Clarification on Mormon Belief

[spockrates]

Spockrates,
Wow–a literary gem here as well as a fascinating story. Thanks for sharing these insights about yourself, and for the prior post that was again spot on and insightful.

Thanks again for the encouragement, Parker! Yes, that’s one trait of both Jesus and Socrates I try to imitate–the use of analogy. Telling what something is like is often much easier than telling what something is, i think.

And sorry for not responding sooner; obligations to work and family kept me focused elsewhere.

I think you’re perceptive when you wrote of “down the middle of the two”, because as a person receives the companionship of the Holy Ghost, they feel the kind of “freedom” Evangelicals probably feel–a kind of euphoria–but yet they also feel the need to recognize the importance of progressing through following a path that leads “strait and narrow” somewhere–toward change, toward real service to others that some would call "works’, and toward covenant making through the ordinances of the gospel and the personal promises with the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Yes, I think that’s how it was for me, anyway. The difference between Catholics and Evangelicals, regarding good works, is a difference of understanding their cause and effect. Catholics tell me good works are a cause of salvation. Evangelicals tell me they are not a cause, but only an effect.

What do you believe?

 

[spockrates]

…

But that is a human way of expressing it. As you follow the Holy Spirit’s promptings, you will receive a far deeper insight into those kinds of impacts in your life, than I can express in an example or ordinary language. I hope that you will consider the Abraham example I noted from Hebrews 11, and realize that he went on a journey more than once as a “stranger in a strange land” as he was led by God, and took Sarah along with her support and help. The blessings that opened up to them as they did that were limitless when you think about it.

Well, I’d been around the block so many times, I was making the curbs round! I thought I knew just how the Holy Spirit speaks, but now I’m not so sure. You see, I used to rely on three things to show me the truth.

1. The words of the Bible

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

(2 Timothy 3:16-17)

2. The revelation from Holy Spirit

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

(John 16:13)

3. The reason God gave me

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

(Isaiah 1:18)

But after speaking with Catholics awhile, I’m not so sure anymore that these three are enough. That’s how I got off the path and had the mishap with the tree. You see, Catholics showed me how the Bible might not say what Protestants say it says. So now I see what they see, and what I used to see. I’ve prayed for wisdom to know which view is true, but the Holy Spirit sees fit to give me no wisdom of my own (I suppose I’m like Socrates and unlike Jesus that way)! The Spirit only prompts me to ask others to share the wisdom they have and that I lack.

The Lord bless you in your quest, kind friend. It means you will need to do what the “pricking” in your heart says you should do, and not wait until everything is perfect in your life–won’t happen. We have to “go to the edge of the light”, and show our faith by acting on the promptings we have received. So I ask questions of anyone who claims to know the truth.

Thank you for your kind words! At the moment my heart tells me to keep asking questions of you. If your heart is telling you the same, I’d be grateful if you will keep answering my questions.

 

[Jay53]

Hi, Jay53,
Yes, indeed, John 14:9 occurs before the resurrection of Christ, but since Christ really was “God with us” and was perfect, it was an appropriate teaching. I think it is likely that Christ looks physically like His Father, as well, so that would make that verse make even more sense when viewed from a human perspective.

That being said, there would be a difference in that in His condition before His resurrection, Christ would have been visibly radiant and loving, but not have had the glorified countenance of His perfect resurrected body, so you do make a valid point from that standpoint. But John also says in John 1:14 "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) " which is significant in understanding how the apostles perceived Christ to be–a Person of glory, even as He walked among them.

You are still reading things into the passages that you want to be there. If you are not operating from the premise that God has a body of flesh and bones those passages are not interpreted that way at all. John 1:14 does not suggest anything about a physical body - it simply is evidence of the glory of God who is Jesus; again affirmation of the Trinity. Jesus and God the Father are One. I guess I just am trying to get you to see it from my perspective, if that is possible.

And there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus looks physically like the Father. ???

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks again for the encouragement, Parker! Yes, that’s one trait of both Jesus and Socrates I try to imitate–the use of analogy. Telling what something is like is often much easier than telling what something is, i think.

And sorry for not responding sooner; obligations to work and family kept me focused elsewhere.

