Columbus Day Has Been A Federal Holiday Since 1934, Maine and Vermont have renamed "Indigenous People Day"

[gam197]

Come on, this is 500 years ago, a very different time. Columbus arrived here at age 41 and only lived to be 55 yet he sailed back 4 times so with kind of time constraint, how did this older man have any time to do so many bad things. Not saying he was a saint but really.

If anyone is to blame how about the Spanish government?

 

[gracepoole]

Yes I do. Please stop repeating that strawman. By the early 1900’s the Irish had significant voting power in many areas and concerns about their appropriation of such power and how it was being handled at a local level in some cities were common themes in the media. How far that reflected institution bias towards the Irish and ingrained prejudices is a matter of debate of course.

Claiming that an Irishman doesn’t understand Irish history. Interesting.

 

[gam197]

Again, I assume you have heard of the Knight of Columbus.

Founded in 1882 by Michael J. McGivney in New Haven, Connecticut, it was named in honor of the explorer Christopher Columbus

The Knights of Columbus , a 501©(8) nonprofit, was founded in New Haven, Connecticut, in 1882 to provide benefits and community for newly arrived Irish immigrants.

Many Italian-Americans observe Columbus Day as a celebration of their heritage, and the first such celebration was held in New York City on October 12, 1866.[13] The day was first enshrined as a legal holiday in the United States through the lobbying of Angelo Noce, a first generation Italian, in Denver.[14] The first statewide holiday was proclaimed by Colorado governor Jesse F. McDonald in 1905, and it was made a statutory holiday in 1907.[15][16] In April 1937, as a result of lobbying by the [Knights of Columbus](Knights of Columbus - Wikipedia) and New York City Italian leader Generoso Pope, Congress and President Franklin Delano Roosevelt proclaimed October 12 be a federal holiday under the name Columbus Day.[15][17][18][19]

It was an effort by both Italian Catholic Americans and Irish Catholic Americans to recognize Columbus as founder of the America.

 

[gracepoole]

So the Irish co-opted an Italian and because of this they’re the most significantly impacted by attacks on Columbus Day?

 

[gam197]

Claiming that an Irishman doesn’t understand Irish history. Interesting.

Yes he is Irish but he lives in the UK. I would not venture to tell him what it is like to be Irish and live in the UK

 

[gam197]

So the Irish co-opted an Italian and because of this they’re the most significantly impacted by attacks on Columbus Day

The Irish did not co-op an Italian. This was about Catholic identity in a predominantly protestant nation. As you can see on a map, the south does not celebrate Columbus day.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

Claiming that an Irishman doesn’t understand Irish history. Interesting.

Yes he is Irish but he lives in the UK. I would not venture to tell him what it is like to be Irish and live in the UK

Respectfully, this seems a tad nitpicky. It also seems that you and those who agree with you are the only people allowed to understand this issue or be offended.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

So the Irish co-opted an Italian and because of this they’re the most significantly impacted by attacks on Columbus Day

The Irish did not co-op an Italian. This was about Catholic identity in a predominantly protestant nation. As you can see on a map, the south does not celebrate Columbus day.

Eh, yeah. They co-opted an Italian. Don’t get me wrong: as Catholics they’re free to do so. But I’d say you’re out on a limb when claiming the Irish are more impacted than the Italians.

 

[gam197]

Are you denying that the Italians Catholics Americans and Irish Catholics Americans worked together to get this holiday?

You can argue whether what has been said about Columbus is true or false but as you can see by the many posts on this thread that depends how you see him, not one poster has claimed he was a saint.

 

[gracepoole]

Are you denying that the Italians Catholics Americans and Irish Catholics Americans worked together to get this holiday?

Nope.

You can argue whether what has been said about Columbus is true or false but as you can see by the many posts on this thread that depends how you see him, not one has said he was a saint.

I’m not sure how this is relevant to my comments.

I find your claim that the Irish suffer more because of this issue odd. By your own explanations the most that can be said is that the Irish and Italians both suffer because of it.

 

[gam197]

I find your claim that the Irish suffer more because of this issue odd. By your own explanations the most that can be said is that the Irish and Italians both suffer because of it.

I have never said that the Irish American Catholics suffer more than the Italian American Catholics. I would venture to say many Italian Americans are outraged each year when they hear of these constant attacks on Columbus.

 

[gracepoole]

gracepoole:

I find your claim that the Irish suffer more because of this issue odd. By your own explanations the most that can be said is that the Irish and Italians both suffer because of it.

I have never said that the Irish American Catholics suffer more than the Italian American Catholics.

Please see below:

No it is an outward attack on the catholic faith, but aimed at two particular groups and most importantly the Irish.

