “hidden wisdom” that can only come through God’s ways, that are higher than man’s ways. We would seek to have good ground for the development of the good seed of the gospel, and seek the Holy Spirit to guide our search without the world’s way of doing things getting in our way and basically stopping our progress. (One can’t have it both ways.)
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ParkerD
Guest
Spockrates,May God the Father give all the best to you, too! And once again, thank you for answering my questions.
I’ve read the passage you suggested, and find that it is very near to my desire, which is to receive the wisdom of God. And I’m reminded of the wisdom about Wisdom in Proverbs:
13Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.
14For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
(Proverbs 3)
I sometimes joke that I pine for wisdom almost as much as I do for my wife!
But joking aside, I would very much enjoy hearing your thoughts about the passage you brought to my attention:
4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
(1 Corinthians 2)
It seems to me that Paul is saying wisdom cannot be known apart from revelation. In other words, using reason, apart from revelation, is not a reliable way of receiving the wisdom only God can reveal. Is this the truth you see in the passage as well?
I think you have been precisely correct with what you have written here. It reminds me of the passage in Hebrews 11 about Abraham:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
That passage seems to say that Abraham was willing to find the “better country” that he knew God is preparing and has prepared for those who are willing to build a foundation of faith. Faith requires real trust in God and His promises, which end up being both spiritual and temporal, and bless us in this life as well as in the world to come.
I think you are on that path. I think also that as Abraham did, you ought to bring your family with you and be their loving guide to help them along that same path.
R
Rocket_Man
Guest
The only common thread in these examples isn’t the manner which we can hear or the emotions we may feel the Spirit of Truth, as sometimes the Spirit speaks with thunder and lightning, but rather the ministry of Holy Spirit always uplifting and revealing Jesus Christ as Savior.
S
SeattleCatholic
Guest
Thank you ParkerD,
I guess what I don’t understand is that, if God has a higher creator god, why wouldn’t we want to worship that god instead? Ultimately, there has to be an infinite and eternal god. It doesn’t make sense to have a bunch of “resurrected” gods created by other gods infinitely.
If he doesn’t have a creator god, why would he ever have been a human living on an earth?
Thanks again!
S
SeattleCatholic
Guest
Thanks Marie5890!
I asked this of ParkerD too, but would love your take on it. Wouldn’t there ultimately have to be one eternal and infinite god to have started the chain of these gods? I don’t see how you can have created god after created god without an uncreated god to create. Does that make sense? And if this is the case, why wouldn’t we want to worship that ultimate creator god, instead of the created Mormon god?
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ParkerD
Guest
SeattleCatholic,
I guess we might as well get into areas of what you might call science fiction, since you have asked about this. Science says this universe is what, 5 billion years old? That is what their aging methods determine. So in the kind of theology that can be inferred from those few remarks by Joseph Smith, and adding in string theory and multi-verses (i.e. more than one universe which is sometimes discussed in string theory), and keeping in mind black holes which science doesn’t know much about, you can form a picture in your mind of string universes and the idea that God the Father, the Supreme Ruler of this universe, has formed this universe with His omnipotence and omniscience and supreme love for intelligences and spirits, and did so from outside of this Universe.
Joseph Smith said there never was a time going backward in eternity when there was not God, and referred to a ring on our finger and said if there was a beginning, there would logically be an end, but since eternity is one eternal round with no beginning and no end, that intelligences and spirits are progressing within a never-ending process, and some gain exaltation to become omniscient and omnipotent like Christ. So under those conditions, which we don’t understand given the dimensions God has placed us in here on this earth and in this universe, there was no beginning to all this. Also, our only concern and worship would logically be to worship God the Father who organized this Universe, and His Son who makes it possible for us to be Redeemed and cleansed from our sins–our mistakes as we grow in knowledge by experience.
Rightly, we should focus all our faith and all our devotion on Them, and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us and to sanctify us just as Christ taught us. That’s why I shy away from this kind of discussion. God has a plan and gave us what we need to know to return to Him with a fullness of joy. We sometimes want to get in over our heads with speculation, and I don’t think that leads to faith or to wisdom or to knowledge. But science can keep trying to figure out the Universe, while we gain the spiritual strength and spiritual understanding that allows each of us to progress by keeping ourselves spiritually balanced and nourished.
M
Marie5890
Guest
I think you need to understand that for most Christians, they don’t see God in a anthropomorphic view.
For Mormons, God the Father is viewed that way. It’s what makes them far more non-traditional.
There are a few things that are similar between traditional Christianity and Mormonism, but there is a limit to those similarities.
A person really cant put Mormonism into traditional terms, and Mormons cant put traditional Christianity in their terms.
It’s like comparing the Chinese language with the English language. They are both languages for sure, but very very different.
Its a whole different mind set, a different prism.
Mormonism attempts to define God. Traditional Christianity says God is undefinable.
Make sense?
