Co redemptrix dogmatically defined?

[Tomster]

In other words you believe that Christ did not fully atone for your sins, but a creature helped to atone and open the way of heaven and reconcile man with the Father?
yes or no?

Christ could have been born of the Virgin without allowing her to share personally in the work of Redemption, for He is the unique Redeemer, the “one Mediator between God and men,” and He alone could offer a reparation for sin that “abounded more” than the sin. Mary is herself the first-fruits of the Redemption and holds all her glories from the Divine Munificence of Him who deigned to become her child. But Christ has redeemed his mother with so much more ample redemption than other creatures that He has made her actually share in the redemption of other creatures. He has associated her with Himself in all His works, and the principle and absolute causality of the Son does not exclude the universal and subordinate causality of the mother who herself depends upon Him. Let it be repeated: God could have dispensed with any and every aid in the work of our salvation, but in His mercy He has freely ordained that Maryshould share in the amassing of supernatural favors so that He may exalt her who is FULL OF GRACE and at the same time give us a mother full of pity.

 

[Tomster]

Yes, Mary is Mediatrix of All Graces.

What St. Paul says of himself is most perfectly applicable to Our Lady, who suffered in perfect union with Christ throughout her life and especially at the Crucifixion.

What the Blessed Virgin suffered was the birth pangs of the Church. In doing so, she did “fill up those things that were wanting of the sufferings of Christ in her flesh (and soul), for his body, which is the church”.

Mary’s obedience, which involved suffering, was the satisfaction for Eve’s disobedience. But just as Eve’s disobedience did not directly involve the fall of the human race, Mary’s obedience did not directly involve the redemption of the human race. However, it was fitting for Mary to satisfy for the sin of Eve.

who?]

Thank you very much.

 

[thirddec]

Dear GRACE i have no major issue with what you say ; as you can see I worry a great deal about this Co-redemptrix idea as where do you stop; do we as Catholics then look to Peter as a co-redemptrix as after all we believe the church is built on that rock to; and then what about the Pope will he be termed a co-redemtrix too. Should we all who try to lead others to Christ through our christian living then be called co- redemtrix to. Its a great PANDORA’s BOX. As far as my christian belief about Christ being the central and only figure needed in the end ; I agree entirely but I do leave myself open to accepting that I don’t know everything about how Christ and his Father and Holy Spirit are working towards our salvation and what roles they may have assigned to Mary and the Saints. I am honest enough to admit that I see no issue with the Rosary ( I do personally gain help from saying the rosary ) and the Idea of Mary helping in some God ordained way to rescue sinners but I had to agree with another post about being carefull of keeping Marys place as a helper and not the Way herself and have stopped saying certain prayers that place Mary as more than this. I hope we can work together as you are clearly more scripturally versed than me. We need everyone working as one to be a bulkhead against the onslaught we experrience to our Faith in Christ from this world.

Love and Respect

 

[Tomster]

In other words you believe that Christ did not fully atone for your sins, but a creature helped to atone and open the way of heaven and reconcile man with the Father?
yes or no?

Maybe some explanation of terms will be helpful for you.

Merit is the right to a reward due for a morally good action. Merit can be de condigno (condign; adequate), if there is an equal proportion between the good act and its reward, and de congruo (congruous; of convenience) if, in the lack of such proportion, there intervenes some reason of convenience or of benevolence that moves the rewarder.

Christ during His mortal life, merited for Himself the glorification of His human body (His soul already enjoyed the beatific vision), and for the whole human race He merited, especially by His passion and death, all supernatural gifts and life eternal. His merit, like His satisfaction, has an infinite value, and this value is, more probably, according to the rigor of justice (i.e. implies the proper and full concept of justice), because it is the merit of the Word of God Himself, who is the operating subject in His assumed nature. Mary has merited de congruo for us all that Jesus merited de condigno.

Examine your position please!

Protestantism, holding human nature intrinsically corrupted by original sin to the point of the loss of free will, denied all possibility of merit in man. The Council of Trent condemned this error, asserting both free will and, under the influence of grace, merit. And, as we both believe and understand, Mary, our Blessed Mother was, is and continues to be full of grace.

