Climate change hits Mars

[vern_humphrey]

We can get reasonable average yearly temperatures from looking at tree rings - and that goes back millenia! Thats quite apart from ice core data etc etc

I know some scientists who will be surprised to learn that tree rings are indicators of temperature, and not precipitation.

Hehe. Actually we do know relatively little about the Martian climate. However since the 1970s we have had various probes visiting there and taking measurements, most recently the Mars Global Surveyor. Incidentally the average temperature on Mars is now significantly lower than it was when Viking was there in the 70s.

So Mars is undergoing Global Cooling?

I thought that was a plot instigated by Winchester Repeating Arms Company – to get us all to buy .458 Winchester Magnums, so as to be ready for the mammoths when they come back.

What’s the problem with that ? I think we’re pretty much all capitalists nowadays - just with greater or less belief in social security.

Riiiiight. Capitalism is the spirit behind the Kyoto Protocol.

 

[simonadams]

I know some scientists who will be surprised to learn that tree rings are indicators of temperature, and not precipitation.

Really ? I guess they must be the ones that deny anthropocentric global warming

In reality the trees are affected by both temperature and precipitation, which is why scientists use “limiting stands” and other data such as botanical factors to differentiate the factors.

So Mars is undergoing Global Cooling?

No - it has regional changes year to year. There is no reason to assume any medium term global change from the data we have.

Riiiiight. Capitalism is the spirit behind the Kyoto Protocol.

No - the spirit behind the Kyoto Protocol is countries working together to try and safeguard the future, with better off countries helping poorer ones financially and through technology.

 

[Lance]

To be blunt about it I could not care less if the temperature on Mars is going up or down or if it is related to what is going on on Earth or not. I believe we should be good stewards of the place God has given us to live, we likewise have an obligation to use the resources He gave us to make a better life for ourselves and others. He gave us oil and nuclear for energy, therefore we should use them but we should make them as clean and safe as we can. We don’t have to destroy the economies of the world in order to do this. Algore buy carbon credits don’t mean ****, he is still using more than his share of energy. Buying carbon credits is like having someone else do my pennance for me. I am not convienced that the reason the earth is warming is becuse of mankind’s carbon emissions, there are far too many scientists who think otherwise. All we need to do is not waste energy and do like the owl on the old billboards used to say, “Give a hoot, don’t pollute!”

 

[vern_humphrey]

Really ? I guess they must be the ones that deny anthropocentric global warming

In reality the trees are affected by both temperature and precipitation, which is why scientists use “limiting stands” and other data such as botanical factors to differentiate the factors.

Right. Tree rings also track the Pleistocene stock market, record the calving rate for mammoths, and can be used to do your income tax.

No - it has regional changes year to year. There is no reason to assume any medium term global change from the data we have.

There are scientists who disagree with you – especially those who note the same sun that shines on Earth also shines on Mars.

No - the spirit behind the Kyoto Protocol is countries working together to try and safeguard the future, with better off countries helping poorer ones financially and through technology.

Ah, the spirit behind the Kyoto Protocol. That’s where we all get together and sing “Kumbayah.” The spirit will fix everything – no need to any details, or actual work. Got it.

 

[Hipster_Doofus]

I think this whole global warming/climate change thing is breaking down according to Left/Right lines, which is unfortunate.

The Left tends to agree with Gore. The Right insists nothing is wrong, probably because it doesn’t want anything to interrupt the smooth running of big business and industry, and a pro-environmental policy would be a pain in the neck for business and industry.

(I find it alarming that the Federal government is allowing business to use the resources of Federal lands for financial gain, instead of preserving God’s creation for future generations.)

I think the Right tends to feel that because the Left is wrong about so much else, like abortion, then it has to be wrong about this. I believe big business has been sending out talking heads to cast doubt on environmental issues, so those businesses can proceed unimpeded.

But I believe if the Left embraces the fascism of the Culture of Death, then the Right also embraces the fascism of the Culture of Money.

My point is–we need to be objective about global warming, and not let our politics and ideologies get dragged into this. And for what it’s worth, though I’m not a scientist, it’s pretty clear to me that we’re ruining our planet.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think this whole global warming/climate change thing is breaking down according to Left/Right lines, which is unfortunate.

The Left tends to agree with Gore. The Right insists nothing is wrong, probably because it doesn’t want anything to interrupt the smooth running of big business and industry, and a pro-environmental policy would be a pain in the neck for business and industry.

