Collapse of ‘Secular West’ good for the Church?

[TevereNauta]

Another excellent point Contra, and prescient to boot as I watch the news right now with exponentially growing financial unease in the USA and fairly serious riots in London. So, much like the ancient monks of Ireland preserved Christianity from the ravages of the Germanic Barbarians, Orders in Africa and Asia might preserve our faith from the modern day Cultural Barbarians? Still, I hope Rome shall endure, that is to say the Papacy will not be forced to flee to Accra. Will it be sacked again I wonder?

God help the West: it’s money, soul, and cities are burning!

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am convinced that the church will not only survive, but get stronger. However, I don’t think that will happen in the western world. Africa and parts of Asia will become the centres of Christendom, while the West will sink into conflict and paganism. I think we are there already, the way things are going.

I don’t believe it. Last year the #1 ethnic migrants to Canada are Filipinos. In the US it has always been Latinos, who in 30-40 years will be the dominant ethnic group in the US. Both these ethnic groups are predominantly Catholics. Here in Greater Vancouver, the parishes are 60-80% Filipino. God has his ways

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Still, I hope Rome shall endure, that is to say the Papacy will not be forced to flee to Accra. Will it be sacked again I wonder?

Good question. My guess is that it will remain in Rome, tolerated by secularists and bureaucrats of some sort of union, and not taken very seriously. Like a little island of calm and order in the sea of insanity

 

[TevereNauta]

Indeed, the secularists and bureaucrats…very mild, that lot. Rather than openly ‘Sack’ Rome I think they would love, if fact, I know they would love turning the Vatican into a secular “World Heritage Site” or some such. No religious affiliation. Time will tell, as they say—I hope the Swiss Guard doesn’t have to prove themselves once more. But could we have a repeat of Avignon…in Accra, I wonder?

Hah, Constantine, funny you mention that. I agree with you completely, personally…but check out the Catholic section of CAF news forum for a rather heated debate on how immigrating Latinos are not as Catholic as you might imagine. I tried making your exact points, only to be refuted with statistics—by an Evangelical, (personally, I’d day New Age-ish) poll group, Barna—that Latinos in the U.S. are quickly becoming Protestant and non-practicing. I say tosh, of course, but there are quite a few vigorous arguments to the contrary.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I don’t believe it. Last year the #1 ethnic migrants to Canada are Filipinos. In the US it has always been Latinos, who in 30-40 years will be the dominant ethnic group in the US. Both these ethnic groups are predominantly Catholics. Here in Greater Vancouver, the parishes are 60-80% Filipino. God has his ways

You think it’s a good thing that Latinos will become the dominant ethnic group in the US, and Filipinos in certain parts of Canada?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Indeed, the secularists and bureaucrats…very mild, that lot. Rather than openly ‘Sack’ Rome I think they would love, if fact, I know they would love turning the Vatican into a secular “World Heritage Site” or some such. No religious affiliation. Time will tell, as they say—I hope the Swiss Guard doesn’t have to prove themselves once more. But could we have a repeat of Avignon…in Accra, I wonder?

Hah, Constantine, funny you mention that. I agree with you completely, personally…but check out the Catholic section of CAF news forum for a rather heated debate on how immigrating Latinos are not as Catholic as you might imagine. I tried making your exact points, only to be refuted with statistics—by an Evangelical, (personally, I’d day New Age-ish) poll group, Barna—that Latinos in the U.S. are quickly becoming Protestant and non-practicing. I say tosh, of course, but there are quite a few vigorous arguments to the contrary.

The majority of Latino Catholics are only Cultural Catholics. They perform basic ceremonies, but they don’t really care about Catholicism. Which is why they have among the highest illegitimacy rates in America, for instance.

If you think they are the future for Catholicism, I think (respectfully) that you are mistaken. There is nothing positive about the Hispanicization of the United States.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Great points gentlemen!

Fabius, amen! I’d even argue there is a precedence, of sorts, for the abandonment vis-à-vis buonismo in the rejection of the early Popes to be ‘rubber-stampers’ of the Byzantine emperor. Instead of just bowing before imperial edicts from Constantinople the Popes slowly but surely had to go a bit martial. Indeed, during the so-called Dark Ages, more than one Pope had to take up the sword to defend the Cross, on one occasion at least from the Saracens—Muslims. My take on it would be when the Church needs another Gregory VII and/or Urban II not to worry…the Lord will give us this in good time. I digress. My point is precisely that a revitalization, of the type you did describe, did take place in the Church, but over centuries. It was not a straight road from Leo to Great to Gregory the Great to Gregory VII and Urban II…but it was a highway, nonetheless.

