Commandments should not be followed ...

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As for, “if you love Me you will keep My commandments,” well, we’ve been all through that. No one has yet shown me where Jesus called the 10 Commandments “My commandments.”
I know. Even though you are trinitarian, you seem to believe that the Second Person of the Trinity somehow did not participate in the giving of the Law. 🤷
Plus, he says, “If you love Me you will keep My commandments.” He does not say “If you keep My commandments I will save you.”
I agree. If a person is regenerated, and living by the Spirit, such a person will, by virtue of his new nature, created in Christ, will keep the commandments. The obedience to His commandments is evidence of our love for Him. It flows out of our relationship with HIm. And, His commandments are not burdensome. 👍
You’re spinning again, Guanophore.Where is it stated the ministry of the H.S. is to enable the believer to keep the commandments?
“God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Phil 2:13

“And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work.” 2 Cor 9:7-9
It is stated, however, that the believer is to now walk in/by the Spirit (who indwells him) and he will not carry out the desire of the flesh:Gal 5:16 “But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.”
Well, you answered your own question! This is an example of where scripture shows that it is the ministry of the Spirit to bring about in us obedience to all that God desires. It is not by our own power that we can avoid carrying out the desires of the flesh, but by His!
All who enter the kingdom of God are possessors of eternal life. The “kingdom of God” is a broad term which includes all that is holy, such as the holy angels and all the redeemed of mankind. The kingdom itself is not eternal life, but all men who inherit it have it.1 Cor 6:9 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,…”

Gal 5:19-21 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."True believers are not named among those in 1 Cor. 6:9 but are the “washed,” “sanctified” and “justified” in verse eleven.
Scripture makes no distinction of "true believers’ from “other” believers. This letter is written to those whom Paul defines at the beginning as “true believers”.
Those sins listed in Gal. 5 are “deeds of the flesh” which believers can avoid by walking in/by the Spirit Who now indwells them.
This is, indeed, Catholic Teaching. 👍
Paul separates believers from the unrighteous who “practice” (by nature, pattern of lifestyle) such deeds. They being “in the flesh,” which the true believer is not (Rom. 8:9). For instance:Eph 5:18 "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,"This is an exhortation to proper behavior for the redeemed in Christ, not a condition (qualification) for salvation.
I think one must apply the word “condition” differently. Those who practice such deeds are not in a condition of those who are in a state of grace, and reflect a lifestyle that does not inherit the kingdom. A person who has made a “true” profession of faith can fall from a state of grace, and return to a lifetyle of living by the flesh. If this were not possible, Paul and the other writers would not have to write so many warnings about it.
The problem with the legalistic mindset is that it interprets every exhortation in Scripture to the redeemed in Christ as a divine condition to be met in order to inherit salvation. Such a mindset cannot ever grasp GRACE. It kicks against the goads. The only way out for the person with such a mindset is to allow GRACE to grasp him (through faith). But few ever do.
Well, I agree. I am mystified why you read these passages with such a legalistic mindset. this is not the Apostolic Teaching. 🤷
 
Moondweller and sandusky appear to come from a dispensationalist perspective that teaches that they are obligated to love and accept as brethren only those who agree with their soteriology. 🤷
Lets ask them.

MD & Sandy … give us your Christian credentials, CV, etc ? It will not prejudice our take on your posts … but, it will give us some insight into your Church’s beliefs and practices — and might even convince some of us to join your church. 🙂

I would bet MD will tell us that any ‘born again’ disciple in the Catholic Church will see heaven …if he stays faithful to the end, w/o putting his faith in the Mosaic law, but in Christ, our advocate before the Father, with regards to our law breaking pasts.
 
I don’t agree with this. Unlike the children of the Reformers, Catholics do not pre-occupy themselves with who is “saved” and who is not. We receive the apostolic teaching that it is the task of God, working through His holy angels, to sort out the weeds from the wheat, and this is done at harvest. We are to allow all to grow together.
I wouldn’t of believed it either, until I recently saw posts here on CAF from Catholics in this regard. Apparently they base their belief on Baltimore CC … where it says “No one can be saved outside of Catholic Church”. There is a recent thread [within last month] entiled just this.

