Climate Change Debate: Pope VS Trump Supporters?

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This is patently false - I am an environmentalist … even worked a an environmental engineer earlier in my career - cleaning up environmental contamination - you broadly sweep …

I care about the environment for my children and grandchildren …

I have liberal friends and conservative friends … my observation is that more conservatives work in the soup kitchens and food pantries - regularly - as in every week … the liberals show up at Christmas time and Thanksgiving …

I recycle far more than any of my liberal friends but they have castigated me for owning a truck … however I also own 58 acres - where I use that vehicle in caring for it.

I was picking up litter on highways when I was younger than you are - I have grandchildren older than you].

I also see the big government programs that have decimated our poor - like the war on poverty - which 50 years later is a failed policy that has done far more harm to our poor - especially minority communities …

Talk is cheap - saying you care is easy - really doing something to make a difference is hard … - the Paris Accord was just a way to suck US tax dollars to overseas as a redistribution of wealth - it had nothing to do with stopping global warming or reducing carbon emissions
I do not think the labels of liberal or conservative tell us much about what people do or do not do to help others. I would therefore not say that liberals talk more and act less, necessarily. It is really based on the individual, not their party affiliation.
 
Climate change is a moral issue, and one that threatens mankind’s entire existence.

Catholics NEED to consider ALL issues on the table when they vote. As I cited earlier, uscatholic.org/blog/201603/can-catholic-vote-democrat-moral-considerations-30587
Abortion shouldn’t be the most important issue when voting, Issues that we can actually fight are. EG: Climate Change, Social Security, Healthcare, Helping the Poor. The GOP is against all of those things.

As I said earlier, Trump and the Pope have access to hundreds, if not thousands of Climate Scientists.
👍

One pointed out that conservatives are more generous in their helping, but that is on an individual basis and I don’t know if there are stats to back it up, and if so, was wealth/income controlled for.

As for policies they support, the GOP is pretty much against doing anything about CC, against SS and healthcare. I know, bec I was reared in that party from the late 40s, and my mom, an ardent Republican was against all of the New Deal and similar programs. She changed later in life, switching her vote against Reagan as she was about to retire and reap the rewards from the New Deal.

As for CC, it is very weird, since there could be good GOP solutions that save money, strengthen the economy, improve health (without requiring costly healthcare tax dollars), advance technology, and enhance personal freedoms (like getting off the grid, etc). And I know at a personal level, many if not most conservatives like to live in clean environments with some green space. Tillerson filed a case to prevent fracking near his Texas estate.

However, the situation is this – conservative politicians are bought and paid for by the fossil fuel industries (and even some liberal politicians are too). They are little more than puppets for them, and I think Trump is even invested in those industries or hopes to reap great rewards from them and those who are in them.

It is like a cancerous growth that is leading to destruction and death and its grip is very firm, spreading, cancerous, as witnessed here at CAF, where I presume most of the CC denialists are not invested (at least heavily) in fossil fuels, except that they use them and are afraid that mitigating CC will somehow make their lives worse, reduce their freedoms and cost them money. They are blinded by the propaganda and fake blog-science, much of which is sponsored by the fossil fuel industries or orgs supported by them.

It’s like an addiction – “addicted to oil” as Bush said when leaving office. Or like being zonked into the Matrix, not being able or willing to understand reality.

We live in a very sick society. Even JPII, BXVI, and Pope Francis cannot get through to the Catholics here.

I’m thinking the only solution now is prayer, because nothing else works. We need miracles. The first Morning Prayer psalm for today starts out, “Lord, send forth your light and your truth. Defend me, O God, and plead my cause against a godless nation…”
 
From an eschatological standpoint, the Earth is a goner. To elevate any other issue above the annual slaughter of the unborn is absurd.
 
