Clown Mass

[malphono]

The existence of Eastern Christianity down here in the deep South is marginal at best. My experience with Eastern Christianity is limited to attending one Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday in 1976 at an Eastern Orthodox church wherein I cried my eyes out because I recognized just how much we Latin types had lost in less than ten years. …

Rejoice my brothers that your churches do not suffer abuse. Such is not the case with mine.

I hate to say this, but there are also liturgical abuses in the East and Orient. Definitely fewer (in both actual numbers and by percentage) than in the OF, but they do exist. And that’s not hearsay: I’ve had the distinct displeasure to witness some. One that comes to mind is the priest who insisted on gathering everyone “around the table” during the anaphora, despite the bishop’s explicit prohibition. Another is a Latin priest (who was not bi-ritual and who, btw, was technically a monk) who wore only his jockey shorts under his alb. And of course let’s not forget the glass “chalices” that still crop up, again even in the face of the bishop’s explicit prohibition. I could go on with other examples, but suffice it to say oh, yes … such abuses do exist.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Okay, but then I would have to call the EWTN Masses entertaining as well, since who would watch them on TV if they didn’t have some “entertainment value”?

In IN THIS HOUSE OF BREDE, set in fictional Brede Abbey before Vatican II, the Novice Mistress told an incredulous class that the Liturgy entertains us.

 

[malphono]

Okay, but then I would have to call the EWTN Masses entertaining as well, since who would watch them on TV if they didn’t have some “entertainment value”?

Most people who view Mass on EWTN do so because (a) they are shut-ins or otherwise unable to attend in person, or (b) they are folks who get a spiritual lift from experiencing even the OF done in a manner that is more traditional than what they get at their local. They don’t watch for the purpose of being entertained. That’s what Jay Leno is for.

What would make them invalid exactly?

Lack of matter. Lack of form. For example, chips and coke do not valid matter make. For another, the words “this is Jesus” do not valid form make. For a third, how about a “priest” who, though validly ordained, taught, both publicly and privately, that there is no such thing as the Real Presence"?

 

[brotherhrolf]

\I do not want my liturgy to sound or act like a Southern Baptist worship service.\

**I was a Southern Baptist before I got saved.

I’ve never seen anything at an Ordinary Form mass that resembled or sounded like a Southern Baptist service, where the music was generally better.**

Good bishop, your words betray you and you have not attended Mass at my local geographic parish in the midst of Southern Baptist land. Good Lord, bishop, before you got saved???

I grew up in Catholic New Orleans. I went to grad school at LSU in Baton Rouge where most everyone was Catholic. You want to see Southern Baptist? We moved here just outside Baton Rouge some 17 years ago. There is no Catholic Church in my town. The nearest Catholic church is 5 miles away with a mission parish 5 miles east of us.

We ain’t Southern Baptists and we don’t need to act like them. Marriage, good bishop, is a sacrament. Not something to have toddlers dragged up the main aisle in a wagon.
One only needs look at the Dugguar’s on TLC.

I’m not sorry. "I’m OK you’re Ok’ does not work for me

Good bishop, you are out west. I have never been anything towards you but respectful.
I report what I have seen with my own two eyes and ears.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

In IN THIS HOUSE OF BREDE, set in fictional Brede Abbey before Vatican II, the Novice Mistress told an incredulous class that the Liturgy entertains us.

I’m not comfortable with the word “entertain,” but I’ve often thought that one reason priests should not depart from the “script” is because the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a drama, from the opening “In nomine” to the final “Ite, missa est,” but a real life drama, not merely BASED on a story, but THE story Itself. Whereas when one goes to the theater, one must suspend disbelief, in the Holy Sacrifice, one must immerse oneself in it in such a way that disbelief is destroyed. To that end, we shouldn’t screw around with. No one would want to attend Shakespeare and have Othello “wing it.” The Holy Sacrifice is the Holy Sacrifice, but what surrounds It, what adorns It is art and it should be our finest art, the best we can bring to bear. In terms of art, I think a haphazard, sloppy Mass or a Mass where the celebrant or the congregation stamps their own egos all over the liturgy is possibly more offensive to the Holy One than that Crucifix floated in a bottle of urine or “art” of that ilk, because the latter is produced by the radically profane and one expects that of them.

 

[aicirt]

I agree. If I had to deal with something like that, the last thing I would do would be abandon ship. I would stay and be a thorn in his side until he was removed. We need to remember the parable of the unjust judge.

Apparently, the priest in question did have a parishoner who questioned him while the priest was dressed as a pumpkin. The priest is still telling the story because he’s still here but we don’t know what happened to the parishioner. And by the laughter of the audience, and the fact that the church didn’t empty out when Barney showed up, gives you an idea of the degree to which the priest is accepted.