(I find it alarming that the Federal government is allowing business to use the resources of Federal lands for financial gain, instead of preserving God’s creation for future generations.)

I think the Right tends to feel that because the Left is wrong about so much else, like abortion, then it has to be wrong about this. I believe big business has been sending out talking heads to cast doubt on environmental issues, so those businesses can proceed unimpeded.

But I believe if the Left embraces the fascism of the Culture of Death, then the Right also embraces the fascism of the Culture of Money.

My point is–we need to be objective about global warming, and not let our politics and ideologies get dragged into this. And for what it’s worth, though I’m not a scientist, it’s pretty clear to me that we’re ruining our planet.

I don’t know about left and right, but what I see is that there is room to swing a cat here:

1. The earth has been much warmer (and much colder) than it is today. And that happened before mankind evolved.
2. The data we have is subject to many different interpretations. And we don’t have a lot of it – after all, a century or so in the 4+ billion years of the planet’s life doesn’t pass the significance test.
3. There is a lot of hype - - so much so that some scientists who belive global warming is man-caused have pointed out that “An Inconvenitent Truth” is badly flawed.
4. There is a rush to cut off debate – Dr. Hidie Clum (of “Weather Channel” fame has publicly said meteorologists who don’t agree with her should be de-certified.
5. The proposed “solutions” all attack the economic system, and there are no actions advanced that would capitalize on Global Warming, if it should be true (such as increased growing seasons, opening the Northwest Passage, and so on.)

 

[Hipster_Doofus]

I wouldn’t want us to go off half-cocked. but at the same time I wouldn’t want us to ignore a problem if we have a chance of fixing it.

I do have a serious problem that so much of the world is arranged for the financial benefit of a few, while the majority suffers. (And please, before you brand me a liberal, remember the Church opposes not only communism and socialism, but unbridled, socially irresponsible capitalism as well.)

And I fear much of the opposition to doing anything in favor of the environment is connected to the preservation and maintenance of that socially inequitable economic apparatus. I think the existing economic institutions need to be attacked, or at least drastically reformed, though I have no faith that will ever happen. And I think it’s obscene we have a system that allows people to build 20,000 square foot mansions in the Hamptons and lets others sleep in the streets.

But this economic reform should be on Catholic principles, though again, I doubt such reform will ever actually happen. I personally believe society will just commit slow suicide instead.

I think it is contrary to the Culture of Life that we should destroy the planet for future generations. How does making earth unlivable, unable to sustain life and agriculture, etc., support a culture of life?

 

[KathleenElsie]

I think it is the ASTHMA INHALER S that they banned. When I used them my asthma was under control. The new powders don’t do the job for me. So now instead of $20 a month in copays for four and now it costs me $45 each to get these “special” rescue or cortisone inhalers.

I wonder how much the ozone layer changed when they forced this change on the medical community? Also I wonder how many people are like me and still need this kind of inhaler but can’t afford them? There is a cost to change and in some cases it can kill (asthma is a killer condition in way to many cases) and this is a proven fact not speculation.

 

[franksv]

I am orignally from mars, what do you want to know about it?

 

[vern_humphrey]

I wouldn’t want us to go off half-cocked. but at the same time I wouldn’t want us to ignore a problem if we have a chance of fixing it.

You just raised the key issue. Define “fixing it.”

1. Can we lower the temperature of the earth?
2. If we can, what is the ideal temperature?
3. What do we forego with a colder earth? We know growing seasons were shorter, there was less arable land during the Little Ice Age. Is that good?

I do have a serious problem that so much of the world is arranged for the financial benefit of a few, while the majority suffers. (And please, before you brand me a liberal, remember the Church opposes not only communism and socialism, but unbridled, socially irresponsible capitalism as well.)

But what is “unbridled, socially irresponsible capitalism?” And where does this critter lurk? If I had a license to hunt “unbridled, socially irresponsible capitalism,” where would I go to hunt it, and what would it look like when I saw it?

And I fear much of the opposition to doing anything in favor of the environment is connected to the preservation and maintenance of that socially inequitable economic apparatus.

And where do you find “opposition to doing anything in favor of the environment?” Who opposes environmentally sound stewardship?

Or to make it real, how do I “oppose doing anything in favor of the environment?”

I heat my home with a Water Furnace which uses half the power my neigobors consume. I have 185 acres of mostly mature hardwoods, which transform CO2 into O2. I fertilize my trees and pasture, making them even more effective. I have my own garden and I hunt, thus using less energy to get food. I keep trash to a minimum, and recycle the manximum amount.

