Commandments

[Robbinson]

Will comment. Any other scriptures in the bible?

I’ve already provided some (to the contrary, you haven’t provided any scriptural basis for belief that the mosaic law existed before sinai) - I’ll wait for your comment Blessings,

Brian

 

[Robbinson]

Is the Sabbath for the Jews only? No

The other nine commandments are not “just for Jews.” God wrote “Ten Commandments” on stone, not just nine (See Deut. 4:12, 13; Ex. 20). Does “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” and “Do not bear false witness” apply only to Jews?

The Sabbath commandment is for the “stranger” too. The fourth commandment itself says the “stranger” is to rest on the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10. “Strangers” are non-Jews, or Gentiles. Thus the Sabbath applies to them too. Read also Isaiah 56:6.

Isaiah said Gentiles should keep the Sabbath. “Also the sons of the stranger … every one that keeps the Sabbath … for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.” Isaiah 56:6, 7. Thus the Sabbath is for Gentiles and “all people,” not just for Jews.

written with love

The Torah and the mosaic law was given to the Jews. God did provide that those non-jews (foreigners) who followed His law would be “his” - this is a forshadowing of the new covenant when Jew and Gentile would be united and made one (echad) in Christ. Isn’t that amazing! But to your point, yes, while the mosiac law applied to Israel, those non-jews who associated with and became adopted member of the Jewish people observed the mosaic law. The most famous of these is Ruth (from whom Jesus is a descendant) - she was not a “jew” but made her jewish mother in law (jewish)'s people “her people”.

This ultimately has no bearing on the question at hand of whether the Sabbath continues as a commandment post new covenant or, if it does, whether it is fulfilled in our “rest in Christ” (as I suggest) or may only be fulfilled by physical rest from labor, as you suggest.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[adrift]

Of course not. The 10 commandments did not exist in Genesis. They were given to Moses later, as attested in Scripture in the books of Exodus and Deuteronomy. Hope that helps.

That is the point I was making. BTTG was saying that the Ten Commandments existed at the time of Adam and Eve. If BTTG believe that, than he should tell me what commandment they broke. As you say however, they didn’t exist at that time.

 

[kepha1]

Scriptures you want me to comment on:

Matthew 28:1
And in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre.

Mark 16:2
And very early in the morning, the first day of the week, they come to the sepulchre, the sun being now risen.

Mark 16:9
But he rising early the first day of the week, appeared first to Mary Magdalen, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

Luke 24:1
And on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared.

John 20:1
And on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalen cometh early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre; and she saw the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

These verses show that it was already the practice of the Early Church.

My reply

I don’t see how the above verses have anything to do with worshiping on the first day of the week.

Of course you don’t. You hold an outdated Jewish observance to be greater than the Resurrection. The point of the above verses is to define “first day of the week”, which you deny.

Jesus could have rose on Saturday. I believe He was honoring His fathers commandment and observing the Sabbath day.

By rising from the dead on Saturday? Do the SDA’s teach that?

As a side note: Luke wrote about 30 years after the death of Christ, the Sabbath Day commandment ( Decalogue) was still observed by Luke. Notice the words " rested on the sabbath day according to the commandment." It is believed that the book of Luke was written in the early 60’s. Therefore, Luke did not say they rested on the commandment that “was”, which would indicate that the sabbath is no longer observed. If the sabbath was no longer observed at the time of Luke’s writtings in the early 60’s, Luke would have written the verse as … rested on the sabbath that “was” according to the commandment.

Luke’s statement is that they rested on the sabbath day “according to the” commandment ( that still is being observed during Luke’s time).
As a side note, they observed the Saturday Sabbath because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. He was in the tomb! The whole premise of a Sunday Sabbath is the Resurrection. Luke 23 refers to 33 A.D., not early 60’s .

*Luke 23 *55The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. 56Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

**You stated **

Acts Of Apostles 20:7

And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight.

**My reply **n the first place we wonder if the writer of the tract realized that the meeting in question was not on what is now known as Sunday at all, but was at the time we now speak of as Saturday night, or Saturday evening!

According to the Bible method of reckoning time, each day began at sundown. (Leviticus 23:32; Mark 1:32) Hence the evening of the first day was the evening preceding the first day, and not the evening following the first day, which was part of the second day. The meeting was therefore on the evening after the Sabbath, now known as Saturday evening. And to make matters worse for those who try to see in this some evidence that Paul was then keeping the first day, the record plainly reads that Paul was then planning to travel the next day! This he would not have done at all if their supposition were correct that he was then a Sunday observer!

