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dvdjs
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Comedian Michelle Wolf sparks fury, debate with roast at correspondents' dinner
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Ridgerunner
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It was exactly that, but it was private. This comedienne’s bad language and locker room talk was public.In fact, t was the Trump fans who tried to deflect from the misogynist content of his words and pass it off merely as bad language and locker room talk.
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Inisfallen
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Right. That’s an entirely valid criticism, in comic terms, of the media, and I would have thought it would have Trump supporters on their feet applauding.
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dvdjs
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Misogyny? Yes, at long last we agree.It was exactly that
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Ridgerunner
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I felt it was merely bad language and locker room talk, but very poorly done. Some people “cuss” cleverly and well. Some don’t, and just sound crude. Going by this example alone, I would say (and said a long time ago) that Trump can’t carry it off well. No artistry. Just crude language.A lot of them, anyway. Some were fairly up front about it, and said, in effect, yes, the guy is a creep, but we’ll take it just so we get the Supreme Court picks, but many defended, and still defend, every word that comes out of his mouth.
It really is, for some, a cult of personality. Amazing. I never thought that could happen here in the US.
I see this comedienne the same way. It wasn’t clever or witty. She was just crude.
With Trump it’s not a cult of personality you see from his supporters. It’s really just defensive. Trump is so vehemently and thoroughly attacked by the Dems that it invites rebuttal. I have said a number of times on here that I think that’s the way it is, and some who support Trump acknowledged it. Trump isn’t the “god” for his supporters that liberals make him out to be. He’s just the elected president who, so far at least, has done some things most conservatives would agree with and few would disagree with. Some have criticized him, even on CAF. But Dems are not likely to hear much in the way of real “dialogue” with those who support Trump as long as they condemn his every action and word.
That’s not a “cult of personality”.
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Ridgerunner
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No we don’t. Putting words in my mouth again. You know better. You just do it anyway.Misogyny? Yes, at long last we agree.
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Inisfallen
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Eh. I disagree. There are plenty here at CAF who really would defend him if he shot someone on Fifth Avenue, and I think you could take a pretty good guess as to who they are.That’s not a “cult of personality”.
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lmachine
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I wonder what the difference between joking about sexual assault with the boys and using the same language to criticize those in power is?Everybody went berserk and got the righteous vapors when Trump said some similar things in a private conversation that he had no expectation would ever be made public. But for a liberal comedienne in public, it’s okay, I guess.
Interesting that a woman using the same language as Donald Trump has a “vile tongue”.Anything to defend a liberal, no matter how vile her tongue. And anything to attack Trump even if one has to make it up.
How does he know a person could do that?No. He said a person could.
And several woman have detailed his sexual assaults where he pushed them against the wall and kissed them.The worst thing he said about his own conduct was that he kissed women.
Which is why that’s not what Wolf did, and why she’s being widely praised by other comedians. The people who quieted down throughout her set were the people she was shaming.It’s not witty to just repeat the “f” and “p” and “j-o” words. It just isn’t.
It’s totally okay to joke about sexual assault as long as it remains private so I don’t have to think about it and the culture of sexual violence that kind of talk reinforces.It was exactly that, but it was private. This comedienne’s bad language and locker room talk was public.
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Ridgerunner
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I don’t think I would agree with this. Ask them.Eh. I disagree. There are plenty here at CAF who really would defend him if he shot someone on Fifth Avenue, and I think you could take a pretty good guess as to who they are.
But just look at Post 110. I didn’t say Trump is a misogynist, and I have never said it. But dvdjs took the opportunity to parse and twist my words in order to make it seem I had accused Trump of misogyny. When Dems do that when it’s clearly not what’s being said, what do you think would cause any Trump supporter to actually criticize him in the presence of liberals?
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Inisfallen
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I would, but I don’t think I could rely on the answers. And I’m not going to name anyone in public.I don’t think I would agree with this. Ask them.
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Inisfallen
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Fair enough. I don’t recall you saying that, and I don’t think you believe it.I didn’t say Trump is a misogynist, and I have never said it.
Me? I think his relationship to the opposite sex is, well, not up to the standard I hold myself to (and as the father of two daughters, I’m very conscious of the example I set), and I’ll leave it at that.
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Ridgerunner
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One was private and never intended otherwise. The other was public and intended to be public.I wonder what the difference between joking about sexual assault with the boys and using the same language to criticize those in power is?
