Commandments

[Robbinson]

By blessing and sanctifying the 7th day Sabbath/Saturday before sin entered this earth, it could not be a "shadow ", as all “shadow” came after sin entered this earth.
Abraham kept the 10 commandments including the Sabbath day…(Gen 26:5) BecauseH6118 thatH834 AbrahamH85 obeyedH8085 my voice,H6963 and keptH8104 my charge,H4931 my commandments,H4687 my statutes,H2708 and my laws.H8451

• Strongs concordance indicates that " my laws-H8451" is the Decalogue/10 commandments.

Craig - I disagree with you - the commandments and statutes that Abraham followed did not include the Decalogue - because it was not given yet. the word used for law there in Hebrew is “Torah”. That word is used to refer to the laws of God, without distinction between the Decalogue and other laws. Once the mosaic law was established, this actually included 613 commandments (of which the Decalogue was a part) - but I don’t see you suggesting the Abrahm followed the 613 commandments (and he couldn’t - for the same reason, they were not given until Mt. Sinai). Before the mosaic covenant - these were whatever laws/commandments God gave to Abraham. There is nothing in scripture, or other history, to suggest that Abraham or others observed the “Sabbath commandment” prior to Sinai.

Since I don’t believe the Sabbath commandment even applied in Adam and Eve’s day, I’m not sure what you were getting at in your first point - but when the “commandment” to observe the Sabbath was given to Israel at Mt. Sinai - I do believe that was in fact a shadow of the day when we would rest in Yeshua.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that the “laws” in the above verse is “Divine Law is that which is enacted by God and made known to man through revelation.”

The moral law was written in our hearts and still is and these are the moral principles embedded within the Decalogue - loving God will all our hearts and loving our neighbor as ourself. I honor the sabbath, like every day, now that I am in Christ - its not that the Sabbath ceased to be holy - its they “every day” is now our day of rest with Christ.

Brian, I think we need to be very careful and know for sure if a day in Genesis is a 24 hour period, or a longer period of time. If it were a longer period of time, this could bring into questions that the earth could be billions of years old, thus bringing into question the evolution theory( of stupidity ). I strongly believe that evening and morning were/still are 24 hour periods of time. We see in Gen 1:4-5 that the Night was darkness and Day was light combining to make the first day.

Craig - and you have liberty to hold that belief. Personally, my faith does not turn on whether the earth is thousands (literal 24 hour day creation) or millions (long periods) of years old and, candidly, both are “literal” readings turning on the interpretation of days. I actually believe it “more likely” that each day is a long period of time. Science and Faith are not enemies - that co-exist and Genesis was not written as a “science book”. But reiterating - I think either interpretation is possible. As to evolution - similarly, I personally believe only in “micro” evolution (evolution with species) rather than Darwinian macro evolution - but if found out some day definitively that macro evolution occurred, again, my faith would not be affected because I would know that God choose that design to lead to the creation of the first man with a soul (Adam).

I respect your “strong” belief in 24 hour periods of time - but you actually have no scriptural basis at all to support that strong belief (reiterating that you might be correct, or not, in any event) as scripture doesn’t tell us what the “day” meant in those verses and, as I pointed out, we have not “sun” until day 4 (I believe - without double checking the actual day).

I agree with your statement. Israel was so legalistic and the Sabbath day was a burden to them. That is why Jesus came to correct Israel and exemplify the true meaning of the Sabbath day. That is why Jesus preached on the Sabbath. Also in (Joh 15:10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
I don’t believe Jesus would come to defend the Sabbath day of worship and then upon His death, without telling any of His disciples, that the Sabbath day was to be abolished, that a commandment was to be abolished/ or the meaning of the day was to be changed.
I believe the Sabbath day/Saturday is to not be changed to Sunday to honor the resurrection of Jesus, but as it was meant from the beginning of creation-Adam , to honor the God who created the earth and the skies and all that is in them. For if you remove the original meaning ( Exo. 20:8-11) , of the Sabbath day we do not know who our God is. The fourth commandment is the commandment that gives to us both the name and the title of the lawgiver. It is the only one of the commandments that shows whose authority the law is given.