You are just repeating your denial of the biblical definition of first day of the week.

 

[Robbinson]

That is the point I was making. BTTG was saying that the Ten Commandments existed at the time of Adam and Eve. If BTTG believe that, than he should tell me what commandment they broke. As you say however, they didn’t exist at that time.

I agree with you, but to be fair to BTTG (without agreeing that the 10 commandments was given to man before sinai), I do believe, and the Catholic Church teaches that there has always been a “natural law” written in our consciousness - this ‘natural moral law’ is similar to the 10 commandments - this is the “law” the Gentiles had (referenced in the NT), albeit there were not under the law of moses.

The first sin was pride and disobeying God’s commandment not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Ultimately - I do personally believe that God’s moral law has never changed - it was first written in our conscience (so Adam and Eve knew it fully); it then remained in our conscience but due to our inherited original sin, was blurred and buried. So God wrote is law in Tablets on Stone (the 10 commandments). This is the moral law - but also included the Sabbath I believe as a glimpse of what “rest” was like in the garden of eden and a for-shadowing of what “rest” would be like again when the Messiah came.

The new law written in our hearts after Pentecost is the 10 commandments - but we now have achieved that “rest” in Christ - so we fulfill that commandment in Christ.

This is just what I believe (and while not expressly stated this way by the Church, is not inconsistent with Church doctrine).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[kepha1]

Should the writer insist upon our using in this single particular instance the Roman reckoning of time, in order to help out in his impossible quest for evidence for Sunday keeping, he will then get into still deeper difficulties, for the principal feature of the meeting, the breaking of bread, took place after midnight and hence on Monday, and Monday would be the day he should observe if he prefers to follow such flimsy inferences! After all there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that the celebration of the Lord’s Supper was confined to any particular day of the week.

It does not say he preached after midnight.
*Acts 20:7 *
And on the first day of the week, (Sunday) when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow and he continued his speech until midnight.

Also, Paul met with them till late at night. Would this be a custom of worshiping? And Paul was getting older at this time, and he probably knew it would be his last talk with them… as it was, this was the last time Paul spoke with them. And last, the breaking of bread was a daily custom at that time…Acts 2:46.

They assembled on the first day of the week to Break Bread. Daily Breaking of the Bread in Acts 2 does not contradict the Breaking of the Bread in Acts 20, and daily Breaking of the Bread does not change the biblical definition of first day of the week.

**You stated **

1 Corinthians 16:2

On the first day of the week let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made.

**My reply **Lets read precept upon precept, line upon line
(1Co 16:1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. (1Co 16:2) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.(1Co 16:3) And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

Paul was writing special appeals to the churches in Asia Minor, because many of the Christians in Jerusalem were suffering greatly for lack of food and daily necessities. Paul asked the church at Corinth to gather food, clothing, etc., and store it up at home until he could send men to transport it to Jerusalem. The expression “lay by him in store” in the original Greek gives the clear connotation of putting aside at home.

There was no service held on the first day of the week.

The gathering up and storing was to be done on that day. Why did Paul suggest that this work be done on Sunday, and what was involved in getting it done?

First of all, the letter would have been shared with the church on the Sabbath when they were all gathered for worship. The first opportunity to do the work would be the next day - the first day of the week. Keep in mind that there was an apparent food shortage in Jerusalem, and the need was not primarily for money. Such famine conditions were not unusual in areas of the Middle East, as Luke reminds us in Acts 11:28-30.

written with love

Sunday, the first day of the week, was a practical time to collect for Paul’s material needs because that is when they were all together.

 

[adrift]

Scriptures you want me to comment on:

, Church.

My reply

I don’t see how the above verses have anything to do with worshiping on the first day of the week. Jesus could have rose on Saturday. I believe He was honoring His fathers commandment and observing the Sabbath day.
As a side note: Luke wrote about 30 years after the death of Christ, the Sabbath Day commandment ( Decalogue) was still observed by Luke. Notice the words " rested on the sabbath day according to the commandment." It is believed that the book of Luke was written in the early 60’s. Therefore, Luke did not say they rested on the commandment that “was”, which would indicate that the sabbath is no longer observed. If the sabbath was no longer observed at the time of Luke’s writtings in the early 60’s, Luke would have written the verse as … rested on the sabbath that “was” according to the commandment.
Luke’s statement is that they rested on the sabbath day “according to the” commandment ( that still is being observed during Luke’s time).