Apparently, the Church has modified its position more recently … and now allows for exceptions to the rule. Cases where people have never heard of Christ, the Catholic Church, or thru ignorance. The Church also now allows that Protestants who have had Tinitarian baptism and remain faithful to Christ to the end … can be saved outside the Church Universal.
 
I wouldn’t of believed it either, until I recently saw posts here on CAF from Catholics in this regard. Apparently they base their belief on Baltimore CC … where it says “No one can be saved outside of Catholic Church”. There is a recent thread [within last month] entiled just this.

Apparently, the Church has modified its position more recently … and now allows for exceptions to the rule. Cases where people have never heard of Christ, the Catholic Church, or thru ignorance. The Church also now allows that Protestants who have had Tinitarian baptism and remain faithful to Christ to the end … can be saved outside the Church Universal.
As always, the Catechism:

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 **Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. **All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 **The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.**279

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:
  • a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280
  • conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”;281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;
  • prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'282
  • fraternal knowledge of each other;283
  • ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284
  • dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285
  • collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.
822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

This is why those who accuse Catholics of the sin of pride because we view the Church as our birthright display an ignorance of Church teaching.

The Church is not simply our birthright—but the birthright of all.

That some squander their birthright in places far from the Church does not make us yearn for the return of the progigals any less. As noted above, concerns for unity are a reflection of the Holy Spirit working within us, for Christian unity is God’s will, not man’s.
 
Lets ask them.

MD & Sandy … give us your Christian credentials, CV, etc ? It will not prejudice our take on your posts … but, it will give us some insight into your Church’s beliefs and practices — and might even convince some of us to join your church. 🙂
Besides believing in the solas, Sandusky is a Calvinist (i.e. TULIP) and moondweller believes in eternal security and that to believe or not to believe is a matter of free choice, in the libertarian sense.

God Bless,
Michael
 
This is why those who accuse Catholics of the sin of pride because we view the Church as our birthright display an ignorance of Church teaching.

The Church is not simply our birthright—but the birthright of all.

That some squander their birthright in places far from the Church does not make us yearn for the return of the progigals any less. As noted above, concerns for unity are a reflection of the Holy Spirit working within us, for Christian unity is God’s will, not man’s.
Well … hasn’t always been so correct. Since the Baltimore Cat. wasn’t so merciful 🙂

But, I must say … Vatican 2 and recent Popes have corrected many deficiencies and bolstered the image of Church to all peoples.

Its because of recent events, that many Protestants are being drawn to research, fact check, and explore the Universal Church.

I think if Catholics worldwide will really embrace what the Church is now stating in its formal teachings … a new day of Christian eccumenical brotherhood will soon be upon us.

The day Tef and I break bread together and join hands saying ‘peace be with you’ … may not be far off
 
moondweller believes in eternal security

God Bless,
Michael
I do too !! And I’m leaning Catholic. Can’t I become Catholic and still enjoy ‘eternal security’ ?

Seriously, don’t we all believe in eternal security ? We established yesterday in this thread that the Church and Christ desires all disciples to be assured they are ‘sealed’ into their Lord.
 
Well … hasn’t always been so correct. Since the Baltimore Cat. wasn’t so merciful 🙂
The Truth has always been the Truth; doctrine and dogma develop over time as more of it is revealed to us. I would have to see the relevant passages of the Baltimore Catechism in comparison to the current Catechism in order to understand the differences.