 

[Tomster]

Dear GRACE i have no major issue with what you say ; as you can see I worry a great deal about this Co-redemptrix idea as where do you stop; do we as Catholics then look to Peter as a co-redemptrix as after all we believe the church is built on that rock to; and then what about the Pope will he be termed a co-redemtrix too. Should we all who try to lead others to Christ through our christian living then be called co- redemtrix to. Its a great PANDORA’s BOX. As far as my christian belief about Christ being the central and only figure needed in the end ; I agree entirely but I do leave myself open to accepting that I don’t know everything about how Christ and his Father and Holy Spirit are working towards our salvation and what roles they may have assigned to Mary and the Saints. I am honest enough to admit that I see no issue with the Rosary ( I do personally gain help from saying the rosary ) and the Idea of Mary helping in some God ordained way to rescue sinners but I had to agree with another post about being carefull of keeping Marys place as a helper and not the Way herself and have stopped saying certain prayers that place Mary as more than this. I hope we can work together as you are clearly more scripturally versed than me. We need everyone working as one to be a bulkhead against the onslaught we experrience to our Faith in Christ from this world.

Love and Respect

thirdec,

We are ALL called to be co-redeemers with Christ in a subordinate sense. If the Catholics on this message board would only take the time and read the Encyclical Letter of Pope Pius XII, “The Mystical Body of Christ”. If Catholics would read it and try to understand what the late Holy Father was teaching us there would a lot less confusion regarding the topic at hand.

 

[GraceDK]

Maybe some explanation of terms will be helpful for you.

Merit is the right to a reward due for a morally good action. Merit can be de condigno (condign; adequate), if there is an equal proportion between the good act and its reward, and de congruo (congruous; of convenience) if, in the lack of such proportion, there intervenes some reason of convenience or of benevolence that moves the rewarder.

Christ during His mortal life, merited for Himself the glorification of His human body (His soul already enjoyed the beatific vision), and for the whole human race He merited, especially by His passion and death, all supernatural gifts and life eternal. His merit, like His satisfaction, has an infinite value, and this value is, more probably, according to the rigor of justice (i.e. implies the proper and full concept of justice), because it is the merit of the Word of God Himself, who is the operating subject in His assumed nature. Mary has merited de congruo for us all that Jesus merited de condigno.

Examine your position please!

Protestantism, holding human nature intrinsically corrupted by original sin to the point of the loss of free will, denied all possibility of merit in man. The Council of Trent condemned this error, asserting both free will and, under the influence of grace, merit. And, as we both believe and understand, Mary, our Blessed Mother was, is and continues to be full of grace.

I’ll just be honest with you.
I dont understand your latin. Could you speak English.
Also, I asked you to say yes or no to a simple question which, in my oppinion, I posed in understandable Biblical language. Would you please answer?

Redemption means to buy free. Christ did that for us by means of giving His Body and Blood for our Salvation. He did this act alone and in capacity of being fully human and fully divine.
No one has redeemed me except from Him. Jesus opened the gates of heaven (also for Eve) You can give a whole lot of theological abstract language to explain why you think that Mary, having given birth to Jesus, has a very important role in salvation history, but the moment where you say that she redeemed anyone or helped redeem you have lost me. Christ alone redeemes.

 

[GraceDK]

Christ could have been born of the Virgin without allowing her to share personally in the work of Redemption, for He is the unique Redeemer, the “one Mediator between God and men,” and He alone could offer a reparation for sin that “abounded more” than the sin. Mary is herself the first-fruits of the Redemption and holds all her glories from the Divine Munificence of Him who deigned to become her child. But Christ has redeemed his mother with so much more ample redemption than other creatures that He has made her actually share in the redemption of other creatures. He has associated her with Himself in all His works, and the principle and absolute causality of the Son does not exclude the universal and subordinate causality of the mother who herself depends upon Him. Let it be repeated: God could have dispensed with any and every aid in the work of our salvation, but in His mercy He has freely ordained that Maryshould share in the amassing of supernatural favors so that He may exalt her who is FULL OF GRACE and at the same time give us a mother full of pity.