The style of writing that Luke employs proves nothing either way. Take a look at Chapter three. He does not wirte that in the past tense. There are other places where he does not use past tense. That would be so boring if he did. He varied his style as any good writer does. It was one reason I had a hard time reading the Book of Mormon. The prose style was awful.

**You stated ** Acts Of Apostles 20:7
And on the first day of the week, when we were assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed with them, being to depart on the morrow: and he continued his speech until midnight.

**My reply ** n the first place we wonder if the writer of the tract realized that the meeting in question was not on what is now known as Sunday at all, but was at the time we now speak of as Saturday night, or Saturday evening!

According to the Bible method of reckoning time, each day began at sundown. (Leviticus 23:32; Mark 1:32) Hence the evening of the first day was the evening preceding the first day, and not the evening following the first day, which was part of the second day. The meeting was therefore on the evening after the Sabbath, now known as Saturday evening. And to make matters worse for those who try to see in this some evidence that Paul was then keeping the first day, the record plainly reads that Paul was then planning to travel the next day! This he would not have done at all if their supposition were correct that he was then a Sunday observer!

Should the writer insist upon our using in this single particular instance the Roman reckoning of time, in order to help out in his impossible quest for evidence for Sunday keeping, he will then get into still deeper difficulties, for the principal feature of the meeting, the breaking of bread, took place after midnight and hence on Monday, and Monday would be the day he should observe if he prefers to follow such flimsy inferences! After all there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that the celebration of the Lord’s Supper was confined to any particular day of the week.

• Hard Nuts Cracked, H.M.S. Richards,

Also, Paul met with them till late at night. Would this be a custom of worshiping? And Paul was getting older at this time, and he probably knew it would be his last talk with them… as it was, this was the last time Paul spoke with them. And last, the breaking of bread was a daily custom at that time…Acts 2:46.

.

.

For right now I will say o.k. you are right that Paul was teaching on Saturday night But the tomorrow he refers to wouldl have to be Sunday night since a day was from sun down to sun down. It was highly unlikely that he would start a trip at night so more reasonably he would have started Monday moring. Thus the diffculty you raise is solved.

 

[BTTG]

That does not tell me which command of the ten.

The commandment that was broken out of the 10 commandments was the first, you shall have no other gods before me.

Eve believed and was obedient to the serpent rather then God.

 

[BTTG]

I agree with you, but to be fair to BTTG (without agreeing that the 10 commandments was given to man before sinai), I do believe, and the Catholic Church teaches that there has always been a “natural law” written in our consciousness - this ‘natural moral law’ is similar to the 10 commandments - this is the “law” the Gentiles had (referenced in the NT), albeit there were not under the law of moses.

The first sin was pride and disobeying God’s commandment not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Ultimately - I do personally believe that God’s moral law has never changed - it was first written in our conscience (so Adam and Eve knew it fully); it then remained in our conscience but due to our inherited original sin, was blurred and buried. So God wrote is law in Tablets on Stone (the 10 commandments). This is the moral law - but also included the Sabbath I believe as a glimpse of what “rest” was like in the garden of eden and a for-shadowing of what “rest” would be like again when the Messiah came.

The new law written in our hearts after Pentecost is the 10 commandments - but we now have achieved that “rest” in Christ - so we fulfill that commandment in Christ.

This is just what I believe (and while not expressly stated this way by the Church, is not inconsistent with Church doctrine).

Blessings,

Brian

Hi Brian

Sin is the transgression of what “law” ?

 

[BTTG]

Of course you don’t. You hold an outdated Jewish observance to be greater than the Resurrection. The point of the above verses is to define “first day of the week”, which you deny.

By rising from the dead on Saturday? Do the SDA’s teach that?

As a side note, they observed the Saturday Sabbath because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. He was in the tomb! The whole premise of a Sunday Sabbath is the Resurrection. Luke 23 refers to 33 A.D., not early 60’s .

*Luke 23 *55The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. 56Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

You are just repeating your denial of the biblical definition of first day of the week.