Actually - Jesus told us expressly he came to “fulfill” the law (Matt 5:17) and he did - and while he said not one jot of the law would change until “all is fulfilled” - he sacrificial work was fulfilled at his death and resurrection. If you read Matt 5:17 as suggesting the law continues forever, then you should be following all of the “Torah” (all 613 commandments) (yet scripture, Galatians and Hebrew) makes it expressly clear this is not so. How do you reconcile that thinking (scripturally)?

Blessings,

Brian

 

[meltzerboy]

Craig - I disagree with you - the commandments and statutes that Abraham followed did not include the Decalogue - because it was not given yet. the word used for law there in Hebrew is “Torah”. That word is used to refer to the laws of God, without distinction between the Decalogue and other laws. Once the mosaic law was established, this actually included 613 commandments (of which the Decalogue was a part) - but I don’t see you suggesting the Abrahm followed the 613 commandments (and he couldn’t - for the same reason, they were not given until Mt. Sinai). Before the mosaic covenant - these were whatever laws/commandments God gave to Abraham. There is nothing in scripture, or other history, to suggest that Abraham or others observed the “Sabbath commandment” prior to Sinai.

Since I don’t believe the Sabbath commandment even applied in Adam and Eve’s day, I’m not sure what you were getting at in your first point - but when the “commandment” to observe the Sabbath was given to Israel at Mt. Sinai - I do believe that was in fact a shadow of the day when we would rest in Yeshua.

The moral law was written in our hearts and still is and these are the moral principles embedded within the Decalogue - loving God will all our hearts and loving our neighbor as ourself. I honor the sabbath, like every day, now that I am in Christ - its not that the Sabbath ceased to be holy - its they “every day” is now our day of rest with Christ.

Craig - and you have liberty to hold that belief. Personally, my faith does not turn on whether the earth is thousands (literal 24 hour day creation) or millions (long periods) of years old and, candidly, both are “literal” readings turning on the interpretation of days. I actually believe it “more likely” that each day is a long period of time. Science and Faith are not enemies - that co-exist and Genesis was not written as a “science book”. But reiterating - I think either interpretation is possible. As to evolution - similarly, I personally believe only in “micro” evolution (evolution with species) rather than Darwinian macro evolution - but if found out some day definitively that macro evolution occurred, again, my faith would not be affected because I would know that God choose that design to lead to the creation of the first man with a soul (Adam).

I respect your “strong” belief in 24 hour periods of time - but you actually have no scriptural basis at all to support that strong belief (reiterating that you might be correct, or not, in any event) as scripture doesn’t tell us what the “day” meant in those verses and, as I pointed out, we have not “sun” until day 4 (I believe - without double checking the actual day).

Actually - Jesus told us expressly he came to “fulfill” the law (Matt 5:17) and he did - and while he said not one jot of the law would change until “all is fulfilled” - he sacrificial work was fulfilled at his death and resurrection. If you read Matt 5:17 as suggesting the law continues forever, then you should be following all of the “Torah” (all 613 commandments) (yet scripture, Galatians and Hebrew) makes it expressly clear this is not so. How do you reconcile that thinking (scripturally)?

Blessings,

Brian

As you may know, Brian, even Torah Judaism does not follow all 613 commandments today. Many of them, in fact, simply cannot be followed in the modern world due to the destruction of the Temple and for other reasons as well. However, I understand the gist of your argument and agree with parts of it.

 

[meltzerboy]

I’m curious regarding how Seventh-Day Adventists specifically honor the Sabbath. In other words, what form does “resting” take on the Sabbath for people of your faith? In addition to prayer, which tasks is one not permitted to perform and which are permitted?

 

[BTTG]

Craig - I disagree with you - the commandments and statutes that Abraham followed did not include the Decalogue - because it was not given yet. the word used for law there in Hebrew is “Torah”. That word is used to refer to the laws of God, without distinction between the Decalogue and other laws. Once the mosaic law was established, this actually included 613 commandments (of which the Decalogue was a part) - but I don’t see you suggesting the Abrahm followed the 613 commandments (and he couldn’t - for the same reason, they were not given until Mt. Sinai). Before the mosaic covenant - these were whatever laws/commandments God gave to Abraham. There is nothing in scripture, or other history, to suggest that Abraham or others observed the “Sabbath commandment” prior to Sinai.

