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twf
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So you essentially subscribe to the “white man’s burden” doctrine…
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twf
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Ethiopia was Christian when much of Europe was still pagan… and the Ethiopian Empire was never colonized by European powers.
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Churchman25
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Thats just one country, and also most of africa was colonized by european powers for recources and abunch of other things.
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Arkansan
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I subscribe to the notion that one should honestly acknowledge historical facts, not deny them for ideological reasons.
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twf
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There were benefits. India, for example, still benefits from British style infrastructure, law, and parliamentary democracy.
…but I think you greatly downplay the abuses. It wasn’t the odd case of abuse here or there. In many colonial contexts there was institutionalized abuse of one sort or another.
If you deny that, then I can just as easily accuse you of ideological biased reading of history.
…but I think you greatly downplay the abuses. It wasn’t the odd case of abuse here or there. In many colonial contexts there was institutionalized abuse of one sort or another.
If you deny that, then I can just as easily accuse you of ideological biased reading of history.
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JanSobieskiIII
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They weren’t going to civilize themselves
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Churchman25
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how do you know that precolonial Africa werent going to advance themselves further? Pre- colonial Africa had some pretty advanced civilizations. The problem is, is everything is based in comparison with Europe. You can have an advanced society that is less advanced than europe in military might,and power but is more advanced in social structures,and astronomy .
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JanSobieskiIII
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I don’t, it’s just a flippant comment.
But there’s much to be said that the only reason European culture ever rose to the levels it did was due to the Catholic Church. Societies without catholicism never reach the same heights as those with it.
For anyone interested “How the Catholic Church built Western Civilization” by Thomas E. Woods is a great read. It helps explain why Europeans were colonizers, not colonized.
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PJH_74
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This is ignoring an inconvenient truth, much of the scientific and philosophical information survived in Europe mainly because of Muslim Scholars.
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JanSobieskiIII
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Might check history on that. The so called Islamic golden age happened in spite of Islam, not because of it. After the Muslims swept across the near east they employed many educated Christians to run their affairs because they had no idea how to. St. John of Damascus is a good example of this.
Plus, those same texts existed in monasteries across Western Europe, Spain, and other former Roman territories. They were preserved in the Muslim world, but that wasn’t the only place.
Plus, those same texts existed in monasteries across Western Europe, Spain, and other former Roman territories. They were preserved in the Muslim world, but that wasn’t the only place.
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Rhubarb
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PJH_74
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Firstly they were Christians living within (and mostly born into) stable Muslim country. Almost all of greatest Physicist of 100 years ago were Jews living in Germany or Austria. In either case religion does not matter, the society and educational structure are the support for these activities. Second to say that Muslims (or societies if that makes you feel better) had no contributions to make is ridiculous. Algebra is a word derived from Arabic because, surprise, it was developed within the Islamic world. Third, what ever texts were holed up in Monasteries, the Islamic world expounded on them.
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JanSobieskiIII
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I’m just going to encourage you to look into the book I recommended above, use it as an outline to delve further into the influences Christianity has had on Western Civilization and why it’s more successful than others.
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PJH_74
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Sorry, it’s not Christianity that established the primacy of Western culture; maybe the lack there of. Name me one place within the last 500 years where Western first contact was (especially via exploration) was made on equal and non-exploitative terms
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JanSobieskiIII
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Unequal cultures cannot interact on equal terms so it’s a non-starter.
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PJH_74
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Which makes it more imperative that the more powerful state does not exploit the other if we are to call it Christian. Planting your flag and calling it yours without any respect for those who live there has been the theme in Western expansion. Our own country is more than culpable in this given our long sad saga of pushing first nation people aside for our gain; especially after going back on our word with treaties we already signed. Saying oops, sorry, at least you have our culture now, does not solve the past.