I thought the resurrection is observed by the ceremony of baptism?

Jesus states while in the flesh referring to baptism, the Holy spirit, Passover. Jesus three times predicts Hid death and Resurrection with no mention of honoring His resurrection on Sunday. While Jesus was talking and instructing about the Lord’s supper, this would have been an opportune time to mention about the observance day of His resurrection.

I am not denying the first day of the week is Sunday. And Jesus rose on Sunday. No where in the bible does it say that Sunday is the day of worship, the day all should cease from there labors, a day that has been blessed and sanctified by God.

 

[Robbinson]

Hi Brian

Sin is the transgression of what “law” ?

Sin is the transgression of God’s law (what ever commandments God has provided us at a given time). So, for a Jew, it would have been a sin to eat pork before the new covenant - but for those in faith (Jew or Gentile) eating such would not be a sin.

I believe that before Sinai God’s law was a natural moral law - much like the 10 commandments (but didn’t include the sabbath) - it was a law of conscience. I believe that at Sinai, Israel was given the entire mosaic law (613 commandments) and sin would have included breaking any part of that law (which would be deemed to be breaking all of it).

I believe in the new covenant it is a sin to violate the law written in our hearts. There is some debate among Christians as to what that law is - some say the golden rule, some say its a law of “love”; I believe its the 10 commandments (yet once again, i believe the sabbath commandment is fulfilled in our rest in Christ)

What do you believe “sin” is before sinai, after sinai up to christ and now?

Blessings.

Brian

 

[BTTG]

The Torah and the mosaic law was given to the Jews. God did provide that those non-jews (foreigners) who followed His law would be “his” - this is a forshadowing of the new covenant when Jew and Gentile would be united and made one (echad) in Christ. Isn’t that amazing! But to your point, yes, while the mosiac law applied to Israel, those non-jews who associated with and became adopted member of the Jewish people observed the mosaic law. The most famous of these is Ruth (from whom Jesus is a descendant) - she was not a “jew” but made her jewish mother in law (jewish)'s people “her people”.

This ultimately has no bearing on the question at hand of whether the Sabbath continues as a commandment post new covenant or, if it does, whether it is fulfilled in our “rest in Christ” (as I suggest) or may only be fulfilled by physical rest from labor, as you suggest.

Blessings,

Brian

I was just stating this Brian because many believe the 10 commandments were only given to the Jews. Many say that it was just a Jewish law.

It is just that I find it very difficult for God knowing the past, present and future, to have one of His commandments that He gave to all people in the OT, now in the NT to have a different meaning of the Sabbath Day.
I do agree with you that we need to rest in Christ everyday.

 

[Robbinson]

I was just stating this Brian because many believe the 10 commandments were only given to the Jews. Many say that it was just a Jewish law.

It is just that I find it very difficult for God knowing the past, present and future, to have one of His commandments that He gave to all people in the OT, now in the NT to have a different meaning of the Sabbath Day.
I do agree with you that we need to rest in Christ everyday.

Thanks Craig - I understand your perspective. However, by the same token, God gave us “only” plants to eat in the garden of Eden (that was His law); then God gave us “all animals” to eat (after Noah); then God gave Israel (and only as a command to Israel), “only clean animals” to eat; then God made “all animals clean”. Do you have a similar problem with that?

Its not that God is changing His mind - it was always His plan. That is why we read in Jeremiah (well before the new covenant) that some day in the future there would be a “new covenant” that would be “expressly different” than the mosaic covenant. Not a change in mind - but a different part of God’s time line for his plan of revelation and commandments for us.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[BTTG]

The Torah and the mosaic law was given to the Jews. God did provide that those non-jews (foreigners) who followed His law would be “his” - this is a forshadowing of the new covenant when Jew and Gentile would be united and made one (echad) in Christ. Isn’t that amazing! But to your point, yes, while the mosiac law applied to Israel, those non-jews who associated with and became adopted member of the Jewish people observed the mosaic law. The most famous of these is Ruth (from whom Jesus is a descendant) - she was not a “jew” but made her jewish mother in law (jewish)'s people “her people”.

This ultimately has no bearing on the question at hand of whether the Sabbath continues as a commandment post new covenant or, if it does, whether it is fulfilled in our “rest in Christ” (as I suggest) or may only be fulfilled by physical rest from labor, as you suggest.

