Closer to God..... but farther from salvation?

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**837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
 
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fhansen said:
I’m saying that wearing the name “Catholic” is not enough, just as outward appearance of obedience of the law was not enough for the Pharisees.
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It’s not enough to be saved.

But that doesn’t mean you have the duty to leave.
 
Not the duty. But one isn’t really “there” to begin with until they’re there in body and heart. The gospel hasn’t really penetrated them IOW. It’s just the way it is IMO-and when we finally arrive there, then our culpability would increase manyfold for leaving.
 
fhansen said:
But one isn’t really “there” to begin with until they’re there in body and heart.
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And they are in a dangerous position. Like Friday’s Gospel said, they have their house in order but no one is home!
 
Julius_Caesar said:
And they are in a dangerous position. Like Friday’s Gospel said, they have their house in order but no one is home!
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This reminds me a lot of the story of the Fall. Adam should’ve known better because he was told the truth, by God in this case; he shouldn’t have disobeyed and yet he did-and God didn’t give up on him. And I presume that Adam finally learned the hard way who the real Boss is, and was ultimately reconciled with Him as we all must be. So we all start out dead, separated from God and in need of reconciliation which begins with faith on our part. And even if we’re given the knowledge by another being, we don’t necessarily suddenly awake and arise from the dead.

And being a card-carrying Catholic in the physical sense, as a body present in the Church, doesn’t, by itself, resolve that matter-and remove the danger- as we apparently agree and as the Church teaches. We must learn the hard way, as I’ve experienced things anyway, and as Adam & Eve would’ve done as well. I’ve seen strong Catholics who’ve remained in the Church since day one, others who’ve been converts from no faith or from non-Catholic denominations, and others yet who’ve “reverted” back to the faith once they, like other people have, come to understand. But IMO we need to get past this very legalistic notion that just being a Catholic, and even that plus committing no unconfessed mortal sins, is enough to skate by with.

As is taught in para 837 that I quoted:
Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved.

And if we’re not saved, then what would possibly be the point of it all? Echoing this teaching is para 1022 addressing our particular judgment, quoting St John of the Cross:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

When that is the reason why we refrain from sin, since love opposes and excludes sin by its nature, then we are existing in the state that God desires for us, and the Church has accomplished her purpose.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
Second, I think virtually everyone who left the Catholic Church to join another faith did so by pooh-poohing the idea that the Catholic Church was God’s one true Church. Either they decide that another church is the true church, or they decide it doesn’t matter and one church is as good as another and you should just pick the one that feels good/ is convenient/ is the church of the person you marry etc. I don’t think you can say that every one of those people somehow lacked knowledge that the Catholic Church was the true church and thus didn’t sin when they left. “Lack of knowledge” would only apply if a person was somehow never told or taught that it was wrong for a Catholic to change churches.
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This doesn’t make sense to me. If they left for another church for either of the reasons you mentioned (they thought the other church was the true church or that any church was as good as the next), then by definition, they did not “know that the Catholic Church is the true church.”
 
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As to the OP, no matter how complicated people try and make it, this, like all sins, is only sin in the subjective sense (culpability) if done with sufficient understanding and freedom. There isn’t a special category of sin that applies with “strict liability” to borrow a legal term. We already painfully know that Catholics are among the least educated people regarding their faith. The idea they all fully understand that they’re walking away from the “one, true church” is plainly absurd. Most of them are Catholic because their families are and only half-believe the few things they know about it.
 
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Yes, and I’m betting that by now he chose to follow God.
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
In that moment, he did not. That is the exact choice people who leave the Church make.
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I think Adam may’ve been more culpable, given the knowledge and gifts he had. But either way I’m saying, that, in order to have finally made the right choice, Adam would’ve needed to learn; he would’ve had to come to know better by now, knowledge, again, being key to culpability. God knew that Adam, that man, could/can be redeemed, that he’s salvageable- and not merely salvageable but capable of becoming a grandly noble and glorious being.

And so while the sin remains sin, culpability, again, varies. Adam died the “death of the soul” but he presumably rose again later with Christ. His descendants are born already dead in that way now and yet even after being raised Catholic, with all that entails, the Church teaches that we’re not necessarily saved, that we haven’t necessarily rose and attained to the resurrection ourselves that St Paul said he was striving for in Phil 3.

A baptized infant who’s later catechized as a child will be expected to confirm his own baptismal vows as he reaches the age of accountability. Until then he’s not expected to really know, or to be accountable for the knowledge relayed to him in any case. And until his own faith and, ultimately, love, has taken hold then he demonstrates that said knowledge or teachings are not yet “owned” by him. Again we don’t/can’t honestly believe simply because we’re told.
 
In typing a lot you’ve said nothing.

Once a person makes the choice to leave God, that person is in a state of sin. For the people you speak of, Christ has not occupied their hearts, so they are worse off for the wear.

Don’t make excuses for people who do this.
 
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WillC said:
I’m not gunna lie… Since my faith search really began several years ago, this is the first time I feel really uneasy. It seems so… backwards.
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Yes, there’s something very backwards about the priest’s concepts. And I don’t see where or how the Church agrees even as she knows that she’s the authentic ark created to carry man to his salvation. “A” may, unwittingly, unknowingly, be living more Catholic than she was before. She just doesn’t yet know that the Catholic Church is the real reason that the Christian faith even continued to exist at all. And that the Church’s teachings actually form the backdrop for the faith she now possesses.
 
Julius_Caesar said:
Once a person makes the choice to leave God, that person is in a state of sin. For the people you speak of, Christ has not occupied their hearts, so they are worse off for the wear.

Don’t make excuses for people who do this.
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They haven’t at all necessarily done that. They just got honest. Then God can begin to work in their lives and use them. It’s a matter of getting real. They had nothing to leave at that point.
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
They left the Church and had nothing to leave.
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Yes, because even being in the Church they didn’t yet know God, Whom you say they left. They were there ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.
fhansen said:
**837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved . He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
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To know God is to love God. And:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
 
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Its the way we all start out anyway. No one can give us faith, except for God and our responding to that grace.
 
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Julius_Caesar said:
And a way we have to leave.
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Yes! Adam took the long way home. We emulate that family tradition until and unless we’re ready to come home ourselves. The message of the Church plants a seed that may or may not take root and grow-and even if it does it may take a very long time to produce fruit, whether we remain in the Church in the meanwhile or not. I’m not advocating leaving the Church. I’m challenging Catholics to go further, to seek more, to know their faith better-because something is so often missing and we end up digressing into legalism and religiosity- and to ultimately miss this crucial truth:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love"

The point is that, as para 837 of the catechism teaches, being in the “bosom of the Church” is not, by itself, enough.
 
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