Also consider this should not be the responsibility of the laity. It is the responsibility of the bishop. This should not need a petition. One look at that video should be all that is needed for his suspension. And I don’t mean sending him to another parish. He needs to be educated.

 

[aicirt]

We now have proof through the video on Father Fred Bailey that clown Masses have been committed by Catholic priests.

One poster questioned why this keeps coming up. It will continue until the bishops come out and admit it has happened. It will continue until the bishops take a stand and instruct these priests that they cannot allow certain practices in their Mass. If a stand isn’t taken, Catholics, who visit these sites, will be as shocked as we are and continue to question why something isn’t being done.

The bishops need to do this to separate us from those others, like the Anglicans, whose practices can easily be mistaken as Catholic and whose priests have allowed clown masses. All who are in these videos have committed a sacrilege. Terrible. What kind of training are they getting in seminaries?

Today on the radio a host was talking about a priest who told his congregation that it was okay to shop lift as long as it was from a large corporation. This is an example of poor theology combined with liberalism. The host later clarified that the priest was Anglican and this happened in Britian. The identification needed to occur in the first sentence as the introduction.

 

[redrosetea]

I think the mass inspires us or brings us to a deeper love for God…It also educates us…I can’t say in is entertaining…but it is informative

 

[nunsense]

I have not seen a clown mass but I have seen a number of liturgical abuses in the Mass in both the US and Australia. In one US parish I saw a priest “perform” as a TV game show host during the Mass, basing his homily on the TV game show “Deal, No Deal” and using two of the parishioners as participants. One of the parishioners, a teenage boy, walked away $20 richer! The whole thing made everyone laugh almost hysterically, and it was totally inappropriate for a celebration of the Lord’s sacrifice.

In Australia I saw a priest leave the chalice on the altar and allow parishioners to go up and “help themselves” to the Precious Blood.

These are just two examples of the many abuses I have witnessed over the years.

Although I have attended some very beautiful Novus Ordo Masses, I now prefer to attend the TLM, where I know that I am not going to see a game show host performing antics, or the Lord being treated irreverently. If all of the NO priests would realize that the liturgy is a sacred and solemn event, then I wouldn’t mind attending - but until this happens, it’s strictly TLM for me. Pray for the Church, pray for the liturgy. As Fr Zuhlsdorf says, “Save the Liturgy, Save the World”.

 

[redrosetea]

The only actual abuse I have seen besides the nun cartwheeling, was the host

They used a leavened bread baked by parishioners for communion…We didn’t really get communion because the host must be made without leavening

It went on for a time before the bishop put a stop to it

 

[malphono]

No one would want to attend Shakespeare and have Othello “wing it.” The Holy Sacrifice is the Holy Sacrifice, but what surrounds It, what adorns It is art and it should be our finest art, the best we can bring to bear.

Interesting analogy to which I’ll add a thought:

I’ve heard of dramatic and operatic productions that were exactly that: “modern interpretations” of the original. If the artist (read: author) had intended same to be “interpreted” that’s one thing. I’ve never seen such instructions from the artist (author) and ergo, I can safely presume that such was not the intention. (It’s also interesting that such productions generally get far less than “rave reviews” in most quarters, but I digress.)

If someone wants to make a “modern interpretation” of something else, fine, but please don’t call it by the original title. It’s not. It’s something altogether different.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m not comfortable with the word “entertain,” but I’ve often thought that one reason priests should not depart from the “script” is because the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is a drama, from the opening “In nomine” to the final “Ite, missa est,” but a real life drama, not merely BASED on a story, but THE story Itself. Whereas when one goes to the theater, one must suspend disbelief, in the Holy Sacrifice, one must immerse oneself in it in such a way that disbelief is destroyed. To that end, we shouldn’t screw around with. No one would want to attend Shakespeare and have Othello “wing it.” The Holy Sacrifice is the Holy Sacrifice, but what surrounds It, what adorns It is art and it should be our finest art, the best we can bring to bear. In terms of art, I think a haphazard, sloppy Mass or a Mass where the celebrant or the congregation stamps their own egos all over the liturgy is possibly more offensive to the Holy One than that Crucifix floated in a bottle of urine or “art” of that ilk, because the latter is produced by the radically profane and one expects that of them.

Nicely put.

 

[ProVobis]

The only actual abuse I have seen besides the nun cartwheeling, was the host

Was this a Mass or a fundraiser? Or both?

