Climate change hits Mars

[steveandersen]

They don’t? Mars is a globe – you can see that for yourself through a telescope.

I said the consensus is that the phenomenon isn’t global not that Mars isn’t a globe.

So we see two planets warming up in the same solar system (with evidence of added energy reaching other planets as well) and that’s just a concidence?

Maybe …Maybe not
Science isn’t about obvious, straight line connect the dots between A & B. If it was all that easy we wouldn’t need scientists nor would we have had to wait millennia for the industrial revolution. That is why they research things with guys who have to spend the first 25 years of their lives just going to school to learn enough so that they can begin to work on the research.
There has to be a mechanism to explain it. Mere empiricism only gets you so far.
I’m told that there are several mechanisms that would fit the observations.

Mars has a much thinner atmosphere than earth and doesn’t have oceans. It therefore doesn’t have a whole lot of thermal inertia in its climate.
So while yes it is potentially more sensitive to solar emissions than the Earth it’s also more sensitive to other phenomenon such as its eccentricity.

What is your alternative?
That the researchers are incompetent or lying?

I’m no climate specialist but from what I have read they have looked at solar forcing and (just like on earth) the consensus is that it is not the only part of the picture.

Do they deny the observations?

How can you deny observations?

Well I know you can
But I mean how or why would scientists deny observations?

Once again you are suggesting that they are incompetent or lying.

Which are due to …?

Well since I gave you the authors you could have looked it up yourself the same way I did.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I said the consensus is that the phenomenon isn’t global not that Mars isn’t a globe.

But if Mars was a cube, it would be cubal, right?

Maybe …Maybe not
Science isn’t about obvious, straight line connect the dots between A & B. If it was all that easy we wouldn’t need scientists nor would we have had to wait millennia for the industrial revolution. That is why they research things with guys who have to spend the first 25 years of their lives just going to school to learn enough so that they can begin to work on the research.
There has to be a mechanism to explain it. Mere empiricism only gets you so far.
I’m told that there are several mechanisms that would fit the observations.

Thank you for making my point for me – we don’t know enough to launch massive programs that may well do more harm than good.

Mars has a much thinner atmosphere than earth and doesn’t have oceans. It therefore doesn’t have a whole lot of thermal inertia in its climate.
So while yes it is potentially more sensitive to solar emissions than the Earth it’s also more sensitive to other phenomenon such as its eccentricity.

It’s also farther away from the sun than Earth – and if enough added solar energy is reaching Mars to have such an effect, clearly a lot is reaching Earth.

What is your alternative?
That the researchers are incompetent or lying?

When you have “researchers” saying “We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm” and when you have other “researchers” demanding anyone who disagrees with them be decertified, then your alternate explanations look more plausible.

I’m no climate specialist but from what I have read they have looked at solar forcing and (just like on earth) the consensus is that it is not the only part of the picture.

The other part being Martians driving SUVs?

How can you deny observations?

I have seen the Martian phenomena denied more than once on these forums.

Once again you are suggesting that they are incompetent or lying.

When they try to hide data such as the Medeval Warm period, when they clamor for those who disagree with them to be defrocked, such a suggestion becomes more plausible.

Well since I gave you the authors you could have looked it up yourself the same way I did.

Ah, the old, “I don’t have to answer questions – because if I do, other people will see the answers and it will hurt my argument” ploy.

 

[Lance]

Follow the money! Researchers will say what ever gets them the next grant to do more research.

 

[Lance]

He should be on Mars, lying in front of the Martian SUVs to stop them.

(By the way, did you know all Martians are clones of George “I dare protestors to lie down in front of mah cahr!” Wallace?)

Do you mean to say that you think Algore would lie as in tell an untruth?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Do you mean to say that you think Algore would lie as in tell an untruth?

The man who “took the initiative to create the Internet?” Whose grandfather taught him to “clear land with a double-bitted axe?” Who “plowed steep hillsides with a mule?” Would that man tell a lie?

 

[Lance]

The man who “took the initiative to create the Internet?” Whose grandfather taught him to “clear land with a double-bitted axe?” Who “plowed steep hillsides with a mule?” Would that man tell a lie?