Thanks for posting this. I for one have considered CC one of the more serious pro-life issues for nearly 30 years. I know some here only consider abortion a pro-life issue, but there are many ways in which we contribute to people’s death, and CC is one of them, and if we follow a business-as-usual path and fail to mitigate CC, then it is possible that we will be wiping out a huge chunk of humanity over the next 100s & 1000s of years (from our current and near future contributions).

I am also against abortion, but consider wiping out a large portion of humanity a really bad way to reduce abortion.

It reached 95% scientific certainty in 1995, but scientists have been theorizing about anthropogenic climate change (ACC) for nearly 200 years, once they discovered the natural greenhouse effect and how it has allowed a warm enough climate on earth for life to exist. Aware of industrial emissions of CO2 and other GHGs they have been postulating ACC for nearly 200 years, but actual observational evidence of ACC, teasing out signal from noise (since there are other factors that impact climate), only happened in 1995.

As laypersons, we should not require 95% certainty re a serious threat to humanity. That’s why churches, including the Catholic Church and statements by JPII, have been telling people to mitigate it at least since 1990.

That’s when I started mitigating and we were surprised to find was could do so now down to less than 60% of our 1990 emissions cost-effectively, without lowering our living standards and saving us $1000s to boot. So there is absolutely NO REASON for people not to take this issue seriously and mitigate it in whatever ways they can.

Even if CC were not an issue I wouldn’t trust Trump at all. I’ve never had any respect for him – for his personal life or professional life. He comes across to me now even more as a liar and cheat, and very mean and uncouth, loutish.

I was hoping nevertheless that he would do what he could to mitigate CC, despite perhaps being invested in oil interests or having friends in the oil & coal industries. After all, Obama did something about it, even tho I think he was supported by the coal industry as a senator – he did more than I expected, considering that.

I’d like to see all fossil fuel money out of politics. And it would be great if subsidies and tax-breaks to the fossil fuel industries could be eliminated or reduced.

However, there are many ways we can “fight” it that would help the poor and save money for us all – we should do those things first…which could get us down to at least a 50% to 70% below our 1990 emissions AND strengthen our economy.

We can all do much as the personal, household, and business levels.

As for policies, one proposal that sounds good is “Fee and Dividend,” where by a fee is put on each barrel of oil and ton of coal than comes out of the ground or into our ports – and 100% of that money is divvied up equally and given to all SS card holders in monthly installments. They can then use that money to pay the resulting extra costs for fossil fuel energy or become energy/resource efficient/conservative, go on alt energy when feasible, and really be on the road to prosperity and saving lives that would have been harmed by fossil fuel extraction, processing, burning (local to global pollution), and waste disposal.

CC is a pro-life issue, but if you mean abortion, then at the personal level I would consider abortion a graver sin, since it seems to be more intentional. CC harms and killing are not intentional but more a byproduct of our living. To the extent we can feasibly reduce our contributions to ACC without harm to ourselves and families but refuse to do so, that would be somewhat more serious a sin. If we work hard to convince others that ACC is not real, that would be somewhat a more sin.

The point is if we really care about life on earth, we will abstain from having abortions AND fight ACC – one doesn’t preclude the other. And we will work to get others to abstain from abortions and emitting GHGs profligately, non-efficiently, and non-conservatively – in whatever ways we can, thru gov policies and other avenues.

As I tell my environmentalist friends (who may not be Catholic or into the abortion issue), it doesn’t make sense to save the earth for the children by killing children. They at least listen to me, while the CC denialist group does not.