Well after the fall of Rome either the popes engaged in politics or became overrun. It was simple as that. The situation necessitated the Church taking charge in the midst of such a great power vacuum.

In many ways it’s a miracle that the Papacy still exists. Rome had been subjected to so many attacks from Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Muslims, etc - and yet the Papacy survived.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Hah, Constantine, funny you mention that. I agree with you completely, personally…but check out the Catholic section of CAF news forum for a rather heated debate on how immigrating Latinos are not as Catholic as you might imagine. I tried making your exact points, only to be refuted with statistics—by an Evangelical, (personally, I’d day New Age-ish) poll group, Barna—that Latinos in the U.S. are quickly becoming Protestant and non-practicing. I say tosh, of course, but there are quite a few vigorous arguments to the contrary.

I too am saddened by this fact because the Protestant Churches here in Canada are also filled up by Filipino immigrants. But we’re still holding up the numbers in the Catholic parishes in the major urban areas. Sometimes Protestants are better than atheists, although other times you can’t tell the difference but I still would prefer them than atheists.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You think it’s a good thing that Latinos will become the dominant ethnic group in the US, and Filipinos in certain parts of Canada?

Chinese and Indians outnumber us still, but in places like Manitoba, there are a lot. Although Winnipeg is the seat of Ukrainian Catholicism in Canada, I don’t want my Roman Catholic compatriots to dominate there too much

Although when it comes to vocations, most of the ordained priests here in the Archdiocese of Vancouver in the last few years have been of Chinese descent.

 

[TevereNauta]

The Papacy survived—will survive—because the hand of God is on the institution, as Christ himself promised. And TBH I know many, many Latinos, Hispanic folks, who are far more than cultural Catholics. That is, IMO, just a gross a stereotype as Hispanics are ‘leaving in droves’ to become Protestant.

But, to move the thread back on track, one event which would counteract the trend of Protestantism would, of course, be the collapse of the Secular West to which Protestantism is inextricably linked. After all Protestantism grew out of a secularist vacuum at a time when the Church was quite worldly and in many respects had lapsed from Her duties. As I stated in the OP, the collapse of the Secular West would be good for the Church in that, as in Antique Rome, during times of crisis the many Christian-light brands will simply cease as they did before, with some help from the Magisterium, e.g. Gnostics and Arians. How many Vandals practice Arianism in 2011? None. How many Catholics are there? Largest Christian denomination on earth.

Hence my reason for posting, to point out the silver lining. When all is said and done over the next few centuries, when the Secular West has imploded on itself by means of its own Godlessness and deviancy, it will be the Catholic Church that still stands and it will, at least IMHO, fill the vacuum with grace and Christian teaching. And as Contra pointed out before, Catholic missionaries may well travel from the new Christian heartlands of Africa and Asia to preach the Gospel in the barbarous West…which it is quickly becoming.

 

[dmorgan]

try this take on current and possible future models. I find it plausible:

catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/10/catholic-prophecy-last-days-end-times.html

The USA will fail because the underpinning of our society is the wealth of a few. Capitalism is anathema to Catholicism and always will be. The transitions we are seeing today are just the playing out of the remains of WW II. After '46 the US was the dominant manufacturer in the world and had the cash to expand. A decade ago the vanquished from WW II had regained parity with the US. Now all are lagging behind Communist China and India. As the Islamist continue to organize and radicalize their population a growing flux will begin to come to a head between the fanatical Muslims and the remains of Christiandom. The Chinese will sell weapons to both while hedging support for the one who buys the most of their stuff. India will be lost to Pakistan (Islamic state). Rome will try to rise above the fray and preach peace, as it should. We need not worry to much. We know who wins!!! It will be a time of intense suffering and pain, but we were never promised anything less.

The Gospel According to Saint Mathew, Chapter 24

[6] And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: [8] Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. [9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. [10] And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.

[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. [12] And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. [13] But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

[16] Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains: [17] And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat. [19] And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days. [20] But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath.