Some have misinterpreted the Church’s teaching on ecumenism to mean, “It doesn’t matter which Church you are in if you hold to the Nicene Creed and have been baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit.” Pope Benedict XVI continues to demonstrate that this is not the case—the Church does not pursue a false unity based on lowest common denominator Christianity, but a true unity based on respect for Truth.
But, I must say … Vatican 2 and recent Popes have corrected many deficiencies and bolstered the image of Church to all peoples.
It would depend on how you define “deficiencies”. The Church is always in need of reform. The abuses wrought since Vatican II are being reformed even now. The abuses which afflict us today will in turn be addressed tomorrow. This is the nature of the Church in the world.
Its because of recent events, that many Protestants are being drawn to research, fact check, and explore the Universal Church.
This is true, and welcome.
I think if Catholics worldwide will really embrace what the Church is now stating in its formal teachings … a new day of Christian eccumenical brotherhood will soon be upon us.
The spirit of this age seems to be tending toward a true ecumenism; this may be in recognition of the advance of secular materialism and the threat posed by it to all people of faith.
The day Tef and I break bread together and join hands saying ‘peace be with you’ … may not be far off
That would be a wonderful thing, brother.
 
Here we go again. Regarding the Spirit enabling believers to keep God’s commandments, Ezekiel 36:27

27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Regarding keeping God’s commandments, Paul says:

19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Which commandments - as in plural - of God is he talking about?
Good question I bet he dont answer
Those sins listed in Gal. 5 are “deeds of the flesh” which believers can avoid by walking in/by the Spirit Who now indwells them. .
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Now im really confused the Spirit helps us avoid wallking in the flesh but does not help us keep the commandments

this whole thred thanks to moondweller has really showed me how rediculas some people can get when backed into a corner.

he dont even realize he is down for the count.

Waive the white flag moon and join Jesus Christ true Chruch
Moondweller has expended gigabytes trying to establish that those of us whom continue to follow the Ten Commandments must also follow the Levitical laws, repeatedly claiming that we are somehow bound to keep Saturday as the sabbath because we believe murder, theft, covetousness, and the rest to be deadly sins**. He apparently does not recognize that such silly arguments apply as well to the first Commandment—since we accept one God and place no other gods before him**,
I guess Catholics arnt doomed after all for haveing false Idols 😃
 
I do too !! And I’m leaning Catholic. Can’t I become Catholic and still enjoy ‘eternal security’ ?

Seriously, don’t we all believe in eternal security ? We established yesterday in this thread that the Church and Christ desires all disciples to be assured they are ‘sealed’ into their Lord.
One thing is to say that a Christian has moral assurance, another thing is to say that a genuine Christian can never lose their salvation (eternal security). 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
 
One thing is to say that a Christian has moral assurance, another thing is to say that a genuine Christian can never lose their salvation (eternal security). 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
Is that akin to saying that Jesus is always faithful but that we can elect to be unfaithful and therefore choose hell?
 
has moral assurance, another thing is to say that a genuine Christian can never lose their salvation (eternal security). 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
Nope … ‘moral assurance’ is not enough to satisfy.

Unless the Catholic Church [and its members] believe in salvation security in Christ … Protestant teachings offer the only valid Pauline message of Christ to the world.
 
Apparently, the Church has modified its position more recently … and now allows for exceptions to the rule. Cases where people have never heard of Christ, the Catholic Church, or thru ignorance. The Church also now allows that Protestants who have had Tinitarian baptism and remain faithful to Christ to the end … can be saved outside the Church Universal.
This is not a new position of the Church. Although lengthy, the following may be of assistance to you. It’s from The Catholic Catechism; Hardon, John A. SJ.