Yes, I think that’s how it was for me, anyway. The difference between Catholics and Evangelicals, regarding good works, is a difference of understanding their cause and effect. Catholics tell me good works are a cause of salvation. Evangelicals tell me they are not a cause, but only an effect.

What do you believe?

Hi, again Spockrates,
I guess I’m going to first say in answer to your question that I keep hoping you will go back to the first point I made when we discussed “hearing”, and that at some early point you will feel the desire and the prompting to “jump ship” from what I have to offer and really test the water of faith and learning by the Spirit, through the means that is the established means, since words on a computer cannot carry the conviction and the spiritual connection that being “in person” with someone brings to the spiritual learning process.

“Faith” and “works” are intricately connected. “Works” seems to have three connotations in the New Testament that need to be differentiated:

1–The “works of the law” meaning the law of Moses including sacrifices and the outward sign of circumcision, were fulfilled in Christ, and Paul conveyed that repeatedly in his teachings, yet many of those he taught seemed unwilling to accept the change. I think that unwillingness was a key to understanding later things that happened.

2–The kinds of “works” that James wrote about in James 1 and 2 are significantly important, and relate to 1 Corinthians 13, Revelation 2:19 and 26, and Ephesians 4:11-16 (among many others). They become both a kind of “thermometer” as to how much a person is really being changed by the gospel, and how much love they really have inside of their soul; and they become the very instrument whereby God brings us toward “justification” by Christ and “sanctification” by the Holy Spirit. They also collectively build a Zion people.

3–“Works” would also imply the ordinances and covenants involved in the gospel as taught by Christ and the apostles. “Baptism” is an act of faith but is also an outward “work”, and there are other ordinances as well as covenant making that become part of a person’s inner core self and strengthen their conviction and resolve to be “thoroughly furnished” as a vessel who will seek the Lord’s will in all things they do in life.

 

[spockrates]

Hi, again Spockrates,
I guess I’m going to first say in answer to your question that I keep hoping you will go back to the first point I made when we discussed “hearing”, and that at some early point you will feel the desire and the prompting to “jump ship” from what I have to offer and really test the water of faith and learning by the Spirit, through the means that is the established means, since words on a computer cannot carry the conviction and the spiritual connection that being “in person” with someone brings to the spiritual learning process. …

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Thank you, Parker, for pointing that out. It seems I’m worse off than I first thought. Before I thought I was blind for not being able to see which fork in the road was right for me. Now, I hear, I must be deaf, too! For I don’t recall you telling me how to hear what the Spirit has to say to me. Please explain how to listen to him once more, or at least point out the post number so I can reconsider what you had to say.

 

[spockrates]

… “Faith” and “works” are intricately connected. “Works” seems to have three connotations in the New Testament that need to be differentiated:

1–The “works of the law” meaning the law of Moses including sacrifices and the outward sign of circumcision, were fulfilled in Christ, and Paul conveyed that repeatedly in his teachings, yet many of those he taught seemed unwilling to accept the change. I think that unwillingness was a key to understanding later things that happened.

2–The kinds of “works” that James wrote about in James 1 and 2 are significantly important, and relate to 1 Corinthians 13, Revelation 2:19 and 26, and Ephesians 4:11-16 (among many others). They become both a kind of “thermometer” as to how much a person is really being changed by the gospel, and how much love they really have inside of their soul; and they become the very instrument whereby God brings us toward “justification” by Christ and “sanctification” by the Holy Spirit. They also collectively build a Zion people.

3–“Works” would also imply the ordinances and covenants involved in the gospel as taught by Christ and the apostles. “Baptism” is an act of faith but is also an outward “work”, and there are other ordinances as well as covenant making that become part of a person’s inner core self and strengthen their conviction and resolve to be “thoroughly furnished” as a vessel who will seek the Lord’s will in all things they do in life.

Yes, I think I know what you are saying. My problem (and it’s a problem with me, not you!) is that I don’t know how to know what you say is true. So I think you are right in suggesting that I cure my spiritual deafness as the first step to hearing and accepting the truth. I hope this is a miracle with which you can help me out.

 

[ParkerD]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:RU52UTXRARYG2M:http://www.wny-ultra.org/mendon/05MP-fork.JPG

Thank you, Parker, for pointing that out. It seems I’m worse off than I first thought. Before I thought I was blind for not being able to see which fork in the road was right for me. Now, I hear, I must be deaf, too! For I don’t recall you telling me how to hear what the Spirit has to say to me. Please explain how to listen to him once more, or at least point out the post number so I can reconsider what you had to say.