V
vickimonica
Guest
I was a mormon (I’m ashamed to say) for 22 years, and yes – We WERE taught that Catholics worshiped statues!!! I don’t know what ward you went to, but I’ve belonged to at least 3 in 22 years. ALL 3 OF THEM TAUGHT THAT CATHOLICS WORSHIPED STATUES…You mean that you now have Parkers opinion on file now and now claim that all of mormonism makes this claim that parker wrote? I think not. Parker has his own opinions but he does not represent all of mormonism.
For many people outside the catholic church, when they see catholics kneeling at the feet of statues of catholic saints, they come to the conclusion that they are worshipping the idol. What conclusioin would you like for them to draw when they know little about the catholic faith. But the idol worshipper accusation is protestant.
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ParkerD
Guest
Vicki Monica,
I’ve been a Mormon for 54 years (happily so), and have never been taught that “Catholics worship statues”–not once. So I guess since I lived in at least 12 different wards besides my mission, I have more experience than you do, but perhaps you lived in a place where some people thought that.
My statement on this thread was my personal opinion, based on having experienced some of the Latin culture who seemed to show more reverence to pictures on their walls than seemed to be proper, but that was my opinion. I didn’t mean any of them “worship” statues.
Z
zaffiroborant
Guest
You said
The implication is the Catholic church makes “images or replicas or depictions” with the intent for some followers to worship them. Poorly worded sentence (maybe) or general attitude towards Catholicism by LDS (I think so).
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ParkerD
Guest
Zaffiroborant,
No–I didn’t write that the Catholic church has the intent for some followers to worship them. I wrote that the images or replicas or depictions “become the object of worship for some of its adherents.” That decision of making the item an object of worship is made by the person, not by the church, of course.
On the other hand, if the “church” knows that this happens or can happen, then I would think the “church” would have a reason to consider not placing so much emphasis and visibility on those kinds of items–but if that’s just me looking at how worship of God needs to come from the heart and be directed toward God with no “stand-in” replica, then that’s my view and I take responsibility for that view.
So, thanks for bringing this up so I could clarify what I meant. Have a good day.
S
spockrates
Guest
I’m delighted to hear you find them delightful!
But I must confess that the words are not my own. I’m sure someone has poured them into my ears as though they were water pouring from a jug. And I’m embarrassed to admit that I cannot remember who my benefactor is. Perhaps it is the Holy Spirit (though unlikely, for I’m not worthy of His attention). I suppose it was one of His spokesmen who gave me such refreshing words to share with you. Probably someone much like yourself.
Yes, I’ve had my share of word battles, and became quite skilled at wielding the Word of God like a weapon of war. I suppose I’ve won more battles than I lost, but having won the arguments, I felt I had lost the truth. So I took my cues from Jesus (and my other mentor Socrates) and began searching for truth rather than defending what I thought was it. Like Socrates, I began asking questions, of anyone who claimed to know the truth in hopes of gaining some wisdom I lacked. Such as brought me here, and brought me to ask questions of you.
Yes, that is my hope.
S
spockrates
Guest
Yes, Parker, I’m looking forward to what God has in store. I know where I’d like to be (at Jesus’ feet listening to Him speak) but I’m not quite sure if getting there is probable and what path to take. I suppose that, like Socrates, I’m the object of ridicule of some. Having my head lifted to heaven and what will come, I tend to not watch where I’m going, and foolishly stumble and fall.Spockrates,
I think you have been precisely correct with what you have written here. It reminds me of the passage in Hebrews 11 about Abraham:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
That passage seems to say that Abraham was willing to find the “better country” that he knew God is preparing and has prepared for those who are willing to build a foundation of faith. Faith requires real trust in God and His promises, which end up being both spiritual and temporal, and bless us in this life as well as in the world to come.
I think you are on that path. I think also that as Abraham did, you ought to bring your family with you and be their loving guide to help them along that same path.
“You’ll never get there,” both Catholics and Protestants tell me (ironically, I suppose, for they tend not to agree on so much but are unanimous in condemning me for my indecision)! And I suppose they are both right in shaking their heads and rolling their eyes and jeering at me, for I was once on the road to the highest heaven (or so Evangelicals told me) until I started asking questions of Catholics. In answering my questions, Catholics caused me to see that perhaps some important beliefs I used to believe might not be true. My discussions with Catholics have lead me off the road to heaven, Evangelicals tell me. And if I don’t turn back soon, I’m damned for sure.
Catholics, on the other hand, tell me I’m better off for having left the road of lies, but still they chastise me for not committing myself to what they say is the truth. But even though I’m sure that I’m not sure what the truth is any more, I’m still not sure that that of which they are so sure is the truth I’m looking for.
So I’ve stumbled off the path of Evangelicalism and walked right into a big oak tree and fallen on my kiester! And that’s where you find me, Parker, parked right here at a fork in the road of my life rubbing my sore nose and arse and wondering which way to go. To the left is the road Evangelicals warn me to get back on. To the right is the Catholic road, which they tell me is the oldest and most trusted way to God. I’ve meet a lot of folks passing me going down either way. Then there is your road, down the middle of the two, and I’m awfully glad you’ve stopped on your journey a moment to tell me where you believe it will lead you and why you are so confident of the way you’ve chosen. For I’m afraid that I’m not confident which way to go at all.
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