Cleric - its ok to beat woman and force them to have sex

[Sister_Amy]

Er…okay. I was responding to post #37 in which you asked the following:

The problem with this sort of reasoning is that it assumes that the husband’s need for sex should invalidate the wife’s feelings, just because sex is legal within marriage and the husband wants it. Unfortunately for those who think this way, in the USA, “I don’t feel like it” is a valid reason for refusing sex. There are many cases in which rape is charged against a husband for forcing sex on his wife when she didn’t want it for whatever reason. So what is a couple in that situation to do? Go to counseling, surely. Maybe this will help them and they will discover why they are having intimacy problems. This will most certainly not happen if the husband is allowed to discard the wife’s feelings by brutalizing her, raping her when she does not want to have sex with him. In fact, logically, you would think that this would increase the problems between the couple, even if the wife does not consider it rape (it was until relatively recently not considered possible for a husband to rape his wife).

So while I understand that in your mind you are not in any way excusing rape, I do not see how this sort of thinking does not at least point in that direction. And “protecting him against adultery”? That is the responsibility of every man, regardless of how he and his wife get along. Certainly a couple can be physically intimate on a regular basis and still have the sort of emotional distance problems that can lead to one or both parties having affairs. Sex is not some magical glue that keeps a couple together regardless of how they feel about each other, and if it is they probably shouldn’t be married in the first place.

As I understand it, if a couple goes to marriage counseling as a last step before a divorce, the very first issue addressed is intimacy between them. And I have understood it to be a common complain among non-Muslim men who are displeased with their marriages that their wives are reluctant to be intimate with them.

So I think it is a very serious and important part of a marriage. If I were approaching my husband for intimacy, time after time, and being refused for no reason (like not “feeling like it” which is not a reason in my mind), I think I would be very hurt. Very hurt. I don’t think I could continue to stay married to that person, actually, to a man who refused to be intimate with me. Usually it doesn’t happen that way, though–usually it is the woman who “doesn’t feel like it.”

The problem then is if one person “doesn’t feel like it.” But in fact that’s pretty inconsiderate and selfish, I think, and exemplifies disregard for that person’s spouse. They do feel like it, so what are they supposed to do? Suffer, and suffer, and suffer? To what end? It does lead to adultery, it really does, and it leads to divorce.

The matter is not about rape or forcing women. The point is that the spouses should both be considerate of each other. If American society doesn’t like that idea, too bad. It has a future full of many more divorces, of more cheating husbands and wives, more tales of infidelity…

For my part, I would much rather indulge my husband when I “don’t feel like it” than force him into the arms of another woman.

 

[dzheremi]

The problem then is if one person “doesn’t feel like it.” But in fact that’s pretty inconsiderate and selfish, I think, and exemplifies disregard for that person’s spouse. They do feel like it, so what are they supposed to do? Suffer, and suffer, and suffer? To what end? It does lead to adultery, it really does, and it leads to divorce.

That is why they go to counseling in the first place, because there’s concievably a reason one or the other “doesn’t feel like it”, and they need to understand what it is if they are going to work on it and strengthen/save the marriage.

The matter is not about rape or forcing women. The point is that the spouses should both be considerate of each other.

Exactly…both should be considerate of each other, not the husband forcing himself on the wife if she doesn’t want to have sex with him when he wants to!

If American society doesn’t like that idea, too bad. It has a future full of many more divorces, of more cheating husbands and wives, more tales of infidelity…

Whatever. And the Muslim world has sanctioned rape and infidelity with its stupid laws it claims to have from God. This is just as much an abomination of God’s ideal relation as divorce!

For my part, I would much rather indulge my husband when I “don’t feel like it” than force him into the arms of another woman.

God forgive me, I do not mean to be crude, but I think it is easy to intellectually defend this stance, and would probably be less easy if you were the one with the husband who forces himself on you sexually AND take other women “in marriage”, in apparent accordance with Islamic law.