I see you are new to CAF. Don’t be demoralized or disheartened by people here who are CC denialists. I tend to be demoralized by them, but I also see it as my obligation to speak out on this issue. Not to do so would be a sin.
+1
 
I caught this fish last October 25th. Even though it was late October it warm and I didn’t need a jacket. God bless the global warming that made that possible! Thank God for the fossil fuel burning vehicle that transported me to the river from my home that glorious day!!! Then afterward I got to experience air conditioning, electric lights and television! And…an electrically refrigerated beer!
And I’m getting called a debate troll…
 
This is patently false - I am an environmentalist … even worked a an environmental engineer earlier in my career - cleaning up environmental contamination - you broadly sweep …

I care about the environment for my children and grandchildren …

I have liberal friends and conservative friends … my observation is that more conservatives work in the soup kitchens and food pantries - regularly - as in every week … the liberals show up at Christmas time and Thanksgiving …

I recycle far more than any of my liberal friends but they have castigated me for owning a truck … however I also own 58 acres - where I use that vehicle in caring for it.

I was picking up litter on highways when I was younger than you are - I have grandchildren older than you].

I also see the big government programs that have decimated our poor - like the war on poverty - which 50 years later is a failed policy that has done far more harm to our poor - especially minority communities …

Talk is cheap - saying you care is easy - really doing something to make a difference is hard … - the Paris Accord was just a way to suck US tax dollars to overseas as a redistribution of wealth - it had nothing to do with stopping global warming or reducing carbon emissions
I’ll ask again.

How does the Paris Agreement do anything to hurt any country’s economy. Go through the Accord, and share exactly what would hurt the US. I’ll wait.
 
I caught this fish last October 25th. Even though it was late October it warm and I didn’t need a jacket. God bless the global warming that made that possible! Thank God for the fossil fuel burning vehicle that transported me to the river from my home that glorious day!!!
Yay 'Murica?

That may work well for you, but since I am a Christian, I have to think past my daily fish and look to those who are most in need. If nothing else, you post shows why the Holy Father needs to reach out to the Church and call us to a higher vision of what we are to do for others.
 
From an eschatological standpoint, the Earth is a goner. To elevate any other issue above the annual slaughter of the unborn is absurd.
This is a good point in that it reminds us we are pilgrims and our spiritual life is more important than our biological life, remember though that callous disregard for the physical needs of others can also damage us spiritually.

On the other hand, I remember that in Paul’s time Thessalonians had a problem of being so eschatological, thinking the coming of Christ eminent, that the left all regard for the world behind, stopped living and just started waiting. We do not know how long we have to husband our limited resources. Do we have to think toward the next century, or the next millennium?

Oh, and the inclusion of abortion is simply a false dichotomy, except maybe in the voting booth.
 
This is a good point in that it reminds us we are pilgrims and our spiritual life is more important than our biological life, remember though that callous disregard for the physical needs of others can also damage us spiritually.

On the other hand, I remember that in Paul’s time Thessalonians had a problem of being so eschatological, thinking the coming of Christ eminent, that the left all regard for the world behind, stopped living and just started waiting. We do not know how long we have to husband our limited resources. Do we have to think toward the next century, or the next millennium?

Oh, and the inclusion of abortion is simply a false dichotomy, except maybe in the voting booth.
In the late 90s there was this End Times program on Trinity Broadcasting that had a prologue with all the evils in the world today pointing to the End Times – aside from wars and storms, there were the feminists and environmentalists.

I wrote a letter explaining that many environmental problems harm and even kill people, and in part that is what environmentalists are fighting against. I wrote that I didn’t know when the End would come or even when my own life might end, but that I wanted to reduce my harms, including environmental harms, to others, or I might not make it to Heaven.

I did notice several weeks later that they cut out the environmentalists as a sign of the End Times in their prologue (I think they kept the feminists). When we got cable I was able to see EWTN, so I stopped looking at Trinity Broadcasting. However some years later when looking thru the channels, I saw that same program. They had a dog and were talking about how animals are our friends…

I think maybe they went further than I figured with my advice, since for most people “environment” means animals – usually wild (useless) animals in wilderness (useless) places. 🙂
 
How does the Paris Agreement do anything to hurt any country’s economy. Go through the Accord, and share exactly what would hurt the US. I’ll wait.
A lot of this would depend on who gets to rule on what the accord actually means. This seems very much like Obamacare: we have to pass it before we can know what it means. Given the nebulous way it is worded it seems clear that it could mean whatever a court or judge ruled it to mean, which could be enormously damaging.