Hi, again, Spockrates,
Thanks for responding. We had agreed about the need for being willing as a first step to accept the teacher’s way of teaching, since the Father, the Savior, and the Holy Spirit are the master Teachers. Each of us can read, think, pray, fast, think some more, pray some more, read some more–but until we figure out the teacher’s way of teaching, we will probably struggle to learn what it is He would really want us to learn, even though we will learn many insights that may be preparatory.

After the preparation time, we will want to involve more of our senses, because there are qualities in the human voice and in eye to eye contact that communicate to our soul more readily than just by reading and thinking. We can have the opportunity to “feel” the truths and begin a path wherein we recognize when our heart is “in tune” with the Holy Spirit. Truth and conviction are seen in the eyes and heard in the voice of one who becomes a messenger, because as they have the Holy Spirit in their teaching, one who is humble has the experience of their own spirit “hearing” and “feeling” that what they are hearing is true. If I could be where you live, I would love to be such a messenger–oh how much I would love that–but it’s not my role. As we discussed, all I can be is a “preparer of the way”. (I have been about as specific as I think I can be on this website, on this particular point.)

 

[vickimonica]

I’ve been a Mormon for 60 years, and I’ve never been taught that either. Come to think of it, I don’t think that Catholic belief has been addressed in any fashion in any meeting I’ve ever had.

right Diane… It’s probably never been “addressed”, however if you ask a “primary teacher” if Catholics worship statues they will give you quite an earful. (The earful being yes-they do). I was a mormon – I sat in these classes first hand. I KNOW WHAT I HEARD…

 

[spockrates]

Hi, again, Spockrates,
Thanks for responding. We had agreed about the need for being willing as a first step to accept the teacher’s way of teaching, since the Father, the Savior, and the Holy Spirit are the master Teachers. Each of us can read, think, pray, fast, think some more, pray some more, read some more–but until we figure out the teacher’s way of teaching, we will probably struggle to learn what it is He would really want us to learn, even though we will learn many insights that may be preparatory.

After the preparation time, we will want to involve more of our senses, because there are qualities in the human voice and in eye to eye contact that communicate to our soul more readily than just by reading and thinking. We can have the opportunity to “feel” the truths and begin a path wherein we recognize when our heart is “in tune” with the Holy Spirit. Truth and conviction are seen in the eyes and heard in the voice of one who becomes a messenger, because as they have the Holy Spirit in their teaching, one who is humble has the experience of their own spirit “hearing” and “feeling” that what they are hearing is true. If I could be where you live, I would love to be such a messenger–oh how much I would love that–but it’s not my role. As we discussed, all I can be is a “preparer of the way”. (I have been about as specific as I think I can be on this website, on this particular point.)

I have to agree with you, Parker that having a face-to-face conversation is superior to conversing through the written word! One has to be careful to not misunderstand what is written. That’s one reason why I try to ask questions of thoughtful people like yourself to be sure I understand what you believe and why you believe it.

What you appear to be saying to me is that there is only one way to evangelize, and that is in person. If I had to guess (please correct me if I’m wrong), I suppose you might say that there is only one way to receive the truth, and that is in person. But (and I’m saying *but *not to argue with you, rather to ask you why you believe this and better understand you so that I might believe as you do) do you think there are times when God the Spirit will convince someone of the truth through means other than face-to-face contact?

This example comes to mind (again, I’m not saying this to debate, but to ask your opinion), and I feel led to ask you about Paul’s letters written to the Corinthian Church. In his first epistle written to them, he tries to convince them of a truth:

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

(1 Corinthians 5)

The truth was that they were proud and condoning sin. His method of convincing them of this truth, it seems to me, was not speaking to them in person, but instead speaking to them with written words, and with the assistance gained through much prayer. And when I recall 2 Corinthians, I see that Paul’s method of using the written word and prayer was indeed effective in convincing the Corinthians of the truth of what he was unable to say in person, because distance separated him from the ones he loved.