Response - Hi Brian - great discussion. The laws of God included the Sabbath day at creation. The 7th day Sabbath day is a day that God sanctified Gen 2:2, which means to be kept holy , to dedicate, to consecrate. We know God knows the beginning from the end. I don’t believe God would make this very sacred 7th day at creation, ( knowing that Adam would sin) and then a short time later make void the sacredness of the 7th day for over 1,500 years until He gave it to Moses and then re-establish it for Israel and then abolish the original meaning of the Sabbath day after Jesus and then re-establish the Sabbath day in the new heavens and the new earth.

The moral law was written in our hearts and still is and these are the moral principles embedded within the Decalogue - loving God will all our hearts and loving our neighbor as ourself. I honor the sabbath, like every day, now that I am in Christ - its not that the Sabbath ceased to be holy - its they “every day” is now our day of rest with Christ.

**Response- I agree with you, however, the meaning of the Sabbath day has been changed . The Sabbath day was a specific day to stop and worship our creator. **

I respect your “strong” belief in 24 hour periods of time - but you actually have no scriptural basis at all to support that strong belief (reiterating that you might be correct, or not, in any event) as scripture doesn’t tell us what the “day” meant in those verses and, as I pointed out, we have not “sun” until day 4 (I believe - without double checking the actual day).

Response - hey Brian would you explain to me again about why the sun not being created until day four makes a difference, thanks.

Actually - Jesus told us expressly he came to “fulfill” the law (Matt 5:17) and he did - and while he said not one jot of the law would change until “all is fulfilled” - he sacrificial work was fulfilled at his death and resurrection. If you read Matt 5:17 as suggesting the law continues forever, then you should be following all of the “Torah” (all 613 commandments) (yet scripture, Galatians and Hebrew) makes it expressly clear this is not so. How do you reconcile that thinking (scripturally)?

**Response - Jesus came to fulfill the 10 commandments and not sin and fulfill all what the prophets had foretold, as only He could, Jesus did not come to abolish the law.Brian I know you know, but we have to take the verse in context. Jesus said “till heaven and earth pass”. The earth and heaven have not passed.

(Mat 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Mat 5:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
**

If you read Matt 5:17 as suggesting the law continues forever, then you should be following all of the “Torah” (all 613 commandments) (yet scripture, Galatians and Hebrew) makes it expressly clear this is not so. How do you reconcile that thinking (scripturally)?

B]Response - Some people I talk to think that there is just the Torah and that the Decalogue and the civil/ceremonial/ordinances laws cannot be divided. God did say that there were 10 commandments. If the law/10 commandments ended at the cross then not only the original Sabbath meaning ended but also the 9 others. There is no such thing as blending the moral law/10 commandments and the 613 commandments as one. I will go into detail next posting. I will be discussing Deut. 4:13, 14, Deut 31:9, 24-26, 2 Kings 21:8, Dan. 9:11, Exo 25:16. The 613 commandments were abolished at the cross.

written with love

 

[meltzerboy]

Robbinson;7823003:

Craig - I disagree with you - the commandments and statutes that Abraham followed did not include the Decalogue - because it was not given yet. the word used for law there in Hebrew is “Torah”. That word is used to refer to the laws of God, without distinction between the Decalogue and other laws. Once the mosaic law was established, this actually included 613 commandments (of which the Decalogue was a part) - but I don’t see you suggesting the Abrahm followed the 613 commandments (and he couldn’t - for the same reason, they were not given until Mt. Sinai). Before the mosaic covenant - these were whatever laws/commandments God gave to Abraham. There is nothing in scripture, or other history, to suggest that Abraham or others observed the “Sabbath commandment” prior to Sinai.

Response - Hi Brian - great discussion. The laws of God included the Sabbath day at creation. The 7th day Sabbath day is a day that God sanctified Gen 2:2, which means to be kept holy , to dedicate, to consecrate. We know God knows the beginning from the end. I don’t believe God would make this very sacred 7th day at creation, ( knowing that Adam would sin) and then a short time later make void the sacredness of the 7th day for over 1,500 years until He gave it to Moses and then re-establish it for Israel and then abolish the original meaning of the Sabbath day after Jesus and then re-establish the Sabbath day in the new heavens and the new earth.

The moral law was written in our hearts and still is and these are the moral principles embedded within the Decalogue - loving God will all our hearts and loving our neighbor as ourself. I honor the sabbath, like every day, now that I am in Christ - its not that the Sabbath ceased to be holy - its they “every day” is now our day of rest with Christ.

