Closer to God..... but farther from salvation?

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Raxus said:
Why would you even ask, given their name?
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Ok…what i meant is westboro baptists are still “protestant” and united by the general understanding we have on the bishop of Rome( that he is not head bishop or pope).
 
Beat around the bush LOL? The catechism is plain enough. But sure, if you repeat after me, those described likely lack full knowledge of the truth. And if you don’t understand that by now, then I think perhaps you should do a bit more searching for truth yourself.
 
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mcq72 said:
Ok…what i meant is westboro baptists are still “protestant” and united by the general understanding we have on the bishop of Rome( that he is not head bishop or pope).
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Well, that answers my question. Wow.
 
fhansen said:
Yes, there’s something very backwards about the priest’s concepts. And I don’t see where or how the Church agrees even as she knows that she’s the authentic ark created to carry man to his salvation.
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Yes, I think that perhaps in this situation Christ’s mercy overcomes the ignorance of “A”. Since she didn’t leave from denying Christ, just not having an understanding of Him in the first place.
 
Julius_Caesar said:
You try to exonorate apostasy and I need to search for truth. 😆😆
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Pretty hard to apostasize from something one doesn’t believe in to begin with. That’s the truth. Unless you advocate that people stay out of fear that the faith might be true, like some kind of Church automatons. But Jesus warns the lukewarm and Scripture tells us that no cowards enter heaven so why not just admit to the truth first of all-instead of fearing it? Because that’s what often happens in the case of pew-warmers; with some even disagreeing with the Church over matters such as abortion. Their hearts have already left-or were never really there anyway. And time spent as Prodigals can sometimes, finally, serve to engender the appreciation and faith that they lacked to begin with.
 
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WillC said:
Yes, I think that perhaps in this situation Christ’s mercy overcomes the ignorance of “A”. Since she didn’t leave from denying Christ, just not having an understanding of Him in the first place.
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And not having an understanding of the full role and import of the Church. To apostatize is essentially to deny Christ, which leaving the Church amounted to back when there weren’t all the “alternatives” within Christianity.
 
I know, for myself, that there was no change… in status, between myself and God as I went, as a youth, from attending Mass regularly to not at all. A real change came when I began to believe, which happened outside the confines of physical Church boundaries even though much of my understanding was aided by and based on what she had taught me, a fact that I came to understand better after experiencing faith, itself, and then coming to understand Church teachings more fully later on.

The Church had represented to me not much more than a voice for a moral code: do’s & don’ts. It would only be later that I recognized both the need for and the possibility of a real change in myself first of all-and that the Church actually taught of this possibility and need. Up until then I was quite unimpressed by any claims that a person must remain in the Church in order to be saved, etc. That mentality is the same for many religions, and few who would find it compelling would dare to seek outside whatever religion they’re born with. But God loves truth-seekers.

There was one primary thing that attracted me back to Christianity, which was the new Covenant prophecy of Jeremiah 31 which was quoted in Hebrews 8 & 10.
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

That passage, alone, meant much to me; it meant that God accomplishes the job that by then I realized I couldn’t do on my own. That’s what really differentiates the Old & New Covenants. And much later I would read in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, addressing that very difference:
1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity: "I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel. . . . I will put my laws into their hands, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."19

I don’t think that’s in the Baltimore Catechism, incidentally, but in any case I had to come to trust the Church, and to agree with her, as per the “sensus fidelium”. God isn’t interested in our turning off our brains as I see it.
 
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I’ve always maintained it was sin. Unbelief, itself, is a sin, an anomaly, an inordinate discordance in creation since man was made for communion with God. We were speaking of culpability-and what, exactly, constitutes outright apostasy.
 
fhansen said:
We were speaking of culpability-and what, exactly, constitutes outright apostasy.
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We were speaking of free passes. But let me ask you a question: what would be the state of people’s soul if said people were to die?
 
I couldn’t speak with certainty about individual cases but I believe, in my own case, that God could in no way have sent me to hell for leaving, understanding what I did at the time. I wouldn’t be much interested in meeting Him anyway if He would. And since then He’s revealed to me an even much greater and more loving and patient God than I could ever have imagined BTW.

But all of that is hindsight anyway at this point. Through a variety of twists and turns I returned to the Church, as He knew I would. And I spend too much time (according to my wife, at least) defending the Church now, incidentally, on a popular non-Catholic Christian forum which I doubt I would do had I not been Protestant for awhile myself. Many Catholics almost view them as the enemy, which isn’t true regardless of their thoughts on the matter, nor is it the position of the Church in these times.
 
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God can save outside the Church through extraordinary means. The Catholic Church is the ordinary means of salvation. Invincible ignorance and willful ignorance are two very different things. Willful ignorance is the case for MANY and it is extremely dangerous. However, we are not God. We must strive to save our own souls and profess the true faith.
 
Nope, just observing the way it often actually works. We’re judged on what we do with what we’re given. I was given much-and I believe I’ve done alright with it-not necessarily enough-I’ll find out. In any case God is the pass-giver, not us.
 
Depending on individual circumstances, yes. The average person of sound mind and normal intelligence is expected to seek and find the truth, and that doesn’t mean just accepting whatever platter is set in front of them. Again, we exist in time and we learn in time, with a variety of (name removed by moderator)ut and experiences affecting us. What is of value today may’ve seemed worthless yesterday. And if a person doesn’t grow and change over time, there’s probably something very wrong. They either are arrested in development or are suffering from pride, a God-complex, etc, that doesn’t allow for error or the ability to admit ignorance. I’m telling you, we just don’t know, or know with much depth, fresh off the boat. We need to be told the truth, but then we go out and test it, and be tested by it, and discern for ourselves it’s veracity.
 
Julius_Caesar said:
Your commentary would have me think otherwise.
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Makes little sense when He’s the one who determines who’s in, and who’s not. Not you or me. He gives us understanding and guidance but we can only take it so far. You seem to think you know, in some black and white sense, while I make it clear that God judges, based on what we do with what we’re given.The Parable of the Talents sheds light on this.
 
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