So (in a spirit of wonder, but not of confrontation) I’d like to ask you this: Do you think it is possible (though not preferable) to try to convince someone of the truth trough written words, as Paul did? If you think it is possible, do you think God approves of such a method when, as in the case of Paul, speaking in person is not an option? I’d like to say, once again, that I agree that speaking in person is more effective than writing a letter or posting a reply on a forum, such as this. I think, however, that a message forum (though inferior to face-to-face communication) is actually superior to a written letter, for it is more like an actual conversation than composing a letter.

Hence, I’m wondering if, even though you are not with me in person, you might be with me in spirit? I’m wondering if you perhaps are willing, though prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit, to try to help me see the truth, as Paul helped the Corinthians to know what was true?

For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit… .

(1 Corinthians 5:3)

If you are not willing, that’s OK. No pressure; just asking!

 

[ParkerD]

I have to agree with you, Parker that having a face-to-face conversation is superior to conversing through the written word! One has to be careful to not misunderstand what is written. That’s one reason why I try to ask questions of thoughtful people like yourself to be sure I understand what you believe and why you believe it.

What you appear to be saying to me is that there is only one way to evangelize, and that is in person. If I had to guess (please correct me if I’m wrong), I suppose you might say that there is only one way to receive the truth, and that is in person. But (and I’m saying *but *not to argue with you, rather to ask you why you believe this and better understand you so that I might believe as you do) do you think there are times when God the Spirit will convince someone of the truth through means other than face-to-face contact?

This example comes to mind (again, I’m not saying this to debate, but to ask your opinion), and I feel led to ask you about Paul’s letters written to the Corinthian Church. In his first epistle written to them, he tries to convince them of a truth:

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.

2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

(1 Corinthians 5)

The truth was that they were proud and condoning sin. His method of convincing them of this truth, it seems to me, was not speaking to them in person, but instead speaking to them with written words, and with the assistance gained through much prayer. And when I recall 2 Corinthians, I see that Paul’s method of using the written word and prayer was indeed effective in convincing the Corinthians of the truth of what he was unable to say in person, because distance separated him from the ones he loved.

So (in a spirit of wonder, but not of confrontation) I’d like to ask you this: Do you think it is possible (though not preferable) to try to convince someone of the truth trough written words, as Paul did? If you think it is possible, do you think God approves of such a method when, as in the case of Paul, speaking in person is not an option? I’d like to say, once again, that I agree that speaking in person is more effective than writing a letter or posting a reply on a forum, such as this. I think, however, that a message forum (though inferior to face-to-face communication) is actually superior to a written letter, for it is more like an actual conversation than composing a letter.

Hence, I’m wondering if, even though you are not with me in person, you might be with me in spirit? I’m wondering if you perhaps are willing, though prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit, to try to help me see the truth, as Paul helped the Corinthians to know what was true?

For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit… .

(1 Corinthians 5:3)

If you are not willing, that’s OK. No pressure; just asking!

Good day to you, Spockrates,
I am certainly willing to seek the Holy Spirit’s guidance (which is what I’ve tried to do) in answering your questions and thus be “with you in spirit”. I will continue to do that.

Paul was writing in 1 Corinthians especially to the “brethren” who were responsible to lead and guide all the members of the church in Corinth. He gave them many instructions, including the strong one you noted from chapter 5, which was basically saying the person who had that abhorrent practice should be removed from membership in the church.

He had a strong message about unity, about seeking the Spirit and not being caught up in worldly wisdom, about seeking the love of Christ and spiritual gifts. The entire epistle is marvelous guidance to the early church members and especially the leaders, and now to us. Paul communicates love, patience, and urgency all at the same time. I love 1 Corinthians 16:13-14, “Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong. Let all your things be done with charity.” To me he is saying, “there is much to be done–be up and doing, and do it with love and in the strength of the Spirit.”

Have a wonderful day.

 

[spockrates]

Good day to you, Spockrates,
I am certainly willing to seek the Holy Spirit’s guidance (which is what I’ve tried to do) in answering your questions and thus be “with you in spirit”. I will continue to do that.

Paul was writing in 1 Corinthians especially to the “brethren” who were responsible to lead and guide all the members of the church in Corinth. He gave them many instructions, including the strong one you noted from chapter 5, which was basically saying the person who had that abhorrent practice should be removed from membership in the church.