**Response- I agree with you, however, the meaning of the Sabbath day has been changed . The Sabbath day was a specific day to stop and worship our creator. **

I respect your “strong” belief in 24 hour periods of time - but you actually have no scriptural basis at all to support that strong belief (reiterating that you might be correct, or not, in any event) as scripture doesn’t tell us what the “day” meant in those verses and, as I pointed out, we have not “sun” until day 4 (I believe - without double checking the actual day).

Response - hey Brian would you explain to me again about why the sun not being created until day four makes a difference, thanks.

Actually - Jesus told us expressly he came to “fulfill” the law (Matt 5:17) and he did - and while he said not one jot of the law would change until “all is fulfilled” - he sacrificial work was fulfilled at his death and resurrection. If you read Matt 5:17 as suggesting the law continues forever, then you should be following all of the “Torah” (all 613 commandments) (yet scripture, Galatians and Hebrew) makes it expressly clear this is not so. How do you reconcile that thinking (scripturally)?

**Response - Jesus came to fulfill the 10 commandments and not sin and fulfill all what the prophets had foretold, as only He could, Jesus did not come to abolish the law.Brian I know you know, but we have to take the verse in context. Jesus said “till heaven and earth pass”. The earth and heaven have not passed.

(Mat 5:17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Mat 5:18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (Mat 5:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
**

If you read Matt 5:17 as suggesting the law continues forever, then you should be following all of the “Torah” (all 613 commandments) (yet scripture, Galatians and Hebrew) makes it expressly clear this is not so. How do you reconcile that thinking (scripturally)?

B]Response - Some people I talk to think that there is just the Torah and that the Decalogue and the civil/ceremonial/ordinances laws cannot be divided. God did say that there were 10 commandments. If the law/10 commandments ended at the cross then not only the original Sabbath meaning ended but also the 9 others. There is no such thing as blending the moral law/10 commandments and the 613 commandments as one. I will go into detail next posting. I will be discussing Deut. 4:13, 14, Deut 31:9, 24-26, 2 Kings 21:8, Dan. 9:11, Exo 25:16. The 613 commandments were abolished at the cross.

written with love

You distinguish between the moral law of the Ten Commandments and the Torah. However, the Torah consists of moral precepts as well as ceremonial rituals. Even the latter are viewed by Jews as part of the spiritual nature of the Law, since they are to be fulfilled as Moses taught with a sense of converting the mundane behaviors of life into something sanctified. Thus the kosher laws, for example, are designed to make the foods we eat and the way they are prepared into a holy behavior, so that we do not take these activities for granted. The whole Torah is the Law, divinely inspired and given to Moses by G-d. One cannot separate the Torah as an adjunct of the Ten Commandments.

 

[Robbinson]

Response - Hi Brian - great discussion. The laws of God included the Sabbath day at creation. The 7th day Sabbath day is a day that God sanctified Gen 2:2, which means to be kept holy , to dedicate, to consecrate. We know God knows the beginning from the end. I don’t believe God would make this very sacred 7th day at creation, ( knowing that Adam would sin) and then a short time later make void the sacredness of the 7th day for over 1,500 years until He gave it to Moses and then re-establish it for Israel and then abolish the original meaning of the Sabbath day after Jesus and then re-establish the Sabbath day in the new heavens and the new earth.

Craig - agreed - great discussion and thanks for your charitable demeanor - even though we disagree. The distinction I am making is between “God blessing the 7th day” (which he did in Genesis, and God commanding that Israel observe the Sabbath with rest, etc (which did not occur until Sinai). Please show me where scripture and/or history suggests that Israel or others “observed the Sabbath commandment” to rest on the Sabbath (7th) day prior to Mt. Sinai.

**Response- I agree with you, however, the meaning of the Sabbath day has been changed . The Sabbath day was a specific day to stop and worship our creator. **

The Sabbath day was a specific day under the mosaic covenant, I believe, pointing to fulfillment in Yeshua. Just as the passover had a greater fulfillment in the sacrifice of Christ

Response - hey Brian would you explain to me again about why the sun not being created until day four makes a difference, thanks.

The fact that a 24 hour day is measured by the rising and setting of the Sun and rising and setting of the moon - neither of which appear until the 4th day in creation - so what makes you thing the first 3 days were 24 hour days? (they may have been - or not).