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Arkansan
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China
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JanSobieskiIII
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If you want to keep your extremely limited and shallow understanding of history go ahead. That doesn’t make it fact though, again, read some books. Thomas Woods has a bunch that are quite informative. Hilaire Belloc is also worth looking into.
en.wikipedia.org
“Antonio de Montesinos, a Dominican friar on the island of Hispaniola, was the first member of the clergy to publicly denounce all forms of enslavement and oppression of the indigenous peoples of the Americas.[17] Theologians such as Francisco de Vitoria and Bartolomé de las Casas drew up theological and philosophical bases for the defense of the human rights of the colonized native populations, thus creating the basis of international law, regulating the relationships between nations.”
That’s just one example. Yes, some people committed abuses, but the church was there decrying those abuse and working to change them. The entire concept of universal human rights is a Catholic one.
Christianity and colonialism - Wikipedia
“Antonio de Montesinos, a Dominican friar on the island of Hispaniola, was the first member of the clergy to publicly denounce all forms of enslavement and oppression of the indigenous peoples of the Americas.[17] Theologians such as Francisco de Vitoria and Bartolomé de las Casas drew up theological and philosophical bases for the defense of the human rights of the colonized native populations, thus creating the basis of international law, regulating the relationships between nations.”
That’s just one example. Yes, some people committed abuses, but the church was there decrying those abuse and working to change them. The entire concept of universal human rights is a Catholic one.
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JanSobieskiIII
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I really can’t recommend this particular book enough for someone that wants a good synopsis of Catholic contribution to the West, and why since the Church has largely been relegated to a place of insignificance our civilization and culture has declined.
theimaginativeconservative.org
“He covers the Church’s vital role in the conversion of the barbarians; the importance of monasticism as a preserver of western civilization; the Carolingian Renaissance; the development of the university; the emergence of the Scientific Revolution; the glorious art and architecture of the medieval period; the rise of international law in the Catholic disputes over the nature of the soul after encountering American Indians; pre-classical economics; charity; and morality. Along the way, one learns lots of interesting facts and trivia. In the High Middle Ages, for example, every Cistercian monastery “had a model factory, often as large the church and only several feet away, and waterpower drove the machinery of the various industries located on its floor” (35). On the following page, the reader discovers that shortly after the year 1000, a monk flew a glider, which he had presumably built, more than 600 feet. Well beyond this fascinating minutia, though, Woods presents in an inspired fashion how the universality of Catholicism itself has given the whole of humanity the concept of inalienable rights, the natural law, and the dignity of the human person.”
Did the Catholic Church Build Western Civilization?
Thomas Woods How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization begins by noting that few in our modern world understand the role of the Church in history.
theimaginativeconservative.org
“He covers the Church’s vital role in the conversion of the barbarians; the importance of monasticism as a preserver of western civilization; the Carolingian Renaissance; the development of the university; the emergence of the Scientific Revolution; the glorious art and architecture of the medieval period; the rise of international law in the Catholic disputes over the nature of the soul after encountering American Indians; pre-classical economics; charity; and morality. Along the way, one learns lots of interesting facts and trivia. In the High Middle Ages, for example, every Cistercian monastery “had a model factory, often as large the church and only several feet away, and waterpower drove the machinery of the various industries located on its floor” (35). On the following page, the reader discovers that shortly after the year 1000, a monk flew a glider, which he had presumably built, more than 600 feet. Well beyond this fascinating minutia, though, Woods presents in an inspired fashion how the universality of Catholicism itself has given the whole of humanity the concept of inalienable rights, the natural law, and the dignity of the human person.”
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PJH_74
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I don’t doubt that the Catholic Church had a good influence on the development of Europe. But to say intrinsically that this applies to the treatment of “Barbarians” does not make it good. They had, believe it or not, their own culture and in some cases a very sophisticated culture. But taking that culture away and making them subordinate serfs or even slaves while exploiting their land is NOT Christian. I’m not questioning your view point that the process helped spread Christianity, but the cruel means to obtain it does not justify the end.
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