He had a strong message about unity, about seeking the Spirit and not being caught up in worldly wisdom, about seeking the love of Christ and spiritual gifts. The entire epistle is marvelous guidance to the early church members and especially the leaders, and now to us. Paul communicates love, patience, and urgency all at the same time. I love 1 Corinthians 16:13-14, “Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong. Let all your things be done with charity.” To me he is saying, “there is much to be done–be up and doing, and do it with love and in the strength of the Spirit.”

Have a wonderful day.

Yes, I think you are right on!



And I suppose, then, that you agree that truth can be communicated through written words (though, of course, face-to-face communication is the preferred method).

 

[spockrates]

And I will do my best to make sure I do not misunderstand what you say.

 

[spockrates]

What I’m trying to discern, Parker my new friend, is how truth is discerned! And I feel led to mention these words of Jesus Christ, and then hear what you have to say about them:

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

(John 8:31-32)

I suppose the question I feel led to ask is this: Jesus tells me that the truth shall set me free, but free to say, think, or do what?

 

[ParkerD]

What I’m trying to discern, Parker my new friend, is how truth is discerned! And I feel led to mention these words of Jesus Christ, and then hear what you have to say about them:

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

(John 8:31-32)

I suppose the question I feel led to ask is this: Jesus tells me that the truth shall set me free, but free to say, think, or do what?

Spockrates,
That is such a key chapter in the book of John. Note verses 16 and 17 about two witnesses, and then verses 34 and 36. “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”

Clearly, to be free is to be free from being the “servant of sin” by following Christ, who always and without fail sought to do His Father’s will. Also, by repenting of sins committed, and in verse 47 by “He that is of God heareth God’s words” meaning they understand them with their heart and seek to do the will of God. Look back at verse 12 and we see that Christ provides the “light of life” that will lead us to all truth, and by having all truth, we are free to act without hesitation in knowing and doing the Father’s will. There is complete freedom when we know we are doing the Father’s will–no wondering hesitation, no self-centered behavior, because to follow Christ is to be other-centered and to be at complete peace with oneself. (There is also the implication that the Jews had traditions as a stumbling block to their accepting Christ’s message–but that is another topic for another post.)

Thanks for citing John 8–precious chapter!

 

[dianaiad]

right Diane… It’s probably never been “addressed”, however if you ask a “primary teacher” if Catholics worship statues they will give you quite an earful. (The earful being yes-they do). I was a mormon – I sat in these classes first hand. I KNOW WHAT I HEARD…

I’m sorry you heard that.

(shrug)

Suffice it to say that I know the difference between what Catholics do in re. statues (the symbology of the images, and the level of respect for the people for whom those imagas stand) and worship…

And it was a Mormon who first made certain that I did understand the difference. I will repeat that Catholic doctrine has never been addressed in any church meeting I have ever attended.

 

[ParkerD]

What I’m trying to discern, Parker my new friend, is how truth is discerned! And I feel led to mention these words of Jesus Christ, and then hear what you have to say about them:

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

(John 8:31-32)

I suppose the question I feel led to ask is this: Jesus tells me that the truth shall set me free, but free to say, think, or do what?

Spockrates,
I had written a response in somewhat of a rush, and I wanted to add the following cross referencing scripture that provides an understanding of how the Savior brings liberty and freedom through being healed from the inside out, by forgiveness toward others, and by not reacting to the unkindnesses around us but learning to always act in a spirit of love and a knowledge of who we are.

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

To no longer have spiritual blindness is to be free indeed, and that comes as the Holy Spirit teaches us and brings us toward changing our lives and gaining the qualities that help us “continue in the Savior’s word” and become His disciples indeed. I hope each of us can do that in our lives, and help our families to do that.

 

[ParkerD]

What I’m trying to discern, Parker my new friend, is how truth is discerned! And I feel led to mention these words of Jesus Christ, and then hear what you have to say about them:

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

(John 8:31-32)

I suppose the question I feel led to ask is this: Jesus tells me that the truth shall set me free, but free to say, think, or do what?

Spockrates,
I’m thinking I’ll add another layer of meaning to this subject. As you think about your spirit, and that individual spirit’s desires as a child of God, then becoming no longer “in captivity” means to no longer be subject to the binding effects of the adversary who desires to bind a person if they allow themselves to be “bound”, or the binding effects of letting oneself yield to the weaknesses and inclinations of our physical body and its appetites and passions. Our spirit can have a spiritual connection with the Holy Spirit, and be brought toward what our spirit really wants us to become, day by day through the course of our lives. Therein is the freedom Christ offers.