God wants us to cooperate with Him, however, He is the sole source of life and grace. He let’s us help our brothers and sisters though our prayers, or as in the case with the blessed Virgin, He is flesh of her flesh - a huge privilege for her to be sure. he saved her and took initiative. She was humble and good yes, but not our saviour or redeemer in any biblical sense of the word.

The Blessed Virgin did not die on the cross. This is the whole point! Even if she did, it would not have been a salvific or redeeming act… there would have been no atonement of sins or satisfaction made even if she had. God is the only one who can atone and make satisfaction for sins and thus reconcile us with the Father and open the gates of heaven. There is no other name by which we can be saved, than Jesus.

Now I don’t think we can get further with this discussion.
I agree with the doctrines of the Church, however I very much disagree with her use of words and expressions at times, especially concerning Mary. It causes scandal and confusion, of which we have enough proof on this thread alone.

 

[sweetchuck]

This is the whole point of the doctrine being dogmatically defined: Many Catholics do not have the slightest clue about the nature of redemption.

It is Catholic doctrine that humanity is called to participate in the one redemption of Christ. Mary is his associate in the work of redemption. She works with him and that is important for our salvation. Pius X instructs us in the encyclical Ad Diem Illum:

We are then, it will be seen, very far from attributing to the Mother of God a productive power of grace–a power which belongs to God alone. Yet, since Mary carries it over all in holiness and union with Jesus Christ, and has been associated by Jesus Christ in the work of redemption, she merits for us de congruo, in the language of theologians, what Jesus Christ merits for us de condigno, and she is the supreme Minister of the distribution of graces. Jesus “sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high” (Hebrews i. 3.). Mary sitteth at the right hand of her Son–a refuge so secure and a help so trusty against all dangers that we have nothing to fear or to despair of under her guidance, her patronage, her protection. (Pius IX, in Bull Ineffabilis).
De congruo: It is in some way fitting that Mary’s action be rewarded by the redemption of mankind, but this gift of redemption surpasses the worth of her action; De condigno: Christ’s action is by itself worthy to be rewarded by the redemption of all men, and in fact far surpasses what was necessary to accomplish that redemption with complete justice.]

Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P., gives a detailed theological explanation of de congruo/de condigno in his Mother of the Savior for those who are interested in learning more (pp. 178-196). While there is still valid argumentation concerning the “Co-redemptrix” term, no Catholic may deny Mary’s participation in the redemption as such; it is Church doctrine.

 

[Ignatius]

Redemption means to buy free. Christ did that for us by means of giving His Body and Blood for our Salvation. He did this act alone and in capacity of being fully human and fully divine.

That is exactly Church Doctrine. These problematic (in English) terms cause a great deal of harm, are not official Church teachings, and I will be glad when The Church has them completely suppressed.

Blessed Virgin Mary, beloved mother, pray for the Church to be given the Godly wisdom to suppress these false titles which cause so many to be turned away to Out Lords Holy Church.

Lord God, Heavenly Father, let this prayer be heard in your presence for it is offered through Christ our Lord.

 

[Abu]

sweetchuck
no Catholic may deny Mary’s participation in the redemption as such; it is Church doctrine.

Absolutely. That is why the Church teaches that Mary is Mediatrix of all graces.

As Karl Keating explains:
“First, she gave the world its Redeemer, the source of all graces. She freely cooperated with God’s plan (Lk 1:38: ‘Be it done to me according to thy word’), and, as St Thomas wrote, at the Annunciation, at the key moment for our race, she represented the whole of humanity. [Summa theologiae III, 30, I.]

“Second, Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces because of her intercession for us in heaven. What this means is that no grace accrues to us without her intercession. We are not to suppose that we are obliged to ask for all graces through her or that her intercession is intrinsically necessary for the application of graces. Instead, through God’s will, grace is not conferred on anyone without Mary’s cooperation.”

It is absurd to feel that the Church has erred in Her doctrine.

Tomster
We are ALL called to be co-redeemers with Christ in a subordinate sense.