Take Article 2:
*This Agreement, in enhancing the implementation of the Convention, including its objective, aims to strengthen the global response to the threat of climate change, in the context of sustainable development and efforts to eradicate poverty, including by:

(1,c): Making finance flows consistent with a pathway towards low greenhouse gas emissions and climate-resilient development.*
I have no idea what that means, and I really don’t want to accept the possibility that it could mean what some functionary would like it to mean.

How about this one:Article 4,1
  • In order to achieve the long-term temperature goal set out in Article 2, Parties aim to reach global peaking of greenhouse gas emissions as soon as possible,
    *Would this mean we couldn’t build another coal or gas electric generation plant? What determines if we’ve reached “global peaking”? If the same power could be generated from windmills that we could get from a coal plant would we have to build wind turbines because otherwise we would go beyond our “peak”? Who knows, but again the concern is that some bureaucrat would simply rule that way and we’re left to deal with the fallout.
    Article 4,4
  • Developed country Parties should continue taking the lead by undertaking economy-wide absolute emission reduction targets. **Developing country Parties should continue enhancing their mitigation efforts, and are encouraged to move over time towards economy-wide emission reduction or limitation targets in the light of different national circumstances. *That is, while we continue to reduce our output and growth, the countries with which we compete - Russia, China, India… - are justified in continuing to increase their outputs, so long as they promise that over time they will consider the possibility of reducing. I’m just all tingly at that prospect.
Ender
 
Climate change is a moral issue, and one that threatens mankind’s entire existence.
If “climate change” was believed to be an actual threat it would be immoral not to address it, but for those who do not believe it is a threat, there is no moral choice involved. That you believe it is a threat carries no moral significance to anyone else.
As I cited earlier, Abortion shouldn’t be the most important issue when voting, Issues that we can actually fight are. EG: Climate Change, Social Security, Healthcare, Helping the Poor. The GOP is against all of those things.
The fact that someone disagrees with you about how problems can best be solved does not mean that they don’t also want what is best. It’s really no different than being in a car and arguing about the fastest way to get somewhere: the destination is the same even though the routes are entirely different. Doesn’t it strike you as just a bit absurd to believe that people are really against “helping the poor”? If it doesn’t, it ought to.

Ender
 
If “climate change” was believed to be an actual threat it would be immoral not to address it, but for those who do not believe it is a threat, there is no moral choice involved. That you believe it is a threat carries no moral significance to anyone else.
The fact that someone disagrees with you about how problems can best be solved does not mean that they don’t also want what is best. It’s really no different than being in a car and arguing about the fastest way to get somewhere: the destination is the same even though the routes are entirely different. Doesn’t it strike you as just a bit absurd to believe that people are really against “helping the poor”? If it doesn’t, it ought to.

Ender
It is not exactly absurd. Poverty still has a stigma attached to it for some people, and not only in the minds of those who are not poor but also to the poor themselves. Some still believe that the poor become that way because of their own wrong choices, and they are therefore obligated to remedy the situation by pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. Why should the more fortunate help those who do not even appreciate the help but instead continue to behave badly? Not only poverty but also illness carries a stigma, particularly mental illness. This way of thinking has changed somewhat but not entirely.
 
From an eschatological standpoint, the Earth is a goner. To elevate any other issue above the annual slaughter of the unborn is absurd.
when Jesus returns we will have the earth we desire.
Revelation 21:1-Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more.
 
when Jesus returns we will have the earth we desire.
That’s pretty absurd logic to not protect the Earth we have now. What if He comes 10,000 years from now? How many generation would have had to struggle on a polluted planet? What if He comes 100,000 years from now? How many more?

It’s like saying people shouldn’t worry about being healthy because when He comes again, we’ll have a glorified body. Forgetting that in the meantime, we have to deal with this one.
 