And again, you are assuming that giving your husband sex whenever he wants will keep him with you. That is incredibly naive. Intimacy problems may manifest themselves in a lack of physical love within a marriage, but they are always rooted in something emotional. If that weren’t the case, there would be no marriage counseling industry to begin with, because two people who are physically AND emotionally intimate don’t just stop being that way without some serious problem entering the hearts of one or the other.

 

[FranciscanGemma]

Hi DolphinLove…

I was just reading the same article posted in:

Cleric: Rape, beating OK for wives

Terrible, terrible stuff. Stories like these make me so mad…

Not only these clerics preach hate against the west, they also preach against their own women. Shame!

Best regards,
Pam
New York

And to think, GWB did a horrible thing when he invaded Iraq and Muslim women were liberated from this tyranny and oppression! Yes, i know, it is still going on, but in fewer numbers since Saddam and his misogynistic family are no longer in control!

 

[dzheremi]

What? So George W. Bush liberated Iraqi women from Muslim custom? I don’t think so. Iraq before the war was not really a great example of Islamic government, since the Baathist regime was religiously secular, politically socialist.

 

[Reuben_J]

In Islam men can have 4 wives but not the other way around.
You call that equal?

And for the life of me either I cannot see that as equal rights too.

 

[R_not]

What? So George W. Bush liberated Iraqi women from Muslim custom? I don’t think so. Iraq before the war was not really a great example of Islamic government, since the Baathist regime was religiously secular, politically socialist.

It should show us that socialist, secularists also murder on a grand scale - I usually bring up the communists as examples and include the socialists in that group. Well, thanks - you reminded me that Hussein was a secularist. But, he could certainly pull out the koran and play the part of a muslim when he wanted to!

 

[Reuben_J]

So I think it is a very serious and important part of a marriage. If I were approaching my husband for intimacy, time after time, and being refused for no reason (like not “feeling like it” which is not a reason in my mind), I think I would be very hurt. Very hurt. I don’t think I could continue to stay married to that person, actually, to a man who refused to be intimate with me. Usually it doesn’t happen that way, though–usually it is the woman who “doesn’t feel like it.”

The problem then is if one person “doesn’t feel like it.” But in fact that’s pretty inconsiderate and selfish, I think, and exemplifies disregard for that person’s spouse. They do feel like it, so what are they supposed to do? Suffer, and suffer, and suffer? To what end? It does lead to adultery, it really does, and it leads to divorce.

The matter is not about rape or forcing women. The point is that the spouses should both be considerate of each other. If American society doesn’t like that idea, too bad. It has a future full of many more divorces, of more cheating husbands and wives, more tales of infidelity…

For my part, I would much rather indulge my husband when I “don’t feel like it” than force him into the arms of another woman.

I hope I don’t miss too much on what’s going on in this thread. I thought the argument was about Islam having this clause where husbands are commanded to beat their wives if they are disobedient and that this clause is being used in the case of when a wife refusing sex with her husband. Quite plain that this amounts to rape and abuse and that being so, it is in conflict with Christian value.

Sexuality plays an important part in marriage. Christianity (and I think no doubt in Islam) has specific teaching about sexuality in marriage. Modern day psychology and approach has given appropriate attention to sexuality too. So it’s one aspect of marriage that can give problem to the couple concerned and it can be addressed respectively whether one is a Christian, Muslim or secular.

However it should never be a reason for adultery and divorce because these are wrong by themselves. Sensible marriage couples should try to address this problem; and adultery and divorce should never be the solution. Nor is beating I may say.

 

[R_not]

And for the life of me either I cannot see that as equal rights too.

They don’t even get a ‘man toy’ in their heaven. It is just an orgy for the muslim males with 72 virgins and all the little boys they want. Their wives get to watch them. I don’t know what the children get - I guess they get to watch their fathers and other grown male relatives.

I suppose they get to get some of the food and all the water and wine that they want. Of course, even the wine isn’t really wine like we know it. Tough luck - they don’t even get to get drunk.