 

[bpbasilphx]

\They used a leavened bread baked by parishioners for communion…We didn’t really get communion because the host must be made without leavening\

**The Eucharistic matter is leavened all the time in Byzantine and other Eastern traditions–and generally baked by parishioners.

Did you think the early church had electric host-baking ovens or griddles?

After all, the bread has to come from SOMEWHERE.

As a matter of fact there’s a document from Rome saying that if a Latin Priest celebrates the Eucharistic Sacrifice for a Church that usually uses leavened bread, he MUST use leavened bread.
**

 

[genevieve4]

I have heard in this forum, and many others, about the Novus Ordo being celebrated by priests,. etc., dressed up like clowns.

I have been to quite a few Masses in my days (before I left the RC Church), and I have never seen a clown Mass. Not ever. To be clear, I had been going to Mass on a regular basis–weekly, and sometimes daily–since I was six years old (1957) until the time I left the Roman Catholic Church (1987). In 30 years, I have seen N.O. Masses and E.F Masses, and I have never, ever seen one person approach the altar to serve while dressed as a clown, or even in mime makeup (whiteface).

Further more, I have been in several dioceses, including (but not limited to) Chicago, Rockford, Madison, Peoria, Indianapolis, and East Lansing, MI. This is my experience in 30 years, in quite a few different churches. As a result, I can say that I have been to thousands of different Masses, and I have yet to see one clown, or, for that matter a sugar cookie being used for a host, or a balloon release at the moment of Consecration.

In my time as an Orthodox and then Eastern Catholic monk, I have never seen one in the Byzantine Rite either!

I’m an open guy, and I am willing to look, but where are they? Where are all the clown Masses that I heard people decry on this and other boards? Please, I want to know. Churches, dates and times. Preferably followed up with links to photos or videos.

LOL… this is hands-down the funniest opening post I have seen. Well done, sir. I also am wishing to check out a Clown Rite parish sometime.

 

[Brendan]

The only actual abuse I have seen besides the nun cartwheeling, was the host

They used a leavened bread baked by parishioners for communion…We didn’t really get communion because the host must be made without leavening
It went on for a time before the bishop put a stop to it

FYI, that only affects the LICITNESS of the Sacrament. Leavened bread still becomes the Eucharist. In fact, leavened bread is required in the Byzantine Catholic Churches, as I am sure Fr. Brendan can attest.

The use of leavened bread by a Roman Catholic priest, or the use of unleavend bread by a Rutherian priest, would be grounds for disciplinary action by his bishop, but it would not affect the confection of the Sacrament.

In other words, as long as it was wheat, and no additives were used, it really was the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Good bishop, your words betray you and you have not attended Mass at my local geographic parish in the midst of Southern Baptist land. Good Lord, bishop, before you got saved???

I was born and raised in Birmingham, Alabama. Lived in the South most of my life.

I doubt you have anything to tell me about church life in the South that I’ve not already experienced.

And Baton Rouge is one of those places I would help bring the Church in cardboard boxes to.

Christ is born! Glorify Him!

 

[bpbasilphx]

A note about liturgical abuses, major or minor.

As it is written in TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD, people generally see what the look for and hear what they listen for.

 

[Frbrendan]

Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

Okay, now that we have seen that there are abuses in the O.F. (which I never denied. We know that there is a problem. Now we have to find a solution.

If a priest does something inappropriate, then first, go to him and ask for an explanation. If he sees no problem with his actions, then go to the bishop with 2 or 3 witnesses. If the bishop does nothing, then you have only one option open to you that will get results. You pray. Pray, and get the witnesses, and anyone else that knows about the abuse to pray. Pray that God will convict the priest of his abuse. Pray that God will change the heart of the bishop. Finally, it is allowable to pray that the bishop in question is replaced.

I know that this works. Bishop O’Brien was a hissing and a byword in Phoenix. A friend of mine was complaining about him, and I told him that it is okay to pray for the bishop to change his heart or be replaced. He began praying, and he got a whole bunch of people praying too, ond, well, here are the results:

phoenix.about.com/cs/crime/a/bishop.htm

Bishop Olmsted seems to be doing a very good job. He visits the picket/prayer lines around abortion clinics. He allows the E.F. to flourish in our fair city. He even takes part in some of the Eastern things going on. From what I have seen of him, he is one of the good guys.

So, if your bishop is missing the point, pray that God will change his heart, or that God will replace him.

 

[sidbrown]

I have been to quite a few Masses in my days (before I left the RC Church), and I have never seen a clown Mass. … Where are all the clown Masses that I heard people decry on this and other boards? Please, I want to know. Churches, dates and times. Preferably followed up with links to photos or videos.

Here is an example of a puppet Mass celebrated by a retired Catholic bishop.