Cleavage

  • Thread starter Thread starter vsedriver
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
underacloud said:
And to help each other in doing so. Other posters are merely making the point that Christian women should be aware of the potential effect their choices in clothing may have on their fellow Christians. I’m not sure what is controversial in saying this.
Click to expand...
If one does not work with God’s Grace to transform from within – women can wear burkas – and it will make no difference. Temptation/lust is born from within – from the darkness in our own minds/hearts/souls – and this is what has to be cleansed.
 
Walking_Home said:
One who covers for/justifies their temptations/sins by blaming another – leads others to do the same. Draws them in – and they end up locked in temptation/sin.

Feels better and easier to blame – than to take full responsibility for the temptation/sin.
Click to expand...
Per the CCC: SCANDAL: An attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil

Per Fr Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary: Any action or its omission, not necessarily sinful in itself, that is likely to induce another to do something morally wrong. Direct scandal, also called diabolical, has the deliberate intention to induce another to sin. In indirect scandal a person does something that he or she forsees will at least likely lead another to commit sin, but this is rather tolerated than positively desired.
 
Lost_Sheep said:
40.png
Nacho45:
What is being said is she is causing another to sin, which is a sin, and should not be done.
Click to expand...
No one can cause another person to sin. A person sins of his/her own choosing.
Click to expand...
Yes – exactly.
 
Walking_Home said:
One who covers for/justifies their temptations/sins by blaming another – leads others to do the same. Draws them in – and they end up locked in temptation/sin.

Feels better and easier to blame – than to take full responsibility for the temptation/sin.
Click to expand...
What you are referring to is called pharisaical scandal (definition here: catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35557 ), which is more restrictive than “scandal” in itself.

In pharisaical scandal, there is no actual “leading” into sin going on, i.e. the person who is pharisaically scandalized merely uses an action which has either no effect or a good effect on him/her as a justification for sin.

But in what is generally understood by the name “scandal”, the action does in fact have a negative effect on the one scandalized, in such a way that he or she is closer to committing a sin than before due to the action which scandalizes.

Do you agree with all this?
 
Lost_Sheep said:
No one can cause another person to sin. A person sins of his/her own choosing.
Click to expand...
I would like to introduce to you Romans 14:13-23, 1 Corinthians 8:13, and 20:32. There are others, but this is sufficient.
 
It does one no favor – to justify one’s temptation/sin by blaming another. All it does – is close one in – envelope one in darkness of the mind/heart/soul – that one cannot reach the light.
 
Walking_Home said:
If one does not work with God’s Grace to transform from within – women can wear burkas – and it will make no difference. Temptation/lust is born from within – from the darkness in our own minds/hearts/souls – and this is what has to be cleansed.
Click to expand...
Sure. As I said, we help each other. Men work with God’s grace to transform themselves from within, and women help the men by not dressing in such a way as to be a source of temptation (and vice versa). Again, what is controversial in saying this?
 
Walking_Home said:
It does one no favor – to justify one’s temptation/sin by blaming another. All it does – is close one in – envelope one in darkness of the mind/heart/soul – that one cannot reach the light.
Click to expand...
But this isn’t what is being said and I suspect you well know this. Please resist the temptation to twist what people are saying out of the context in which they say things.
 
underacloud said:
Sure. As I said, we help each other. Men work with God’s grace to transform themselves from within, and women help the men by not dressing in such a way as to be a source of temptation (and vice versa). Again, what is controversial in saying this?
Click to expand...
There is no controversy is saying this. It seems as if its popular not to take personal responsibility for ones own actions yet blame others for doing that very thing.
 
Walking_Home said:
It does one no favor – to justify one’s temptation/sin by blaming another. All it does – is close one in – envelope one in darkness of the mind/heart/soul – that one cannot reach the light.
Click to expand...
If you want to do moral theology or ethical philosophy, you need to do them the way the Church does them - as a rigorous science with definitions and argumentation. Do you disagree with anything I said above? If not, then don’t be afraid to follow the logic where it goes. Christ is the Logos - the Word, the Reason - and reason will not lead us astray.

Here’s the post again for you to see:
AuditVocemMeam said:
What you are referring to is called pharisaical scandal (definition here: catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35557 ), which is more restrictive than “scandal” in itself.

In pharisaical scandal, there is no actual “leading” into sin going on, i.e. the person who is pharisaically scandalized merely uses an action which has either no effect or a good effect on him/her as a justification for sin.

But in what is generally understood by the name “scandal”, the action does in fact have a negative effect on the one scandalized, in such a way that he or she is closer to committing a sin than before due to the action which scandalizes.

Do you agree with all this?
Click to expand...
 