**Response - Jesus came to fulfill the 10 commandments and not sin and fulfill all what the prophets had foretold, as only He could, Jesus did not come to abolish the law.Brian I know you know, but we have to take the verse in context. Jesus said “till heaven and earth pass”. The earth and heaven have not passed. **

Craig - two reactions here. (1) the veres then continues . . . “until all is fulfilled” and the sacrifice of Yeshua fulfilled his redemptive work and (2) to Jews, the Temple was a symbol of the world and its destruction was symbol of earth and heaven passing away. Indeed, I believe this understanding is a key to understanding much of the prophecy of Daniel and Revelation and Matthew- that there was an immediate fulfillment with the destruction of the 2nd temple which ended scriptural Judaism (and led to the birth of rabbinic Judaism, which is quite different) - although there will be a secondary fulfillment in the second coming of Christ.

Some people I talk to think that there is just the Torah and that the Decalogue and the civil/ceremonial/ordinances laws cannot be divided. God did say that there were 10 commandments. If the law/10 commandments ended at the cross then not only the original Sabbath meaning ended but also the 9 others. There is no such thing as blending the moral law/10 commandments and the 613 commandments as one. I will go into detail next posting. I will be discussing Deut. 4:13, 14, Deut 31:9, 24-26, 2 Kings 21:8, Dan. 9:11, Exo 25:16. The 613 commandments were abolished at the cross.

I look forward to your post - but I do in fact believe the entire mosaic law was fulfilled by Christ, but we are now under the law of Christ (Paul says he is “not” under the law of Moses, but “is” under the law of Christ - pointing to a difference). The law of Christ is the moral law written in our hearts - which is the 10 commandments (but don’t get excited re: the Sabbath quite yet - the 10 commandments include moral laws we fulfill in our love of God and neighbors, and a rest on the Sabbath which we still satisfy and fulfill in our rest in Christ - the “solemnity of the Sabbath” is celebrated on the Lord’s Day -

Blessings,

Brian

 

[BTTG]

I’m curious regarding how Seventh-Day Adventists specifically honor the Sabbath. In other words, what form does “resting” take on the Sabbath for people of your faith? In addition to prayer, which tasks is one not permitted to perform and which are permitted?

**Hi, to your question. A brief description of how SDA observe the Sabbath

The Sabbath day is dedicated to our Lord, we forgo anything that is pleasing to ourselves, i.e extracurricular activities. It is the day the we honor our creator.

(Exo 20:10) But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

As Jesus exemplified, the SDA can perform any duties that are good for mankind.

Many preparations are done prior to the Sabbath to prepare for the Sabbath.

A typical Sabbath would consist of : Sabbath school - 1 1/2 hours, followed by Sabbath worship 1- 1 1/2 hours, Pot luck/fellowship lunch 1- 2 hours, going for a walk, Christian reading, fellowship with others, prayer, spending time with family members ( so valuable for our children during this busy secular world), witnessing to others about Jesus.

Should you have any questions, let me know.

written with love**

 

[adrift]

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that the “laws” in the above verse is “Divine Law is that which is enacted by God and made known to man through revelation.”
Furthermore, the Catholic Encyclopedia states “all the precepts of the Decalogue are also precepts of the natural law, which can be gathered by reason from nature herself, and in fact they were known long before Moses wrote them down at the express command of God.” Notice that it reads " all the precepts of the Decalogue, which would include the Sabbath Day/Saturday.

Brian, I think we need to be very careful and know for sure if a day in Genesis is a 24 hour period, or a longer period of time. If it were a longer period of time, this could bring into questions that the earth could be billions of years old, thus bringing into question the evolution theory( of stupidity ). I strongly believe that evening and morning were/still are 24 hour periods of time. We see in Gen 1:4-5 that the Night was darkness and Day was light combining to make the first day.

Actually, Hebrews tells us that Israel in fact never entered into God’s rest on the Sabbath (as intended) due to disobedience, etc - and, by the grace of God in the new covenant, we finally in fact enter into his rest “today” and “everyday” in Christ.