 

[Reuben_J]

However it should never be a reason for adultery and divorce because these are wrong by themselves. Sensible marriage couples should try to address this problem; and adultery and divorce should never be the solution. Nor is beating I may say.

Oop … so beating is the solution in Islam?

 

[Reuben_J]

They don’t even get a ‘man toy’ in their heaven. It is just an orgy for the muslim males with 72 virgins and all the little boys they want. Their wives get to watch them. I don’t know what the children get - I guess they get to watch their fathers and other grown male relatives.

I suppose they get to get some of the food and all the water and wine that they want. Of course, even the wine isn’t really wine like we know it. Tough luck - they don’t even get to get drunk.

Yes, even in principle and spirituality obviously that’s not equal rights, the absurdity of it notwithstanding.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

In Islam men can have 4 wives but not the other way around.
You call that equal?

God created men & women differently . In Islam , men have rights over women & the vice versa but rights are not exactly ’ same’ in nature. In many cases , women have more rights. It’s a must for men to earn & spend for women . What women earn that’s absolutely belong to her only. So , his money is her money & not the vice versa.

Jesus (p) allowed polygamy for men in OT. Solomon (p) had 1 thousands wives including concubines. I never heard or read that Jesus (p) was cruel to women for not allowing them having many husbands at a time.

 

[R_not]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

God created men & women differently . In Islam , men have rights over women & the vice versa but rights are not exactly ’ same’ in nature. In many cases , women have more rights. It’s a must for men to earn & spend for women . What women earn that’s absolutely belong to her only. So , his money is her money & not the vice versa.

Jesus (p) allowed polygamy for men in OT. Solomon (p) had 1 thousands wives including concubines. I never heard or read that Jesus (p) was cruel to women for not allowing them having many husbands at a time.

Here are the rights of women in islam:

• to get beaten up
• to get stoned, or hanged for being raped when the rapist doesn’t bring an audience (4 others) with him to watch so they can testify against him
• in many cases in muslim countries - they don’t get to be educated.
• sold to men for marriages when they are children, especially if they have a bad dad who owes a lot of money - he can just sell one of his daughters to pay that debt off
• cliroral circumscion (it happens in all muslim countries - don’t tell us it is a ‘cultural thing’!
• no right to vote to change sharia laws especially in regards to beating, honor killings, etc.
• only have 1/2 the rights of a man
• moral police throw women in jail if they don’t pass some dress standard - basically they might be caught outside their tents.

hhmmm, I can’t remember any other things.

When groups such as the Taliban take over - and no muslim male defends the woman in those situations - they don’t even get to go to a doctor in cases of pregnancy, or if they have had acid/fire thrown on them. and the likelihood of their being a doctor is nil to zero since the schools are shut to girl children.

Now here are some better rights that they have… tic toc tic toc tic toc… sorry, I can’t think of any… what did mohammed say? women are ‘deficient in intelligence’ and hell is mostly full of women. I guess with predestination in islam - you don’t really have too much to say about that.

a muslim woman that woke up to the denigration of women in islam!

 

[Prime]

Jesus (p) allowed polygamy for men in OT. Solomon (p) had 1 thousands wives including concubines. I never heard or read that Jesus (p) was cruel to women for not allowing them having many husbands at a time.

Jesus did not allow polygamy in OT because He did not issue his statements there. All polygamy in OT was an an exception due to situational context.

But this is clearly stated in the Bible:

When God created marriage, He stated the man shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one flesh (Gen 2:24). Note that He does not say the three or more shall become one flesh. God’s purpose for marriage has always been a covenant relationship between one man and one woman. This is reaffirmed in Eph 5:31-33 where the marriage relationship is shown to be a picture of Christs relationship with His one bride, the Church, and the passage from Genesis is quoted, the two shall become one flesh. It goes on to say that each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself. Note that each individual has his own wife not his own wives.

I understand that Muhammad did the opposite of what Jesus taught. But that’s your problem that you better keep in Islam. We are only showing you that it’s not right.

 

[Eileen_T]

If my country came under Islamic rule, and my husband suddenly had the right to beat me, and he threatened me with this, I would take a cast iron frypan and beat the **** out of him.