Not interesting really. I said a long time ago that Trump’s use of coarse language was artless and unattractive. So is that of the comedienne. But I’ll admit to this much patriarchalism. I hate hearing a woman say the “f” or “p” or “j-o” words far more than hearing it from a man. It just sounds worse.Interesting that a woman using the same language as Donald Trump has a “vile tongue”.
How did anybody know there was such a thing as a “casting couch” before the “me too” movement? Some things are widely known even by those who didn’t experience them.How does he know a person could do that?
If “locker room talk” reinforces a “culture of sexual violence” then it has been going on at least since Roman times. Frankly, I think violent conduct toward women is its own phenomenon and does not have its genesis in puerile talk.It’s totally okay to joke about sexual assault as long as it remains private so I don’t have to think about it and the culture of sexual violence that kind of talk reinforces.
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Inisfallen
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No, you’re right. It doesn’t have its genesis in puerile talk. It’s the other way around. The puerile talk has its genesis in tolerance of violent conduct towards women.If “locker room talk” reinforces a “culture of sexual violence” then it has been going on at least since Roman times. Frankly, I think violent conduct toward women is its own phenomenon and does not have its genesis in puerile talk.
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Ridgerunner
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I am the father of four daughters, and I have never used crude language in front of any of them or my wife, for that matter. Neither my wife nor I will tolerate it in our home.Me? I think his relationship to the opposite sex is, well, not up to the standard I hold myself to (and as the father of two daughters, I’m very conscious of the example I set), and I’ll leave it at that.
I agree Trump’s relationship with the opposite sex is defective. He has had affairs. He’s been divorced and remarried. But such defectiveness is likely true of the greater part of mankind. I see both things all around me, and so does anyone else in this society who pays attention.
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lmachine
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That’s one difference. There are some much more important ones.One was private and never intended otherwise. The other was public and intended to be public.
As has sexual violence.If “locker room talk” reinforces a “culture of sexual violence” then it has been going on at least since Roman times.
Something tells me you probably wouldn’t see it that way if the talk was aimed at one of your daughters.Frankly, I think violent conduct toward women is its own phenomenon and does not have its genesis in puerile talk.
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Ridgerunner
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I’m not sure that’s true either. I was a teenage boy once. The talk was exceedingly vulgar at times and the wildest claims were made. But I am not aware of a single friend of mine who has been violent toward women. Certainly I have not, nor has any one of my brothers.No, you’re right. It doesn’t have its genesis in puerile talk. It’s the other way around. The puerile talk has its genesis in tolerance of violent conduct towards women.
I don’t think they’re connected. I don’t like to play “armchair shrink” but from what little I have read on the subject, serious and repeated violence toward women is borne of hatred of women; resentment for something in one’s past or, in some cases, just garden variety sociopathic personality.
But on the more common and infrequent level, I’ll also say that violence of women toward men is far more common than most people think it is. Ask a cop. They’ll tell you it’s almost equal between the sexes. I’ll grant that a lot of women are really foul-mouthed. But if you talk to cops about it, which I have, the violence seems almost always to be about money or possessions.
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lmachine
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Donald Trump was not a teenage boy in 2005.I was a teenage boy once.
Saying things like “I moved on her like a b*tch,” is a strong indicator of hatred of women.I don’t like to play “armchair shrink” but from what little I have read on the subject, serious and repeated violence toward women is borne of hatred of women;
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Ridgerunner
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I would not for a moment doubt that some young men probably did make puerile and indecent remarks about my daughters. My daughters are attractive and young men do that, and while I would not tolerate it in my presence, (and young men know that and refrain) it has never led to violence.Something tells me you probably wouldn’t see it that way if the talk was aimed at one of your daughters.
I don’t know if you are a man or a woman. But I will say if you are a man you have surely been cloistered up in a monastery, raised by nobody but nuns your entire life and have never run “with the boys”, ever.
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F_Marturana
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Trump was 59 at the time. With 4 children, two of them daughters and a young pregnant wife.I would not for a moment doubt that some young men probably did make puerile and indecent remarks about my daughters
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Ridgerunner
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Nonsense. It’s puerile and artless, as I have said a number of times previously. But it’s extremely common, and has nothing whatever to do with hatred of women, let alone violence toward them.Donald Trump was not a teenage boy in 2005.
Ridgerunner:
I don’t like to play “armchair shrink” but from what little I have read on the subject, serious and repeated violence toward women is borne of hatred of women;
Saying things like “I moved on her like a b*tch,” is a strong indicator of hatred of women.
As I have also said before, I have heard women say worse things. Much worse.
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