Precisely. St Paul teaches that “supplication, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men (1 Tim 2:1)…for (because) there is one mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim 2:5). “In other words, Christ wants all of us doing our part with Him in the redeeming activity that must go on. We are all called to be coredeemers. To give that title, as the Church occasionally has, to His Mother, is not to make her level with Him, but to see her as the holiest of all those He has redeemed.” [Frank Sheed, *Christ In Eclipse, p 108].

Further, Jesus redeemed mankind, but each of us needs to cooperate to be saved. It is St. Paul, who wrote: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience, as Christ was acting *for *the whole human race, not as a substitute. (Op cit. p 105-6)

 

[GraceDK]

Absolutely. That is why the Church teaches that Mary is Mediatrix of all graces.

“Second, Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces because of her intercession for us in heaven. What this means is that no grace accrues to us without her intercession. We are not to suppose that we are obliged to ask for all graces through her or that her intercession is intrinsically necessary for the application of graces. Instead, through God’s will, grace is not conferred on anyone without Mary’s cooperation.”

)

This I simply don’t believe. Sorry, but I pray to Jesus, to the Holy Spirit and to God the Father and they give me grace and gifts without being bound by any intercession of any creature, period.
I don’t know where you get this stuff.
Jesus let himself be born of the woman Mariam and thus gave her great honour and privilege, and as such, if you insist on complicating things you can say that she is a door to grace for us, only because she gave birth to the One who alone is Giver of grace. But again I don’t like such language, even if it can be explained, because it complicated things and religious language should be kept simple and clear so as not to lead astray.

Your example is simply taking things way too far. I absolutely don’t believe that I cannot pray for a favour from Jesus without Him having to go and ask His mother if she agrees to give it to me… Its fully absurd and stand to your own account. Please don’t ask others to believe in such things.

 

[thirddec]

Just 2 points

1. Christ atoned for our sins but we need to be still willing to follow Christ; there is no compulsion and obviously there are many evils and temptations that try to prevent us from the salvation Christ offer. Mary is a spiritual help for all of us to look to Christ for salvation.
   As Catholics we don’t believe the Saints and Mary are some decorative flowers sitting around singing but rather busy purified souls been charged by God to help Christ as he redeems the World.
2. If we are all co-redeemers then why bother giving Mary the Title?

So just because I have Issues with giving a confusing title with no obvious reason to Mary does not mean I have to diminish the special Role God has ordained for her now in Heaven commensurate with the special role he had for her on earth.

Love and Respect

 

[FCEGM]

This I simply don’t believe. Sorry, but I pray to Jesus, to the Holy Spirit and to God the Father and they give me grace and gifts without being bound by any intercession of any creature, period.
I don’t know where you get this stuff.
Jesus let himself be born of the woman Mariam and thus gave her great honour and privilege, and as such, if you insist on complicating things you can say that she is a door to grace for us, only because she gave birth to the One who alone is Giver of grace. But again I don’t like such language, even if it can be explained, because it complicated things and religious language should be kept simple and clear so as not to lead astray.

Your example is simply taking things way too far. I absolutely don’t believe that I cannot pray for a favour from Jesus without Him having to go and ask His mother if she agrees to give it to me… Its fully absurd and stand to your own account. Please don’t ask others to believe in such things.

It’s the Church you are disagreeing with, then, Grace:

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

Further, your understanding is not how it “works”. Mary as Mediatrix of all Graces acts by God’s grace in the same was as she did in being the Mother of God when Jesus came to us through her womb; now all graces that Christ bestows flow through her. He doesn’t have to ask her for permission - that was already done in her “yes” to Gabriel’s message - it is the “economy” of heaven. IOW, because she said “yes” Him, God, Who created Mary to be the perfect Mother for His Incarnate Son and to be the Mother of all mankind, continues with His choice of Mary in bringing about the birth of her Son in us through the power of the Holy Spirit, her Spouse. Mary is the immaculate window through which the rays of the Son shine forth on the soul.