Having said that, I know, because I married a Catholic Christian, this would never happen, because my husband lives his life according to the Good News preached by Jesus, especially the Sermon on the Mount. He stated in his marriage vows that he would lay down his life for me, and I made that vow for him…

It is also because of that teaching that I submit to my husband. As someone who grew up in the 60s/70s this was a real challenge. It is only because of my deep committment to Catholisism that I have been able to keep my marriage vows. I suspect my inarticulate husband would say the same.

 

[chrisse]

They don’t even get a ‘man toy’ in their heaven. It is just an orgy for the muslim males with 72 virgins and all the little boys they want. Their wives get to watch them. I don’t know what the children get - I guess they get to watch their fathers and other grown male relatives.

I suppose they get to get some of the food and all the water and wine that they want. Of course, even the wine isn’t really wine like we know it. Tough luck - they don’t even get to get drunk.

Actually, assuming their husband is happy with their behaviour (not allah), she is made 70 times more beautiful. Of course, as all women are made 70 times more beautiful, not sure this is still any consolation - the “beauty” is still relative.

One muslimah told me on a forum she gets a mirror to see how pretty she is. I’m serious here.

I was listening to a Islamic lecture on this recently in another forum, I’ll have to try and get it.

I can’t laugh anymore, it’s just sad.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

Jesus did not allow polygamy in OT

Jesus (p) is God to Christians & they think OT is from God but not from Jesus (p) . Huh…another puzzle.

 

[Charlotte2008]

I just got out of a 3 year relationship with a Muslim man and believe me when he wanted sex there was no choice on my part. He was physically stronger than me and acted like some kind of animal. One time I slapped him and he said (and this shook me to the core) “If you hit me it is not rape”. I wasn’t even married to him! I feel sorry for the woman he has subsequently married (though he will probably cheat on her constantly).

 

[Sister_Amy]

I just got out of a 3 year relationship with a Muslim man and believe me when he wanted sex there was no choice on my part. He was physically stronger than me and acted like some kind of animal. One time I slapped him and he said (and this shook me to the core) “If you hit me it is not rape”. I wasn’t even married to him! I feel sorry for the woman he has subsequently married (though he will probably cheat on her constantly).

I’m glad you are out of that kind of a relationship. His behavior obviously was not appropriate, on many levels. He might even be mentally disturbed, so distorted his perception of man-woman relations. I’m sure it’s much healthier for you to be out of that kind of a relationship.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think you’re viewing an extreme here that really misses the point of marriage. Why would a man who loves his wife make such demands of her? How is that going to make his wife feel? I don’t think I could be happy married to a man who made demands about anything in the relationship, not just about intercourse. If he made demands about what I cooked, or how I raised the kids, or how I sort the laundry, or anything else, it would make me upset.

So why would I marry someone who I thought would be demanding, inside or outside of the bedroom? It wouldn’t make me happy, obviously. So I wouldn’t marry a person who I thought was that way.

At the same time, I wouldn’t refuse my husband unless I had a really good reason–out of consideration for him. And I expect the same from him.

 

[qui_est_ce]

So why would I marry someone who I thought would be demanding, inside or outside of the bedroom? It wouldn’t make me happy, obviously. So I wouldn’t marry a person who I thought was that way.

At the same time, I wouldn’t refuse my husband unless I had a really good reason–out of consideration for him. And I expect the same from him.

Dear Sister Amy,
You have no idea what it’s like to be married to a sex maniac that wants sex three times a day.

Since Muslims and Christians are supposed to stay chaste before marriage, how would you know they’re sex maniacs?

Yes, I was raped many times when I was married. The more he got his way, the less interested I was. In fact I began to HATE it.

While you are young and single, it’s romantic to dream that a man would wisk you away from the stove and make love with you.

When the honeymoon is over, marriage is hard work between two individuals who have mutual respect.

Sometimes “No” for no reason at all is a good enough reason. In a healthy marriage this not a problem.