The Catholic Church makes claims about herself that are easily misunderstood, especially in the modern atmosphere of pluralism and ecumenism. Among these claims, the most fundamental is the doctrine of the Church’s necessity for salvation. Not unlike other dogmas of the faith, this one has seen some remarkable development, and the dogmatic progress has been especially marked since the definition of papal infallibility. It seems that as the Church further clarified her own identity as regards the papacy and collegiality, she also deepened (without changing) her self-understanding as the mediator of salvation to mankind.
The New Testament makes it plain that Christ founded the Church to be a society for the salvation of all men. The ancient Fathers held the unanimous conviction that salvation cannot be achieved outside the Church. St. Ireneus taught that “where the Church is, there is the spirit of God, and where the spirit of God is, there is the Church and all grace.” (35 ) Origen simply declared, “Outside the Church nobody will be saved.” (36) And the favorite simile in patristic literature for the Church’s absolute need to be saved is the Ark of Noah, outside of which there is no prospect of deliverance from the deluge of sin.
Alongside this strong insistence on the need for belonging to the Church was another Tradition from the earliest times that is less well known. It was understandable that the early Christian writers would emphasize what is part of revelation, that Christ founded “the Catholic Church which alone retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth; this, the home of faith; this, the temple of God.” (37) They were combating defections from Catholic unity and refuting the heresies that divided Christianity in the Mediterranean world and paved the way for the rise of Islam in the seventh century.
But they also had the biblical narrative of the “pagan” Cornelius who, the Acts tell us, was “an upright and God-fearing man” even before baptism. Gradually, therefore, as it became clear that there were “God-fearing” people outside the Christian fold, and that some were deprived of their Catholic heritage without fault on their part, the parallel Tradition arose of considering such people open to salvation, although they were not professed Catholics or even necessarily baptized. Ambrose and Augustine paved the way for making these distinctions. By the twelfth century, it was widely assumed that a person can be saved if some “invincible obstacle stands in the way” of his baptism and entrance into the Church.
Thomas Aquinas restated the constant teaching about the general necessity of the Church. But he also conceded that a person may be saved extra sacramentally by a baptism of desire and therefore without actual membership by reason of his at least implicit desire to belong to the Church.
It would be inaccurate, however, to look upon these two traditions as in opposition. They represent the single mystery of the Church as universal sacrament of salvation, which the Church’s magisterium has explained in such a way that what seems to be a contradiction is really a paradox.
Since the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215 defined that “The universal Church of the faithful is one, outside of which no one is saved,” there have been two solemn definitions of the same doctrine, by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302 and at the Council of Florence in 1442. At the Council of Trent, which is commonly looked upon as a symbol of Catholic unwillingness to compromise, the now familiar dogma of baptism by desire was solemnly defined; and it was this Tridentine teaching that supported all subsequent recognition that actual membership in the Church is not required to reach one’s eternal destiny.
At the Second Council of the Vatican, both streams of doctrine were delicately welded into a composite whole:
[The Council] relies on sacred Scripture and Tradition in teaching that this pilgrim Church is necessary for salvation. Christ alone is the mediator of salvation and the way of salvation. He presents himself to us in his Body, which is the Church. When he insisted expressly on the necessity for faith and baptism, he asserted at the same time the necessity for the Church which men would enter by the gateway of baptism. This means that it would be impossible for men to be saved if they refused to enter or to remain in the Catholic Church, unless they were unaware that her foundation by God through Jesus Christ made it a necessity.
Full incorporation in the society of the Church belongs to those who are in possession of the Holy Spirit, accept its order in its entirety with all its established means of salvation, and are united to Christ, who rules it by the agency of the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops, within its visible framework. The bonds of their union are the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and fellowship. Despite incorporation in the Church, that man is not saved who fails to persevere in charity, and remains in the bosom of the Church “with his body” but not “with his heart.” All the Church’s children must be sure to ascribe their distinguished rank to Christ’s special grace and not to their own deserts. If they fail to correspond with that grace in thought, word and deed, so far from being saved, their judgment will be the more severe. (38)
Using this conciliar doctrine as guide, we see that the Church is (in its way) as indispensable as Christ for man’s salvation. The reason is that, since his ascension and the descent of the Spirit, the Church is Christ active on earth performing the salvific work for which he was sent into the world by the Father. Accordingly, the Church is necessary not only as a matter of precept but as a divinely instituted means, provided a person knows that he must use this means to be saved.
Actual incorporation into the Church takes place by baptism of water. Those who are not actually baptized may, nevertheless, be saved through the Church according to their faith in whatever historical revelation they come to know and in their adequate cooperation with the internal graces of the Spirit they receive.
On both counts, however, whoever is saved owes his salvation to the one Catholic Church founded by Christ. It is to this Church alone that Christ entrusted the truths of revelation which have by now, though often dimly, penetrated all the cultures of mankind. It is this Church alone that communicates the merits won for the whole world on the cross.
Those who are privileged to share in the fullness of the Church’s riches of revealed wisdom, sacramental power, divinely assured guidance, and blessings of community life cannot pride themselves on having deserved what they possess. Rather they should humbly recognize their chosen position and gratefully live up to the covenant to which they have been called. Otherwise what began as a sign of God’s special favor on earth may end as a witness to his justice in the life to come.
{From The Catholic Catechism, Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Co., 1975, pp. 234-236}
35. St. Ireneus, Adversus Haereses, II, 24, 1.
36. Origen, Homilia In Jesu Nave, 3, 5.
37. Lactantius, Divinae Institutiones, IV, 30, 1.
38. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, II, 14.
 