I always wanted to ask Al how he came up with the IP Addressing schema. I’ll wager he has never cut down a tree with a chain saw much less a double-bitted axe and that he could not tell a mule from a donkey. IMO he would lie about anything, anytime, anywhere if it got him time in the limelight.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I always wanted to ask Al how he came up with the IP Addressing schema. I’ll wager he has never cut down a tree with a chain saw much less a double-bitted axe and that he could not tell a mule from a donkey. IMO he would lie about anything, anytime, anywhere if it got him time in the limelight.

I’m not sure if I believe him or not. If I had a grandchild that was a bit off, I wouldn’t trust him with a double-bitted axe. On the other hand, if that child was Al Gore . . .

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think Al Gore needs to hop the next rocket to Mars in order to plant trees in the Martian tropics. Since he makes money from his company that will sell you planted trees somewhere to reduce your carbon footprint (he gets his carbon footprint reduced gratis, as a “bonus” from his own company) he will surely want to start a tree plantation on Mars in order to keep it from flooding, blowing away, freezing, baking, dying of thirst, drowning and all the other things global warming causes. And, I am sure he will be glad to sell you an interest in his Martian plantation.

For myself, I think I’ll just continue eating beef to reduce my carbon footprint right here on earth. Those cows emit methane, you know, and the fewer there are, the less methane goes into the atmosphere and, perhaps most importantly, the less likely they are to sneak over and colonize Mars.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think Al Gore needs to hop the next rocket to Mars in order to plant trees in the Martian tropics. Since he makes money from his company that will sell you planted trees somewhere to reduce your carbon footprint (he gets his carbon footprint reduced gratis, as a “bonus” from his own company) he will surely want to start a tree plantation on Mars in order to keep it from flooding, blowing away, freezing, baking, dying of thirst, drowning and all the other things global warming causes. And, I am sure he will be glad to sell you an interest in his Martian plantation.

I hope it’s more profitable than plowing that steep hillside he sold me.

For myself, I think I’ll just continue eating beef to reduce my carbon footprint right here on earth. Those cows emit methane, you know, and the fewer there are, the less methane goes into the atmosphere and, perhaps most importantly, the less likely they are to sneak over and colonize Mars.

Reminds me of an old Montana cowman I used to know. At a restaurant, he’d always order lamb. Then he’d glare challengingly at everyone else and say, “Eat 'em up and git rid of 'em, that’s my motto.”

 

[Urf]

The atmosphere on Mars consists of 95% carbon dioxide, 3% nitrogen, 1.6% argon, and contains traces of oxygen and water.
(Mars Fact Sheet. National Space Science Data Center. NASA.)

thankyou -.-

Really, thanks

However it’s really depressing that not a single post in this thread has even acknowledged what you said. Oh well, ignorance is bliss, as they say.

 

[simonadams]

thankyou -.-

Really, thanks

However it’s really depressing that not a single post in this thread has even acknowledged what you said. Oh well, ignorance is bliss, as they say.

Yes its sad. Especially now we know that Mars used to have rain and flowing rivers in the past - you might have thought people would take notice.

And anyway, this whole thread is based on what it is probably just a regional climate cycle - not global warming of the the type we have on earth at present. Mars is affected by huge dust storms that affect the weather in a completely different way than earth - and the climate at the poles in particular are known to be inconsistent in their (martian) yearly cycles.

 

[seekerz]

Yes its sad. Especially now we know that Mars used to have rain and flowing rivers in the past - you might have thought people would take notice.

And anyway, this whole thread is based on what it is probably just a regional climate cycle - not global warming of the the type we have on earth at present. Mars is affected by huge dust storms that affect the weather in a completely different way than earth - and the climate at the poles in particular are known to be inconsistent in their (martian) yearly cycles.

Cheer up guys, sometimes it’s enough to try to make sense of things. You don’t necessarily have to succeed or convince others; there’s some satisfaction just in knowing you tried.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes its sad. Especially now we know that Mars used to have rain and flowing rivers in the past - you might have thought people would take notice.

Careful. Those crocodile tears may bring on Global Flooding .

And anyway, this whole thread is based on what it is probably just a regional climate cycle - not global warming of the the type we have on earth at present. Mars is affected by huge dust storms that affect the weather in a completely different way than earth - and the climate at the poles in particular are known to be inconsistent in their (martian) yearly cycles.

Kind of a double standard, isn’t it? “Probably” is enough to justify vast economic dislocations – which may well prove counter-productive – but not enough to question those foregone conclusions.