 

[gam197]

If you would go back and read the whole thread, I was relating the history of the Irish Catholic first setting foot in American and the constant attack on the Irish Catholics.

They were hated and that spilled over into many issues. This became an issue and they teamed up with the Italians. There were a lot less Italians here at the time. I mentioned both groups but did not mean to come across the only ones. I am sure many if not most Italian Catholics are outraged by what is happening.

 

[gracepoole]

If you would go back and read the whole thread, I was relating the history of the Irish Catholic first setting foot in American and the constant attack on the Irish Catholics.

For what it’s worth, I did read the whole thread. In your comment you claimed that attacks on Columbus Day are an attack on the faith and especially on the Irish.

 

[gam197]

Yes I claim there were attacks on the Irish because the Irish was the prominent group at the time. That does not mean I meant to take anything away from the Italian Americans and their fight for the Catholic faith.

 

[Cathoholic]

@rhubarb. You are a history guy.

I want to respectfully request that you post some good information about the excellent things Christopher Columbus has done.

So far I have not seen virtually any positive things from your sources regarding Columbus.
(What about “good faith?”)

Surely he had SOME GOOD things going for him.

And since you have all that history knowledge and training, I am asking you to post not a phony encomium, but a reasonable review of the positive attributes of Columbus and his voyages here.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Cathoholic]

AINg . . .

If YOU steal a million dollars from your neighbor and he dies should you make restitution to his heirs or just forget about it?

(Bold mine.)

That’s part of the point AINg.

I didn’t steal anything.

You are going down the reparations road. And it is an impossible one at that, at least the further you get from the event.

No. I do not “owe” his heirs.

But if you think you do, you can begin writing checks today of yours, to whatever heirs you think righteousness commands you to do.

You do not need me, or and Act of Congress, or someone else to join you in this self-destructive injection of good feelings you will give yourself.

As a matter-of-fact, perhaps you ALREADY are sending checks!

Are you sending out checks of your own money to Caribs, Native Americans, etc. AINg??

 

[Cathoholic]

AINg . . .

Is it morally OK to murder people, steal their land, and not to make full restitution to the heirs of the victims? Is it morally OK to buy land that was stolen from people?

My response?

No (except for your “full restitution to the heirs” portion which I disagree with due to the impossibility of your false premise here).

Why would you even ask that?

.

AINg . . .

Because:
Today is Columbus day. . . .

So what?

That was not the context of the question.

The question had to do with me (who you directed that at).

And I told you, I already condemned killing and mayhem.

So I still don’t understand why you directed this at me.

It’s not as though I am trying to hide unflattering historical events

(That hiding facts has been you so far.
You haven’t mentioned anything about the Caribs eating the explorers or each other.

You have not said about how some of the explorers saw these things kidnappings, murders, torture, and cannibalism against them as acts of war.
You have been silent on how Columbus had in mind the good of the souls of the people in these (then) new lands).

Many American Indians were killed and their families murdered by white Europeans.

It was a two-way street wasn’t it?

I have pre-emptively admitted the big picture.

I invite you to do the same. So far you have not.

Stealing is morally wrong,.
Their land was stolen from them.

If the natives gave it away for “treaties” would that make it OK? If their leaders got some glass or other relatively worthless value, and the native LEADERS OKed taking the land etc. from the commoners, is THAT OK then??

(Full Disclosure: It is not OK.

Be careful with your answer,
because as soon as you admit that is illicit for leadership to do that and amounts to . . .

. . . cahoots of the native political leaders with the European “invaders” . . .

I am going to ask you the same about American leaders in cahoots with the illegal alien lobby . . .

. . . and them TAKING tax monies from Americans and giving it away NOW
(“Now” not in a far-removed impossible-to-recoup sense. Rather one that pay-back to American tax payers CAN hypothetically occur.)

So I am going to turn the whole question around on you and eventually ask you if we should shake-down illegal aliens for getting back tax monies stolen from American taxpayers for healthcare in ERs, schooling, jobs they took from Americans, etc.

Be careful with your answers because
I am going to ask you to stand by your own principles
and work it BOTH ways.

I am not going to let you get away
with this argument ONE WAY
just because you say something overly broad against “Europeans”
or the irrelevant fact that YOU brought up,
that they were “WHITE” (of course they probably were not ALL white.).

(See AINg unnecessarily drag skin color into the conversation here.)

AINg . . .

. . . were killed and their families murdered by WHITE Europeans.

Emphasis mine.

 

[gam197]

You can’t blame Columbus for everyone else’s sin. He was a sailor who did 4 trips in older age. Your anger is mis directed.

 

[gam197]

This day has meaning more so for some group similar to Saint Patrick. Many would have public parades for Saint Patrick eliminated as they have no real significance for Americans.

Columbus has more significance simply because it was his bravery that help found America.