**I agree with your statement. Israel was so legalistic and the Sabbath day was a burden to them. That is why Jesus came to correct Israel and exemplify the true meaning of the Sabbath day. That is why Jesus preached on the Sabbath. Also in (Joh 15:10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
I don’t believe Jesus would come to defend the Sabbath day of worship and then upon His death, without telling any of His disciples, that the Sabbath day was to be abolished, that a commandment was to be abolished/ or the meaning of the day was to be changed.
I believe the Sabbath day/Saturday is to not be changed to Sunday to honor the resurrection of Jesus, but as it was meant from the beginning of creation-Adam , to honor the God who created the earth and the skies and all that is in them. For if you remove the original meaning ( Exo. 20:8-11) , of the Sabbath day we do not know who our God is. The fourth commandment is the commandment that gives to us both the name and the title of the lawgiver. It is the only one of the commandments that shows whose authority the law is given. **

written with love
This has already been refuted in Post 431

to abrogate the sabbath law in at least some way. This is why he states, “For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath” (Mt 12:8). Both “Son of Man” and “Lord” are references to Christ’s sovereign power. The footnote in your Confraternity Version is wrong. Footnotes in Catholic Bibles are not infallible. (See “Dragnet” in the January 1994 issue of This Rock for a place where we caught one such footnote in an outright historical error).

The sabbath command** is the only one of the Ten Commandments which can be altered in any way, because only it is a part of the ceremonial law. This is taught by the Roman Catechism issued after the Council of Trent:
**
The other commandments of the Decalogue are precepts of the natural law, obligatory at all times and unalterable. Hence, after the abrogation of the Law of Moses, all the Commandments contained in the two tables are observed by Christians, not indeed because their observance is commanded by Moses, but because they are in conformity with nature which dictates obedience to them.

This Commandment about the observance of the sabbath, on the other hand, considered as to the time appointed for its fulfillment, is not fixed and unalterable, but susceptible of change and belongs not to the moral, but the ceremonial law.** Neither is it a principle of the natural law; we are not instructed by nature to give external worship to God on that day, rather than on any other. And in fact the sabbath was kept holy only from the time of the liberation of the people of Israel from the bondage of Pharaoh.**

The observance of the sabbath was to be abrogated at the same time as the other Hebrew rites and ceremonies, that is, at the death of Christ. . . .** Hence St. Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians, when reproving the observers of the Mosaic rites, says: “You observe days and months and times and years; I am afraid of you lest perhaps I have labored in vain amongst you” (Gal 4:10). And he writes to the same effect to the Colossians (Col 2:16).**

 

[Robbinson]

BTTG;7823816:

You distinguish between the moral law of the Ten Commandments and the Torah. However, the Torah consists of moral precepts as well as ceremonial rituals. Even the latter are viewed by Jews as part of the spiritual nature of the Law, since they are to be fulfilled as Moses taught with a sense of converting the mundane behaviors of life into something sanctified. Thus the kosher laws, for example, are designed to make the foods we eat and the way they are prepared into a holy behavior, so that we do not take these activities for granted. The whole Torah is the Law, divinely inspired and given to Moses by G-d. One cannot separate the Torah as an adjunct of the Ten Commandments.

Thanks Meltzerboy - I appreciate that perspective and would agree (as does the new testament) that under the mosiac law, all 613 commandment form the law and if you break any part of it, you are guilty of breaking all of it. I believe (and you disagree, I understand) that the mosaic covenant was replaced by a new covenant (as fortold in Jer 31:31 - that would be different than the mosaic covenant) and that under this new covenant, we reverted to the Decalogue (as Moses originally came down with just the Decalogue, before smashing it and returning again) as the moral law written in our hearts. The discussion here has revolved around the Sabbath (but happy to diverge if that is your desire) to discuss broader implications of the new covenant.

Think of it this way - I assume you believe tha Abraham was a good Jew (he is our Patriarch), and yet he did not have the mosaic law. Maimonides, and others, have taught that the Torah was pointing to the coming of the Messiah - and he has come (I believe) - thus the “new covenant” building upon the foundation of the Mosaic law, but uniting Jew and Gentile. I appreciate you agree with the fundamental premise that the messiah has come - and presumably with the meaning of Jer 31:31.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[BTTG]

I look forward to your post - but I do in fact believe the entire mosaic law was fulfilled by Christ, but we are now under the law of Christ (Paul says he is “not” under the law of Moses, but “is” under the law of Christ - pointing to a difference). The law of Christ is the moral law written in our hearts - which is the 10 commandments (but don’t get excited re: the Sabbath quite yet - the 10 commandments include moral laws we fulfill in our love of God and neighbors, and a rest on the Sabbath which we still satisfy and fulfill in our rest in Christ - the “solemnity of the Sabbath” is celebrated on the Lord’s Day -

**Response

Hi Brian

I believe there is no such blending of the mosaic law and the 10 commandments. We read proof of this is in …(Deu 4:13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. (Deu 4:14) And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Moses separates the 10 commandments which “he commanded you” from the statutes which “he commanded me” to give to the people. We read in the next verse of 2 separate distinctive laws… (2Ki 21:8) Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them.