 

[GraceDK]

FCEGM; It’s the Church you are disagreeing with, then, Grace:

GraceDK: Okay, so what do you think I should do about it? I will continue to tell people what I believe is the Biblical teaching… I have studied this for years now and still what people say here makes little sense to me. It seems to me like you give Mary divine attributes, and you may choose to do that, but I will continue to believe this is a dangerous path.
I shall however continue to believe that you are posting your oppinions more in your own language and for that reason I cannot agree with you. You can post for me some binding doctrines from the Church which say what you say… then we can get on with it: I can disagree and you can say anathema to me and judge me to hell on the basis of a secondary person and creature… The sad thing is I used to pray many rosaries and felt great about it, but the more I found out the extreme titles and expressions for Mary in the Church the more I felt alienated from the whole thing.

Further, your understanding is not how it “works”. Mary as Mediatrix of all Graces acts by God’s grace in the same was as she did in being the Mother of God when Jesus came to us through her womb; now all graces that Christ bestows flow through her. He doesn’t have to ask her for permission - that was already done in her “yes” to Gabriel’s message - it is the “economy” of heaven. IOW, because she said “yes” Him, God, Who created Mary to be the perfect Mother for His Incarnate Son and to be the Mother of all mankind, continues with His choice of Mary in bringing about the birth of her Son in us through the power of the Holy Spirit, her Spouse. Mary is the immaculate window through which the rays of the Son shine forth on the soul.

Sorry, But Mary doesn’t bring forth Christ in me. The Holy Spirit does

 

[thirddec]

Dear GRACE
The sad thing is I used to pray many rosaries and felt great about it, but the more I found out the extreme titles and expressions for Mary in the Church the more I felt alienated from the whole thing.

You said the above any you are correct it is a SAD THING. I have been considering my whole attitude to Mary in the light of the present debates and as far as im concerned there is nothing at all wrong in saying the Rosary and lots of merit for it. The position I take now is I will avoid prayers to Mary that causes conflict in my mind ( im not saying they are wrong but if they cause me to be distracted from my attempts to maintain a prayerfull attitude I feel better to avoid ) due to this current conflict in the church which could even be the work of the devil to try to divide the church using the one of the Saints he hates above the rest Mary.

this is the testiment of Lucia from Fatima

**The Child Jesus again appeared to Lucia in February 1926 to encourage her to propagate this devotion, and additionally on the night of 29-30 May 1930; as she was praying before the Blessed Sacrament, she received an interior locution explaining why it was necessary to have a communion of reparation on five Saturdays.

She explained later that she had been given to understand that this related to the five main types of blasphemies and offences committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary: that is against the Immaculate Conception; against Mary’s Virginity; against her Divine Maternity and her spiritual motherhood of mankind; for the offences of those who encourage in the hearts of children indifference, contempt and even hatred of her, and finally as reparation for those who outrage her in her holy images**.

Ps spiritual motherhood of mankind does not automatically lead to co-redemtrix but does put her in special position as I said before comparable to her role on earth as the mother of Christ. She still remains the mother of the Body Christ on earth his Church which he wants to include all of mankind. How she fullfils this and carrys out this Spiritual role by the will of the Almighty I am unable to know for sure; but my heart tells me to treat her as a mother who will go to any length to bring me to salvation in Christ.I wonder what was meant by outrage her in her holy images, im sure it means a little more than drawing moustaches or the like on with markers. I’m sure the outrages would have to have some blasphemous element more than defacement. I have my own ideas but dont want to get into that here.

I’m no holy joe if anything i’m quite the opposite having been a great sinner and lived outside the Church for 30 years but im convinced that the Rosarys said as a family when I was young and the Rosary’s I say now that keep me strong. They have been making me explore the mysterys deeper and make me go deeper into my faith and scripture and ultimately I appreciate Christ more and more.

I would ask you to return to the practice of the Rosary and dont allow the fact that others may or may not be going overboard to take you away from it. Listen to your heart on this one.

LOVE and RESPECT

 

[TrueLight]

Dear GRACE
The sad thing is I used to pray many rosaries and felt great about it, but the more I found out the extreme titles and expressions for Mary in the Church the more I felt alienated from the whole thing.