[21] For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. [22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. [23] Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. [24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

Scripture quote from: drbo.org/index.htm

Pax

 

[FabiusMaximus]

try this take on current and possible future models. I find it plausible:

catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/10/catholic-prophecy-last-days-end-times.html

The USA will fail because the underpinning of our society is the wealth of a few. Capitalism is anathema to Catholicism and always will be. The transitions we are seeing today are just the playing out of the remains of WW II. After '46 the US was the dominant manufacturer in the world and had the cash to expand. A decade ago the vanquished from WW II had regained parity with the US. Now all are lagging behind Communist China and India. As the Islamist continue to organize and radicalize their population a growing flux will begin to come to a head between the fanatical Muslims and the remains of Christiandom. The Chinese will sell weapons to both while hedging support for the one who buys the most of their stuff. India will be lost to Pakistan (Islamic state). Rome will try to rise above the fray and preach peace, as it should. We need not worry to much. We know who wins!!! It will be a time of intense suffering and pain, but we were never promised anything less.

The Gospel According to Saint Mathew, Chapter 24

[6] And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: [8] Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. [9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. [10] And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.

[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. [12] And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. [13] But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.

[16] Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains: [17] And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat. [19] And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days. [20] But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath.

[21] For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. [22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. [23] Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. [24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.

Scripture quote from: drbo.org/index.htm

Pax

Catholic monks essentially introduced capitalism and you say it’s anti-Catholic? How?

 

[dmorgan]

Catholic monks essentially introduced capitalism and you say it’s anti-Catholic? How?

Capitalism as developed and exploited in western Europe and the US is a system of enriching the few at the expense of the masses. The current capitalistic system is just as destructive as any Marxist or communist regime has ever been. When wealth is the bar to which all things are measured, wealth becomes god. Morality and Christian Virtues are suppressed and secular values are espoused. Greed and gain become the measuring sticks, and situational ethics become standard. What ever is good for the bottom line becomes good for all. Cotton fields in the south, sweat shops in the Bronx, Irish and Chinese immigrant camps on the railroads, coal miners in West Virginia and Kentucky, Textile workers in the south, children in Malaysian shoe factories, Chinese workers in factories. And we support these actions with every dollar we spend.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens_en.html

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13rerum.htm

papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11QUADR.HTM

My apologies to the OP for this digression.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

DMorgan, I don’t know where you learned your history, but your Marxist slant of American economic and social history and of our Catholic faith is what will be the ruination of what we have in this country. I am neither a debater nor a religious scholar, but I am a historian, and have heard your pseudo-intellectual arguments by college students and other self styled intellectuals for over 60 years.
Yes there have been abuses in Western society in the past, but in the US we have overcome most of these. In today’s american society, poverty is mainly the result of individuals who lack education which is largely due to a lack of family cohesion. Many of these people have no work ethic and have developed a dependance on public support.
It is obvious that you have not lived in any other country that does not have the liberties and personal freedoms that have been purchased for all of us with the blood of those who have fought for our country.
Yes, we have poverty and other social ills in our country, but bear in mind that the poorest American is quite wealthy when compared to the poor of other countries-and you do not have to go to South America or Asia for a comparison. Just look at the poor in many parts of Europe. No one starves to death in the USA except for the mentally disabled who have fallen through the cracks of our society and Children who are harmed by criminally negligent parents.
I only can pray that you are not in the teaching profession corrupting young people as someone has done to you!

 

[Paxvobis]

Hmm…

While I think that while the collapse of the secular west would be good for the Church for the reasons which you have suggested, it would for un-related be bad for the everyday life of the common man. For this reason, I don’t welcome it although I do understand that it is inevitable. After all, the United States is the best place for the common man to live and work in. We have a high standard of living and freedoms unmatched in many other countries.

Capitalism as developed and exploited in western Europe and the US is a system of enriching the few at the expense of the masses. The current capitalistic system is just as destructive as any Marxist or communist regime has ever been. When wealth is the bar to which all things are measured, wealth becomes god. Morality and Christian Virtues are suppressed and secular values are espoused. Greed and gain become the measuring sticks, and situational ethics become standard. What ever is good for the bottom line becomes good for all. Cotton fields in the south, sweat shops in the Bronx, Irish and Chinese immigrant camps on the railroads, coal miners in West Virginia and Kentucky, Textile workers in the south, children in Malaysian shoe factories, Chinese workers in factories. And we support these actions with every dollar we spend.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens_en.html

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13rerum.htm

papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11QUADR.HTM

dmorgan, as someone who has read these encyclicals you should know that the Church’s view of capitalism is a little nuanced than that. It is not as supportive of Capitalism as those on the Right claim (Don’t get your Catholic catechesis from Fox News) and it’s not as against Capitalism as those on the Left claim (Similarly, don’t get your catechesis from MSNBC).