The statutes which Moses gave the people were called “law”. God speaks of the law " I commanded" and also the “law Moses commanded”.

We also see that God wrote the 10 commandments upon 2 tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. The mosaic law was written by Moses in a book. The 10 commandments were placed in the Ark of the Covenant. The mosaic law was placed in a pocket on the side of the ark.

The mosaic law was a “witness against thee” of curses and judgments. For Christians the 10 commandments/moral law are for protection and favored the people. Paul himself says the law (10 commandments) is holy, is just and good… the law is spiritual.

We can see that there were 2 separate laws.

Only the mosaic law was nailed to the cross. No part, not one of the 10 commandments were nailed to the cross. Yet some believe that the Sabbath Day commandment was nailed to the cross and the meaning changed of the Sabbath day that God had originally wrote with His finger in permanent stone.
The 10 commandments were not a shadow of things to come. Therefore, I believe the Sabbath day as one of the 10 commandments cannot be called a shadow of things to come.

It is impossible for sin to exist where there is no law. The Bible reads, “(Rom 4:15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.” And also,(1Jn 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." The Paul says, (Rom 7:7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

In the above verses the “law” Paul is talking about is the 10 commandments, as he alludes to with the statement “thou shalt not covet”. Therefore, we no that Cain sinned and disobeyed one of the 10 commandments. No sin can be imputed where the 10 commandment law is not in effect. Thus the 10 commandments were in effect from the time of Adam.

The mosic law was added 430 years after Abraham, because of the transgression of sin and would last until " the seed should come".

Someone made a very good point to me. “The 10 commandments is inside the ark of the covenant in heaven. If the law, or any part of the law , that was abrogated at the cross, Christ is mediating for the transgression of an obsolete law.”

Heb 4:9 - states that "There remainth therefore a “keeping of the Sabbath” to the people of God. We know that Hebrews vs 9 is talking about a specific day, the sabbath day and not just a rest in Christ for in vs 4 it quotes from Gen. 2:2. We also read in vs 10 that it states of not only a spiritual rest but a physical rest ( to cease from works) “just as God did from His”. God rested from His physical work of the 7th day Sabbath, as we should rest/cease work on the 7th day Sabbath just like God did.

If I understand you correctly the Sabbath now means to enter into a spiritual rest in Christ and there is no need to observe the memorial of the Sabbath.
But if this were true, we would also have to stop baptism ( as it memorializes our death to the old sin). If the physical observance is unnecessary just because we have the spiritual symbolism fulfilled in us, then we do not need to perform the physical custom. The same would be true with the Lord’s supper.

I quote " The 10 commandments were in a different category then the mosaic law. The moral code ( 10 commandments) encased in the ark of the testimony, like the rest of the wilderness sanctuary, was a copy of the true pattern in heaven. So we affirm that it not only was repeated and reinforced in the New Testament but was identified in John’s vision beanth the mercy seat in the heavenly sanctuary, from which Christ ministers His own blood for the transgression of the Holy law. From the foundational position, it continues to be the basis for Christ’s intercessory ministry for us in the throne room of heaven. Therefore, it is established as the most unmovable and unchangeable of all God’s decrees."

written with love

**

 

[Robbinson]

Craig

There are some nice insights in your last post - I’ll reflect further on your thinking about the 10 commandments as being distinct from the balance of the Mosaic Law (although, as I noted in reply to Meltzerboy - the NT does appear to expressly teach that if we break any part of the law we break all of it - suggestive of a unity). That said, some of your illustrations were thought provoking.

Re: Baptism - I believe it is more than a memorial (it is a sacrament which cleanses original sin). Also, it is a command of Christ in the new covenant.

I’ll reiterate, however, that as to the Sabbath - I “rest” on the Saturday Sabbath and on “every day” - thus fulfilling the commandment via my rest with and in Yeshua - just as Adam and Eve rested “every day” in the presence of God.