That is, while we continue to reduce our output and growth, the countries with which we compete - Russia, China, India… - are justified in continuing to increase their outputs, so long as they promise that over time they will consider the possibility of reducing. I’m just all tingly at that prospect.
not to mention we have already donated $1 billion. we are obligated by mr. o to donate approx $3 bill a year after 2020. the accord maybe non-binding but he bound us by pledge. that is why we had to withdraw. this money is better spent on green energy development here in the states.

russia, china and india have donated nothing.

china and india will continue to build coal burning plants for years to come.

this isn’t about climate change it is about redistribution and globalization

if it was about climate change and emissions are such a dire issue why will we allow any new coal plant construction or any increase in emissions. one estimate has china increasing emissions 30% before reaching peak.

mr o has obligated us to reduce emissions by 28% while china and india will increase. maybe mr o was a coal man after all because our coal output will go up.

china is the number 1 producer so the climate will get worse under this accord. to repeat myself …it isn’t about the climate change but globalization.
 
Quote: Can you even call yourself Catholic if you disobey the Holy Father?

Be very careful…The only things Catholics are bound to agree with the Pope on are doctrines of the faith. His opinions about climate, etc are non-binding.

Additionally, I don’t think it’s accurate to say the GOP doesn’t care about healthcare, helping the poor, and climate change. They simply have different policies that the Democrats.

Ask yourself this, have the democratically inspired policies done much to help poor people? Was The Affordable Care Act everything they promised it would be? Have their climate policies made a noticeable difference.

Maybe, just maybe this is beyond political party. Blaming conservatives because they don’t think government involvement is the cure all for every issue is short-sighted. It seems to me that the federal government used to get a lot more accomplished when both sides met and COMPROMISED to bring forth good policies, but that hasn’t happened in decades.
 
That’s pretty absurd logic to not protect the Earth we have now. What if He comes 10,000 years from now? How many generation would have had to struggle on a polluted planet? What if He comes 100,000 years from now? How many more?

It’s like saying people shouldn’t worry about being healthy because when He comes again, we’ll have a glorified body. Forgetting that in the meantime, we have to deal with this one.
i believe this accord is a globalization scheme and will not do anything to save this planet? i think the bible is clear on this issue. we will see the world look like it is going to heck in a hand bag but Jesus will keep it until he comes and we have a mission to preach the gospel.

the red bold is my addition:
Matthew 24 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
6 And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places:
8 Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come.
 
It is not exactly absurd. Poverty still has a stigma attached to it for some people, and not only in the minds of those who are not poor but also to the poor themselves. Some still believe that the poor become that way because of their own wrong choices, and they are therefore obligated to remedy the situation by pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps. Why should the more fortunate help those who do not even appreciate the help but instead continue to behave badly? Not only poverty but also illness carries a stigma, particularly mental illness. This way of thinking has changed somewhat but not entirely.
It is certainly simpler to label people as being uncaring than to engage in discussions about why a particular social program is or is not a good idea, and that’s all this is. It assumes you’re good and they’re bad because they disagree with you about what needs to be done. If you were more comfortable with your positions you would be more inclined to defend ideas and perhaps less inclined to attack people.

Ender
 
not to mention we have already donated $1 billion. we are obligated by mr. o to donate approx $3 bill a year after 2020. the accord maybe non-binding but he bound us by pledge. that is why we had to withdraw. this money is better spent on green energy development here in the states.
The lack of electricity is probably the greatest deficiency and the most urgent need in the undeveloped parts of the world. How much good do you think could be done if we spent that $3B/yr building small, coal fired, generating plants throughout Africa, South America, and Asia? I don’t so much mind spending the money, but I do very much mind wasting it on boutique sources of energy that provide very little assistance to the people who actually need it, and that does little other than make us all feel really good about ourselves.

Ender
 
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