Nope … ‘moral assurance’ is not enough to satisfy.

Unless the Catholic Church [and its members] believe in salvation security in Christ … Protestant teachings offer the only valid Pauline message of Christ to the world.
There is no absolute assurance when it can be taken away:

Revelation 22:19

19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

God bless,
Michael
 
Protestant teachings offer the only valid Pauline message of Christ to the world.
I agree! It is a protestant teaching. Part of the protestant tradition, even, outside of Christ’s Church.

Valid according to whom? Are your opinions on faith tradition, even your own, infallible?

The Holy Spirit and the Bible have lead me to the Catholic Church, but not you. Is one of us on the correct path?

Show a proof that it is you who is correct. You can’t. So is only one of us on the correct path?
 
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Teflon93:
My theology is the Church’s theology—I adhere to the Church’s wisdom, rather than shop for one which conforms to mine:
However, you were shopping at the time you decided to adhere to your church’s teachings; that adherence has been dubbed by James White as sola ecclesia—church alone.

White makes this statement: the Roman church claims that it has both written, and defined the canon of scripture, and it has spoken and defined what is oral tradition as well; moreover, that church claims, for itself, the right of sole determiner of what both scripture and tradition means; therefore, the church claims an authority that is greater than both Scripture, and Tradition.

He then poses this question: That being the case, how can your church logically be subservient to the things she defines?

“Who shall guard the guards themselves?”
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Teflon93:
022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.
There’s no biblical basis for purgatory.
 
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guanophore:
Moondweller and sandusky appear to come from a dispensationalist perspective that teaches that they are obligated to love and accept as brethren only those who agree with their soteriology.
It is at the apostle’s urging that I test the spirits (1 Jn 4:1-6). Again, were I you, I would wonder why your church teaches that we are “separated brethren” when we hold such dissimilar positions in more things than this particular thread topic, and one you mention above?
 
However, you were shopping at the time you decided to adhere to your church’s teachings; that adherence has been dubbed by James White as sola ecclesia—church alone.

White makes this statement: the Roman church claims that it has both written, and defined the canon of scripture, and it has spoken and defined what is oral tradition as well; moreover, that church claims, for itself, the right of sole determiner of what both scripture and tradition means; therefore, the church claims an authority that is greater than both Scripture, and Tradition.

He then poses this question: That being the case, how can your church logically be subservient to the things she defines?

“Who shall guard the guards themselves?”

There’s no biblical basis for purgatory.
Nice topic change… The dance continues…

How is a fallable man, this James White guy, of any use to this conversation? If he wants to be relevant somehow, then he needs to join the conversation.

The Church is either what she says she is or there is no christianity in the world. Unless of course, it make one feel better to ignore Church history altogether.
 
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