Like I said --one does not help oneself – by covering up/ justifying our temptations. Any thread–dealing with women and clothes that comes up – it’s the same thing. “Justifications” come from every direction. No – no – no – it can’t be me alone responsible for my temptation/lust --nope – its the temptresses. There I feel better.
 
Walking_Home said:
Like I said --one does not help oneself – by covering up/ justifying our temptations. Any thread–dealing with women and clothes that comes up – it’s the same thing. “Justifications” come from every direction. No – no – no – it can’t be me alone responsible for my temptation/lust --nope – its the temptresses. There I feel better.
Click to expand...
This is not addressing the issue. If you would like to concede the argument, I will accept - otherwise you need to discuss things according to the method of rational discourse, because repeated assertions with no support and no evidence are of no value. Do you agree or disagree with the post that I made? Here it is again:
AuditVocemMeam said:
What you are referring to is called pharisaical scandal (definition here: catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35557 ), which is more restrictive than “scandal” in itself.

In pharisaical scandal, there is no actual “leading” into sin going on, i.e. the person who is pharisaically scandalized merely uses an action which has either no effect or a good effect on him/her as a justification for sin.

But in what is generally understood by the name “scandal”, the action does in fact have a negative effect on the one scandalized, in such a way that he or she is closer to committing a sin than before due to the action which scandalizes.

Do you agree with all this?
Click to expand...
 
AuditVocemMeam said:
This is not addressing the issue. If you would like to concede the argument, I will accept - otherwise you need to discuss things according to the method of rational discourse, because repeated assertions with no support and no evidence are of no value. Do you agree or disagree with the post that I made? Here it is again:
Click to expand...
One can try to justify ones temptation/sin via any means – deflect attention away from oneself – but sin is a person choice. Each one of us has free will – how we use this free will is up to us. When one looks at another – one makes a choice – fill the mind with dark thoughts – or not. This is the freedom each and every one of us has. Pointing blame at someone else – is denying the freedom God gave us. To choose darkness or God’s light.
 
markomalley said:
Why should the dress code in a parish church be any different?
Click to expand...
It doesn’t sound like this dress code is posted at Lost_Sheep’s parish. Instead he took it upon himself to correct someone.

And even if it was, the dress code doesn’t say anything about cleavage. 🤷

If he had approached me, I would have told him to go fly a kite.
 
Walking_Home said:
One can try to justify ones temptation/sin via any means – deflect attention away from oneself – but sin is a person choice. Each one of us has free will – how we use this free will is up to us. When one looks at another – one makes a choice – fill the mind with dark thoughts – or not. This is the freedom each and every one of us has. Pointing blame at someone else – is denying the freedom God gave us. To choose darkness or God’s light.
Click to expand...
I am asking you a direct question and would appreciate it if you will answer. It is ironic that you speak of “deflecting attention” when you are deflecting attention from the legitimate question that I am asking you. Is my question difficult to answer? It is a mere “yes or no” and the content is taken straight from the Catechism and authentic Catholic sources.

Here is my post again:
AuditVocemMeam said:
What you are referring to is called pharisaical scandal (definition here: catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35557 ), which is more restrictive than “scandal” in itself.

In pharisaical scandal, there is no actual “leading” into sin going on, i.e. the person who is pharisaically scandalized merely uses an action which has either no effect or a good effect on him/her as a justification for sin.

But in what is generally understood by the name “scandal”, the action does in fact have a negative effect on the one scandalized, in such a way that he or she is closer to committing a sin than before due to the action which scandalizes.

Do you agree with all this?
Click to expand...
 
maryjk said:
It doesn’t sound like this dress code is posted at Lost_Sheep’s parish. Instead he took it upon himself to correct someone.

And even if it was, the dress code doesn’t say anything about cleavage. 🤷

If he had approached me, I would have told him to go fly a kite.
Click to expand...
Allow me to blow up a portion of the picture to help you see. I understand sometimes pictures aren’t quite good enough.



(Note: I’m relatively sure somebody will come back and say, “see, see…they only prohibit it if it shows cleavage AND the belly button!!!”)

I don’t understand why some people have something against modesty.

I guess from such attitudes, slutwalks are born.
 
AuditVocemMeam said:
I am asking you a direct question and would appreciate it if you will answer. It is ironic that you speak of “deflecting attention” when you are deflecting attention from the legitimate question that I am asking you. Is my question difficult to answer? It is a mere “yes or no” and the content is taken straight from the Catechism and authentic Catholic sources.

Here is my post again:
Click to expand...
Go ahead keep asking – won’t make a difference. We sin – because we allow our free will to make the choice to sin. There is a saying – misery loves company. It not enough that one makes the free will choice to sin – that one reaches out to place the blame on someone else.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top