Tell me that I “oppose doing anything in favor of the environment!” I’ll match anyone on these forums in terms of what I do for the environment.

I think the existing economic institutions need to be attacked, or at least drastically reformed, though I have no faith that will ever happen. And I think it’s obscene we have a system that allows people to build 20,000 square foot mansions in the Hamptons and lets others sleep in the streets.

Will you take one of those street people into your home?

But this economic reform should be on Catholic principles, though again, I doubt such reform will ever actually happen. I personally believe society will just commit slow suicide instead.

Or it will run wild demanding “drastic reform” of the existing economic system (without any clear understanding of what that system is), embark on unwise and costly programs to reverse natural global climate change and commit faster suicide.

I think it is contrary to the Culture of Life that we should destroy the planet for future generations. How does making earth unlivable, unable to sustain life and agriculture, etc., support a culture of life?

Yet that is exactly what the more rabid climate change proponents would have us do. They would have us choke off the economy that supports billions of people, and let those people starve.

 

[Hipster_Doofus]

Well Vern, I’ve come to expect nothing less from you over the years than far right reactionary politics, “Bush-can-do-no-wrong”-ism, and the resounding din of you laughing at your own lame jokes, so there’s no point in my trying to answer your “arguments.” You’re one of those that CAF has way too many of–people who keep arguing and contradicting everyone until they’ve run everybody off their little 12 inch hill. then they run off to the next thread to see who else they can shout down. Your manner and that of others with your viewpoint is what often causes me to leave this site in disgust.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Well Vern, I’ve come to expect nothing less from you over the years than far right reactionary politics, “Bush-can-do-no-wrong”-ism, and the resounding din of you laughing at your own lame jokes, so there’s no point in my trying to answer your “arguments.”

When you sink to personal attacks like that, you have lost the discussion.

You’re one of those that CAF has way too many of–people who keep arguing and contradicting everyone until they’ve run everybody off their little 12 inch hill. then they run off to the next thread to see who else they can shout down. Your manner and that of others with your viewpoint is what often causes me to leave this site in disgust.

And, having been bested in the discussion, failing to aswer the simple questions you have been asked, you now leave in a huff.

 

[Hipster_Doofus]

And thanks for proving all my points, especially that you are incapable of discussion, or seeing any view other than John Birch’s.

 

[vern_humphrey]

And thanks for proving all my points, especially that you are incapable of discussion, or seeing any view other than John Birch’s.

You realize when you use insults like this it casts discredit not only on you, but on others who might be your allies?

By the way, who’s John Birch?

 

[Adonis33]

Well Vern, I’ve come to expect nothing less from you over the years than far right reactionary politics, “Bush-can-do-no-wrong”-ism, and the resounding din of you laughing at your own lame jokes, so there’s no point in my trying to answer your “arguments.” You’re one of those that CAF has way too many of–people who keep arguing and contradicting everyone until they’ve run everybody off their little 12 inch hill. then they run off to the next thread to see who else they can shout down. Your manner and that of others with your viewpoint is what often causes me to leave this site in disgust.

WOW. You are the only one on this thread that has engaged in insulting. “Hello pot - yeah this is the kettle calling”.

And “known over the years”??? It says you joined a week ago.

 

[Hipster_Doofus]

I’ve signed up under different names over the years, and left in disgust several times at the obnoxious bullying that often takes place on CAF.

Reread my post. I didn’t use the word “insult.” He did. I had and have a problem with his typical tone and manner and attempts to shout down anyone who doesn’t agree with his reactionary politics and world view.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’ve signed up under different names over the years, and left in disgust several times at the obnoxious bullying that often takes place on CAF.

Reread my post. I didn’t use the word “insult.” He did. I had and have a problem with his typical tone and manner and attempts to shout down anyone who doesn’t agree with his reactionary politics and world view.

No one forces you to read my posts.

 

[Hipster_Doofus]

True, but you and several others like to dominate certain threads and shout down anyone who doesn’t agree with you until they finally get bored or tired and go elsewhere. In that way, CAF is no different from most secular discussion boards.

 

[vern_humphrey]

True, but you and several others like to dominate certain threads and shout down anyone who doesn’t agree with you until they finally get bored or tired and go elsewhere. In that way, CAF is no different from most secular discussion boards.

We shout? Through the keyboard?

No, we advance well-reasoned arguments, backed by data. Those who cannot deal with gentlemanly debate are, I admit, sometimes frustrated by this.

 

[Hipster_Doofus]

You keep telling yourself that.