You quoted the above any you are correct it is a SAD THING. I have been considering my whole attitude to Mary in the light of the present debates and as far as im concerned there is nothing at all wrong in saying the Rosary and lots of merit for it. The position I take now is I will avoid prayers to Mary that causes conflict in my mind ( im not saying they are wrong but if they cause me to be distracted from my attempts to maintain a prayerfull attitude I feel better to avoid ) due to this current conflict in the church which could even be the work of the devil to try to divide the church using the one of the Saints he hates above the rest Mary.

this is the testiment of Lucia from Fatima

**The Child Jesus again appeared to Lucia in February 1926 to encourage her to propagate this devotion, and additionally on the night of 29-30 May 1930; as she was praying before the Blessed Sacrament, she received an interior locution explaining why it was necessary to have a communion of reparation on five Saturdays.

She explained later that she had been given to understand that this related to the five main types of blasphemies and offences committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary: that is against the Immaculate Conception; against Mary’s Virginity; against her Divine Maternity and her spiritual motherhood of mankind; for the offences of those who encourage in the hearts of children indifference, contempt and even hatred of her, and finally as reparation for those who outrage her in her holy images**.

LOVE and RESPECT

One blasphemes against God.

 

[thirddec]

While etymologically blasphemy may denote the derogation of the honour due to a creature as well as of that belonging to God, in its strict acceptation it is used only in the latter sense. Hence it has been defined by Francisco Suárez as "any word of malediction, reproach, or contumely pronounced against God: (De Relig., tract. iii, lib. I, cap. iv, n. 1). It is to be noted that according to the definition (1) blasphemy is set down as a word, for ordinarily it is expressed in speech, though it may be committed in thought or in act. Being primarily a sin of the tongue, it will be seen to be opposed directly to the religious act of praising God. (2) It is said to be against God, though this may be only mediately, as when the contumelious word is spoken of the saints or of sacred things, because of the relationship they sustain to God and His service.

newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm

im obviously not learned on the matter so i will let the catholic encylopedia speak for me.

Love and Respect

 

[GraceDK]

Dear GRACE
The sad thing is I used to pray many rosaries and felt great about it, but the more I found out the extreme titles and expressions for Mary in the Church the more I felt alienated from the whole thing.

You said the above any you are correct it is a SAD THING. I have been considering my whole attitude to Mary in the light of the present debates and as far as im concerned there is nothing at all wrong in saying the Rosary and lots of merit for it. The position I take now is I will avoid prayers to Mary that causes conflict in my mind ( im not saying they are wrong but if they cause me to be distracted from my attempts to maintain a prayerfull attitude I feel better to avoid ) due to this current conflict in the church which could even be the work of the devil to try to divide the church using the one of the Saints he hates above the rest Mary.

this is the testiment of Lucia from Fatima

**The Child Jesus again appeared to Lucia in February 1926 to encourage her to propagate this devotion, and additionally on the night of 29-30 May 1930; as she was praying before the Blessed Sacrament, she received an interior locution explaining why it was necessary to have a communion of reparation on five Saturdays.

She explained later that she had been given to understand that this related to the five main types of blasphemies and offences committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary: that is against the Immaculate Conception; against Mary’s Virginity; against her Divine Maternity and her spiritual motherhood of mankind; for the offences of those who encourage in the hearts of children indifference, contempt and even hatred of her, and finally as reparation for those who outrage her in her holy images**.

Ps spiritual motherhood of mankind does not automatically lead to co-redemtrix but does put her in special position as I said before comparable to her role on earth as the mother of Christ. She still remains the mother of the Body Christ on earth his Church which he wants to include all of mankind. How she fullfils this and carrys out this Spiritual role by the will of the Almighty I am unable to know for sure; but my heart tells me to treat her as a mother who will go to any length to bring me to salvation in Christ.I wonder what was meant by outrage her in her holy images, im sure it means a little more than drawing moustaches or the like on with markers. I’m sure the outrages would have to have some blasphemous element more than defacement. I have my own ideas but dont want to get into that here.

I’m no holy joe if anything i’m quite the opposite having been a great sinner and lived outside the Church for 30 years but im convinced that the Rosarys said as a family when I was young and the Rosary’s I say now that keep me strong. They have been making me explore the mysterys deeper and make me go deeper into my faith and scripture and ultimately I appreciate Christ more and more.