Blessings,

Brian

Hi Brian

Oh boy, I may have not explained myself correctly. Observing the Sabbath day is not ONLY physical rest, but honoring our Creator on the day that He blessed and sanctified. AND we rest in Christ everyday of the week. The belief in the Sabbath day is found in the Decalogue. The Sabbath is much much more then just a physical rest.

If you do not have the Sabbath Day commandment, how do you know what “god” made the 10 commandments. How do you explain to a non-believer, who wants to know who our God is.

Sorry for any misguided info.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

I thought the resurrection is observed by the ceremony of baptism?

Jesus states while in the flesh referring to baptism, the Holy spirit, Passover. Jesus three times predicts Hid death and Resurrection with no mention of honoring His resurrection on Sunday. While Jesus was talking and instructing about the Lord’s supper, this would have been an opportune time to mention about the observance day of His resurrection.

I am not denying the first day of the week is Sunday. And Jesus rose on Sunday. No where in the bible does it say that Sunday is the day of worship, the day all should cease from there labors, a day that has been blessed and sanctified by God.

baptism and the resurrection of Christ…(Gal 3:27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[BTTG]

Thanks Craig - I understand your perspective. However, by the same token, God gave us “only” plants to eat in the garden of Eden (that was His law); then God gave us “all animals” to eat (after Noah); then God gave Israel (and only as a command to Israel), “only clean animals” to eat; then God made “all animals clean”. Do you have a similar problem with that?

Its not that God is changing His mind - it was always His plan. That is why we read in Jeremiah (well before the new covenant) that some day in the future there would be a “new covenant” that would be “expressly different” than the mosaic covenant. Not a change in mind - but a different part of God’s time line for his plan of revelation and commandments for us.

Blessings,

Brian

Am I committing a sin if I do not observe Sunday as God’s blessed and sanctified day ?

 

[Robbinson]

Am I committing a sin if I do not observe Sunday as God’s blessed and sanctified day ?

Actually, according to the current discipline of the Catholic Church, yes. On the basis of authority given to the Church by Christ. As a matter of pure scripture interpretation (other than obeying the authority given the Church), no.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[BTTG]

Sin is the transgression of God’s law (what ever commandments God has provided us at a given time). So, for a Jew, it would have been a sin to eat pork before the new covenant - but for those in faith (Jew or Gentile) eating such would not be a sin.

I believe that before Sinai God’s law was a natural moral law - much like the 10 commandments (but didn’t include the sabbath) - it was a law of conscience. I believe that at Sinai, Israel was given the entire mosaic law (613 commandments) and sin would have included breaking any part of that law (which would be deemed to be breaking all of it).

I believe in the new covenant it is a sin to violate the law written in our hearts. There is some debate among Christians as to what that law is - some say the golden rule, some say its a law of “love”; I believe its the 10 commandments (yet once again, i believe the sabbath commandment is fulfilled in our rest in Christ)

What do you believe “sin” is before sinai, after sinai up to christ and now?

Blessings.

Brian

Before I get ahead of myself, what was the OT covenant with Israel ?

thank you

 

[BTTG]

Actually, according to the current discipline of the Catholic Church, yes. On the basis of authority given to the Church by Christ. As a matter of pure scripture interpretation (other than obeying the authority given the Church), no.

Blessings,

Brian

You are a very sincere man. So, who do I believe the Catholic Church, or scripture?

 

[BTTG]

Sin is the transgression of God’s law (what ever commandments God has provided us at a given time). So, for a Jew, it would have been a sin to eat pork before the new covenant - but for those in faith (Jew or Gentile) eating such would not be a sin.

I believe that before Sinai God’s law was a natural moral law - much like the 10 commandments (but didn’t include the sabbath) - it was a law of conscience. I believe that at Sinai, Israel was given the entire mosaic law (613 commandments) and sin would have included breaking any part of that law (which would be deemed to be breaking all of it).

I believe in the new covenant it is a sin to violate the law written in our hearts. There is some debate among Christians as to what that law is - some say the golden rule, some say its a law of “love”; I believe its the 10 commandments (yet once again, i believe the sabbath commandment is fulfilled in our rest in Christ)

What do you believe “sin” is before sinai, after sinai up to christ and now?

Blessings.

Brian

What law is Paul referring to…(Rom 4:16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

thank you