 

[simonadams]

Kind of a double standard, isn’t it? “Probably” is enough to justify vast economic dislocations – which may well prove counter-productive – but not enough to question those foregone conclusions.

1. The “Probably” is with reference to Mars - we only have a fraction of the data for Mars that we have on earth. So our understanding of its climate is fairly limited.
2. Where does the “vast economic dislocations” idea come from ? Who is suggesting anything like that ?

 

[vern_humphrey]

1. The “Probably” is with reference to Mars - we only have a fraction of the data for Mars that we have on earth. So our understanding of its climate is fairly limited.

The understanding we have of Earth’s climate isn’t much greater. So how can wesay with assurance what’s happening on Mars has no relation to Earth?

1. Where does the “vast economic dislocations” idea come from ? Who is suggesting anything like that ?

I’ve read the Kyoto Protocol. I’ve seen what Al Gore and others are calling for. Are you saying the “solution” to “global warming” is cost-free?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1720024.ece

And a brass band played “Whoda Thunkit!”

Clearly our spraycan emissions are so bad they are affecting Mars too.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Clearly our spraycan emissions are so bad they are affecting Mars too.

Well, with regard to warming on Mars, our resident viewers-with-alarm assure me that although it looks like a duck, it swims like a duck, it quacks like a duck and it associates with ducks – it’s really a platypus.

 

[simonadams]

The understanding we have of Earth’s climate isn’t much greater. So how can wesay with assurance what’s happening on Mars has no relation to Earth?

We have centuries of all kinds of direct measurements from all over the place on earth. Using other techniques we can get partial data going back millions of years.

And its certainly not changes in the amount of sun that’s caused the recent changes at the pole since Mars got less solar radiance in 2005 than it did during 2003 purely due to the 11 year cycle.

I’ve read the Kyoto Protocol. I’ve seen what Al Gore and others are calling for. Are you saying the “solution” to “global warming” is cost-free?

Its hardly “vast economic dislocations”. And in the long run doing nothing now will actually cost far more. Have you read the Stern Report → hm-treasury.gov.uk/independent_reviews/stern_review_economics_climate_change/stern_review_report.cfm ?

 

[vern_humphrey]

We have centuries of all kinds of direct measurements from all over the place on earth. Using other techniques we can get partial data going back millions of years.

Centuries, eh?

The thermometer was invented in 1724. But it was a looooooong time before we had world-wide accurate measurements.

And let me point out than in a planetary history of more than four billion years, less than three centuries is hardly enough to give us anything significant.

And its certainly not changes in the amount of sun that’s caused the recent changes at the pole since Mars got less solar radiance in 2005 than it did during 2003 purely due to the 11 year cycle.

In a previous post you told me we know little about Mars’ climate, but now we know it’s “certainly not changes in the amount of sun that’s caused the recent changes at the pole.”

We obviously learned a lot since your previous post.

Its hardly “vast economic dislocations”.

Tell that to someone who hasn’t read the Kyoto Protocols, or seen what Al Gore and his followers call for.

And in the long run doing nothing now will actually cost far more. Have you read the Stern Report → hm-treasury.gov.uk/independent_reviews/stern_review_economics_climate_change/stern_review_report.cfm ?

So you say – note this same report was once presented on these forums as coming from a “Capitalist,” thus proving it would be good for the economy.

 

[simonadams]

Centuries, eh?

The thermometer was invented in 1724. But it was a looooooong time before we had world-wide accurate measurements.

And let me point out than in a planetary history of more than four billion years, less than three centuries is hardly enough to give us anything significant.

We can get reasonable average yearly temperatures from looking at tree rings - and that goes back millenia! Thats quite apart from ice core data etc etc

In a previous post you told me we know little about Mars’ climate, but now we know it’s “certainly not changes in the amount of sun that’s caused the recent changes at the pole.”

We obviously learned a lot since your previous post.

Hehe. Actually we do know relatively little about the Martian climate. However since the 1970s we have had various probes visiting there and taking measurements, most recently the Mars Global Surveyor. Incidentally the average temperature on Mars is now significantly lower than it was when Viking was there in the 70s.

So you say – note this same report was once presented on these forums as coming from a “Capitalist,” thus proving it would be good for the economy.

What’s the problem with that ? I think we’re pretty much all capitalists nowadays - just with greater or less belief in social security.