I would ask you to return to the practice of the Rosary and dont allow the fact that others may or may not be going overboard to take you away from it. Listen to your heart on this one.

LOVE and RESPECT

I never stopped praying the rosary. I know what I believe and what I dont.
You say: “but my heart tells me to treat her as a mother who will go to any length to bring me to salvation in Christ.”
This I find way over the top. Who told you that Mary brings you to salvation. She does indeed not. God does.

About the Fatima apparitions, I dont know much about them… but what you quote… well to me it doesn’t seem the humble mother of Jesus would ever put herself in the center and talk about sins against her as if they mattered so much to our salvation (which I don’t believe they do. We are to honour her for sure but to speak of blasphemy for those who dont care or disagree with these titles… … something seems just too far removed from the Gospels about such strange sentences…
Thats why I urge you to read the New Testament.

 

[Abu]

FCEGM
now all graces that Christ bestows flow through her. He doesn’t have to ask her for permission - that was already done in her “yes” to Gabriel’s message - it is the “economy” of heaven.

Precisely.

The attitude of debunking the doctrine of the Church on Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, or any other doctrine, is symptomatic of those who place their feelings, views, desires and prejudices above Christ and His Church. It is most unscriptural:

The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Tim 3:16). St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.” (Eph 3:10). The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).

St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).

To overcome the prejudice, a humble obedience to Christ through His Church is the answer. Vatican II in Lumen Gentium, 62, (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught. The Council would (and could) not have so done if this was merely the expression of personal opinions by these Popes. The Council teaches that she was eternally united with Jesus in the decree for the Incarnation, and thus from eternity before time began and through all eternity (59). There are twelve Papal Texts speaking of Mary as the Mediatrix of All Graces. [See Fr William G Most,*Our Father’s Plan, 1988, Trinity Communications, p 92-93. ]

Since even a non-infallible doctrine requires the “loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium *25, no dissent may be allowed. However Fr William G Most affirms: “These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.” [See post #18 and http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm ]. This infallibility would fall under the universality of the present.

The gravity of dissent is emphasised by Pope John Paul II:
“It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.” [Meeting with US Bishops at Our Lady Queen of Angels Minor Seminary, Los Angeles, Sept 16, 1987].

 

[StrawberryJam]

Logical fallacy Abu. No one is debunking the doctrine of the Church on Mary as Mediatrix of all graces. The thread title is clear.

Re: Co redemptrix dogmatically defined?

The only answer to this question is that this is not dogma now.

Precisely.

The attitude of debunking the doctrine of the Church on Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, or any other doctrine, is symptomatic of those who place their feelings, views, desires and prejudices above Christ and His Church. It is most unscriptural:

The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth” (1 Tim 3:16). St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.” (Eph 3:10). The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ!

St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).

St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).

To overcome the prejudice, a humble obedience to Christ through His Church is the answer. Vatican II in Lumen Gentium, 62, (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church) taught that Mary is the Mediatrix of All Graces by the footnote which gave the teaching of Leo XIII, St Pius X, and Pius XII, all of whom so taught. The Council would (and could) not have so done if this was merely the expression of personal opinions by these Popes. The Council teaches that she was eternally united with Jesus in the decree for the Incarnation, and thus from eternity before time began and through all eternity (59). There are twelve Papal Texts speaking of Mary as the Mediatrix of All Graces. [See Fr William G Most,*Our Father’s Plan

, 1988, Trinity Communications, p 92-93. ]

Since even a non-infallible doctrine requires the “loyal submission of the will and intellect”, Vatican II, *Lumen Gentium *25, no dissent may be allowed. However Fr William G Most affirms: “These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.” [See post #18 and http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm ]. This infallibility would fall under the universality of the present.

The gravity of dissent is emphasised by Pope John Paul II:
“It is sometimes claimed that dissent from the Magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching office of the bishops of the United States and elsewhere.” [Meeting with US Bishops at Our Lady Queen of Angels Minor Seminary, Los Angeles, Sept 16, 1987].