The Church’s view of Capitalism was, I think, best summed up by Pope John Paul II:

f by “capitalism” is meant an economic system which recognizes the fundamental and positive role of business, the market, private property and the resulting responsibility for the means of production, as well as free human creativity in the economic sector, then the answer is certainly in the affirmative, even though it would perhaps be more appropriate to speak of a “business economy”, “market economy” or simply “free economy”. But if by “capitalism” is meant a system in which freedom in the economic sector is not circumscribed within a strong juridical framework which places it at the service of human freedom in its totality, and which sees it as a particular aspect of that freedom, the core of which is ethical and religious, then the reply is certainly negative.

So what does this mean? The Church is most certainly against Laissez-Faire Capitalism - that which seeks to completely eliminate government from the regulation of the economy. However, the Church is for the principals of market economy. I would say that capitalism as it was practiced in the United States before many of our New Deal economic regulations were removed would most certainly fit within the Church’s positive deceleration regarding capitalism. There is, most certainly, a danger in going to far with government regulation in the economy. There is a balancing act involved because you don’t want the government’s economic policies to be too restrictive (socialism, which the Church speaks out against) or too lax (the a fore condemned laissez-faire).

Unfortunately, in today’s political climate many people try to take the Church’s teachings on this matter and twist them to fit their pre-concieved political notions. In some quarters of the Left, we see the argument that the Church teaches that Capitalism is sinful (see Capitalism: A Love Story). On the Right, we see the argument that increased government regulation is Socialism, which the Church decries as sinful (We hear this on shows like The O’Rilley Factor). If only people would actually care what the Church teaches and not stretch and bend it towards their own politics, maybe we could get the obfuscation of politicians who say it’s okay to be a Catholic and to still support abortion, contraception, homosexual marriage, et cetera (And I’m not accusing you of doing that dmorgan).

 

[MontChevalier]

That ignores that the current crop of Westerners would not be as willing to fight in crusades as their great(*10)-grandfathers were.

The church, and the general society, have no eternal perspective anymore. I’d expect a large number to become Muslim to keep their heads on their bodies. In some cases, entire countries might go over.

Also, in the 1600s, Protestant and Catholic nations played each other off versus the Muslims for political advantage. There’s no reason that would not happen again.

It would not be good for the Church.

ICXC NIKA

Well this young 22yr would gladly fight in the Crusades if the Pope called one. Call me crazy, I don’t care. I think it’s an honor to fight in the Crusades, as my ancestors before me in the Spanish reconquest.

I do, however, agree. It would be exciting times. No more protestants = less anti-catholics.

-MontChevalier

 

[dmorgan]

Hmm…

dmorgan, as someone who has read these encyclicals you should know that the Church’s view of capitalism is a little nuanced than that. It is not as supportive of Capitalism as those on the Right claim (Don’t get your Catholic catechesis from Fox News) and it’s not as against Capitalism as those on the Left claim (Similarly, don’t get your catechesis from MSNBC).

The Church’s view of Capitalism was, I think, best summed up by Pope John Paul II:

So what does this mean? The Church is most certainly against Laissez-Faire Capitalism - that which seeks to completely eliminate government from the regulation of the economy. However, the Church is for the principals of market economy. I would say that capitalism as it was practiced in the United States before many of our New Deal economic regulations were removed would most certainly fit within the Church’s positive deceleration regarding capitalism. There is, most certainly, a danger in going to far with government regulation in the economy. There is a balancing act involved because you don’t want the government’s economic policies to be too restrictive (socialism, which the Church speaks out against) or too lax (the a fore condemned laissez-faire).

I do support the Church’s teachings on economics. I also suport the Church’s teachings on our responsibilities as Christians and our support of our brothers and sisters across the world. I am not a democrat, republican, liberal or conservative. I am a Roman Catholic. I “render unto Ceaser” that which is necesary but my aliegance is to the Church. My opinions are formed by the teachings of the Church.