 

[Jerusha]

Parker, more and more each day, you express standard Christian teachings.

 

[soren1]

I’m sorry you heard that.
And it was a Mormon who first made certain that I did understand the difference. I will repeat that Catholic doctrine has never been addressed in any church meeting I have ever attended.

Catholic Doctrine has been grossly misrepresented in official LDS doctrine, including General Conference addresses presented by Apostles. The most important recent example is the presentation given by Elder Jeffrey Holland at the October 2007 General Conference, The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent, in which he travestied Trinitarian doctrine in the following words:

*In the year A.D. 325 the Roman emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea to address—among other things—the growing issue of God’s alleged “trinity in unity.” What emerged from the heated contentions of churchmen, philosophers, and ecclesiastical dignitaries came to be known (after another 125 years and three more major councils) as the Nicene Creed, with later reformulations such as the Athanasian Creed. These various evolutions and iterations of creeds—and others to come over the centuries—declared the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be abstract, absolute, transcendent, immanent, consubstantial, coeternal, and unknowable, without body, parts, or passions and dwelling outside space and time. In such creeds all three members are separate persons, but they are a single being, the oft-noted “mystery of the trinity.” They are three distinct persons, yet not three Gods but one. All three persons are incomprehensible, yet it is one God who is incomprehensible.

We agree with our critics on at least that point—that such a formulation for divinity is truly incomprehensible.*

To first two words I underlined are objective errors. God is not abstract but supersubstantial. Abstraction is a derivative mode of being. In thinking about God, we do employ the mental faculties of abstract thought, but the persons are not abstract. Thomas Aquinas is particularly clear on this point, because the divine substance is “immaterial not by abstraction, but of itself.”

The second claim of “separate persons” is a heresy that was actually condemned by the councils to which Elder Holland attributes it. The amount of documentation that exists to disprove Elder Holland’s claim here is overwhelming. (Athansius himself identified this error as the Arian heresy.) The correct creedal account of the relations of the persons is “distinct but not separate.” Anyone who studies the Trinity seriously should know this, and should know that it is no small detail but a fundamental principle in Trinitarian theology. Elder Holland, as former Dean of Religious Studies and later President of BYU, cannot claim ignorance as an excuse.

The third word I underlined is orthodox in itself, but it becomes heretical in the way Elder Holland interprets it. He uses “incomprehensible” as if it means “unintelligible,” when in fact it means that God cannot be known by his creatures to the extent to which he knows himself, because his self-knowledge is as infinite as his substance. God can be seen by our minds, but he cannot be circumscribed by our minds. Correctly understood, divine incomprehensibility indicates infinite intelligibility. Yet Elder Holland hijacks this terms, takes it with an opposite meaning, and wields it as a verbal skewer to pillory an account of Conciliar teaching that would have been seen as heretical by the Council Fathers themselves. He then claims this as a point of “agreement.” (The rest of his presentation is no better, by the way.)

This speech is official, inspired LDS doctrine.

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates,
That is such a key chapter in the book of John. Note verses 16 and 17 about two witnesses, and then verses 34 and 36. “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”

Clearly, to be free is to be free from being the “servant of sin” by following Christ, who always and without fail sought to do His Father’s will. Also, by repenting of sins committed, and in verse 47 by “He that is of God heareth God’s words” meaning they understand them with their heart and seek to do the will of God. Look back at verse 12 and we see that Christ provides the “light of life” that will lead us to all truth, and by having all truth, we are free to act without hesitation in knowing and doing the Father’s will. There is complete freedom when we know we are doing the Father’s will–no wondering hesitation, no self-centered behavior, because to follow Christ is to be other-centered and to be at complete peace with oneself. (There is also the implication that the Jews had traditions as a stumbling block to their accepting Christ’s message–but that is another topic for another post.)

Thanks for citing John 8–precious chapter!

Yes, Parker, that is certainly my desire that Christ would set me free from the power of sin. It seems likely, I think, that there’s an added benefit to receiving such precious freedom. For when I’m set free *from * sin, I’d also be set free *to *obey. I suppose then that it’s really two freedoms for the price of one! Don’t you agree?