Pax Christi

 

[dmorgan]

DMorgan, I don’t know where you learned your history, but your Marxist slant of American economic and social history and of our Catholic faith is what will be the ruination of what we have in this country. I am neither a debater nor a religious scholar, but I am a historian, and have heard your pseudo-intellectual arguments by college students and other self styled intellectuals for over 60 years.
Yes there have been abuses in Western society in the past, but in the US we have overcome most of these. In today’s american society, poverty is mainly the result of individuals who lack education which is largely due to a lack of family cohesion. Many of these people have no work ethic and have developed a dependance on public support.
It is obvious that you have not lived in any other country that does not have the liberties and personal freedoms that have been purchased for all of us with the blood of those who have fought for our country.
Yes, we have poverty and other social ills in our country, but bear in mind that the poorest American is quite wealthy when compared to the poor of other countries-and you do not have to go to South America or Asia for a comparison. Just look at the poor in many parts of Europe. No one starves to death in the USA except for the mentally disabled who have fallen through the cracks of our society and Children who are harmed by criminally negligent parents.
I only can pray that you are not in the teaching profession corrupting young people as someone has done to you!

I disagree with your assesment, and I find your attempt to label me as a Marxist in keepeing disgusting and an attempt to marginalize my points. I refuse to march lock-step with those who wave the flag and white wash the US history to prop up a system which has ground up everything in its path. George, we did not “overcome” the abuses of abject capitalism, we merely exported them to countries where the corporations can still buy of governments to meet their profit levels. I have visited many countries acrosss the world courtesy of Uncle Sam and I have no misconceptions as to the disparity between poverty in the US and poverty in third world nations, but if you are of the mindset that only disfunctional, lazy, lackidaisical citizens suffer in this country, I would suggest to you Sir to find your history somewhere other than the Fox network.

Pax Christi

 

[jam070406]

I disagree with your assesment, and I find your attempt to label me as a Marxist in keepeing disgusting and an attempt to marginalize my points. I refuse to march lock-step with those who wave the flag and white wash the US history to prop up a system which has ground up everything in its path. George, we did not “overcome” the abuses of abject capitalism, we merely exported them to countries where the corporations can still buy of governments to meet their profit levels. I have visited many countries acrosss the world courtesy of Uncle Sam and I have no misconceptions as to the disparity between poverty in the US and poverty in third world nations, but if you are of the mindset that only disfunctional, lazy, lackidaisical citizens suffer in this country, I would suggest to you Sir to find your history somewhere other than the Fox network.

Pax Christi

It seems what you have described is not capitalism but corporatism. Capitalism allows a little man to take a dream and create a business as a means to serve the community and provide for his family. Or take the demand for one’s skills and make a better life for himself. It’s called the American dream and it’s why immigrants flocked to this country. Be careful what you demonize and be thankful for the freedoms you have.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Capitalism as developed and exploited in western Europe and the US is a system of enriching the few at the expense of the masses. The current capitalistic system is just as destructive as any Marxist or communist regime has ever been. When wealth is the bar to which all things are measured, wealth becomes god. Morality and Christian Virtues are suppressed and secular values are espoused. Greed and gain become the measuring sticks, and situational ethics become standard. What ever is good for the bottom line becomes good for all. Cotton fields in the south, sweat shops in the Bronx, Irish and Chinese immigrant camps on the railroads, coal miners in West Virginia and Kentucky, Textile workers in the south, children in Malaysian shoe factories, Chinese workers in factories. And we support these actions with every dollar we spend.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_14091981_laborem-exercens_en.html

papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13rerum.htm

papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11QUADR.HTM

My apologies to the OP for this digression.

Capitalism, and capitalism alone, as a system, allowed us to live in the wealth that we live in. None of those socialistic fantasies could ever hold a candle. Despite all the problems that the West currently has economically, we still do far better than any of those “socialist paradises.” Interestingly enough, ex-Soviet bloc nations like Poland and the Czech Republic skyrocketed economically once they made the transition to a free market economy.

No other system could feasibly generate the immense amount of wealth that capitalism has. Contrary to what many believe, the social welfare state in “capitalist” America is among the best in the world.

What we need is not socialism, but economic protectionism. Good old trade barriers with China and Mexico. If we want free trade, it should be with Europe, if anything. Yet we place high barriers on French wine, but almost nothing no cheap Chinese toys. I’d say tariff the hell out of them, like they do with our products.