That said, I think its wonderful if you honor/observe the Sabbath out of a love for God - and per scripture, I would never judge another by the Sabbaths they keep (or chose not to keep).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[adrift]

I’ll reiterate, however, that as to the Sabbath - I “rest” on the Saturday Sabbath and on “every day” - thus fulfilling the commandment via my rest with and in Yeshua - just as Adam and Eve rested “every day” in the presence of God.

That said, I think its wonderful if you honor/observe the Sabbath out of a love for God - and per scripture, I would never judge another by the Sabbaths they keep (or chose not to keep).

Blessings,

Brian

You have a better understanding of what Hebrews is speaking about. In order to understand the rest, you have to read it in the context that is written not just the one verse. When you read all of what is being said you realize that the rest is in Jesus our high Priest.

 

[BTTG]

Craig

There are some nice insights in your last post - I’ll reflect further on your thinking about the 10 commandments as being distinct from the balance of the Mosaic Law (although, as I noted in reply to Meltzerboy - the NT does appear to expressly teach that if we break any part of the law we break all of it - suggestive of a unity). That said, some of your illustrations were thought provoking.

Re: Baptism - I believe it is more than a memorial (it is a sacrament which cleanses original sin). Also, it is a command of Christ in the new covenant.

I’ll reiterate, however, that as to the Sabbath - I “rest” on the Saturday Sabbath and on “every day” - thus fulfilling the commandment via my rest with and in Yeshua - just as Adam and Eve rested “every day” in the presence of God.

That said, I think its wonderful if you honor/observe the Sabbath out of a love for God - and per scripture, I would never judge another by the Sabbaths they keep (or chose not to keep).

Blessings,

Brian

**Thank you Brian, you are a sincere and honest person. I too would not judge you on observing Sunday. Your post indicate that in your heart you truly believe and God knows that too. Some readers think I am here to convert… I am here to bring to light the light that has been provided to me, only the Holy spirit can do the convicting. God Bless.

written with love**

 

[BTTG]

Hebrews 4

Hebrews 4:1-9. But before reading it, I want us to look at three other texts in the Old Testament which will help us to understand it better. First, let’s read Ezekiel 20:15,16,23,24, “Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness, that I would not bring them into a land I had given them flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands; because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols. I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries; because they had not executed my judgments, but had despised my statutes, and had polluted my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers’ idols.”

Now friends, you see why God destroyed the children of Israel in the wilderness. One of the reasons that some of them were destroyed in the wilderness and were dispersed throughout the countries was because they broke the Sabbath Jesus made. Later, we are going to notice that the Apostle Paul, in the New Testament, also mentions the reason they were destroyed in the wilderness.

Now let’s turn to the book of Jeremiah and notice the reason that there is no king on David’s throne today, and why Jerusalem was destroyed by fire. In Jeremiah 17:24,25 and 27 we read this: “And it shall come to pass, if ye diligently hearken unto me, saith the Lord, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the Sabbath day, to do no work therein; then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and this city shall remain forever.” Now we can see that this was lack of faith, wasn’t it? If they had continued to do what the Lord had told them in keeping the Sabbath holy, there would always have been someone on David’s throne and the city would have remained forever. In other words, by their actions they said, “How can I make a living and keep the Sabbath?”

There were three things they were guilty of that God will not tolerate: 1) A lack of faith -“How can I make a living and keep the Sabbath?” 2) Unbelief in what God said would happen if they broke the Sabbath. 3) Willful disobedience in braking the command that says, “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.” In a moment we will see that Paul brings this out in the New Testament.

Now let’s find out why Jerusalem was destroyed by fire, in verse 27. “But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the Sabbath day, and not bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the Sabbath day, then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” Friends, this prophecy was fulfilled twice, once in the days of Jeremiah, and the second time forty years after Jesus went back to Heaven when the Romans came and took Jerusalem and burned it with fire and took the gold down to Rome. This was the reason Jesus said, “Pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day.” Matthew 24:20. The disciples prayed this prayer for forty years.

Now with this little background we will read the New Testament verses which are so often overlooked, and we will be able to understand them. I will begin reading Hebrews 3:17, and you will immediately see that Paul is talking about the verses in Ezekiel that we have just read; and the reason the Israelites were destroyed in the wilderness. “But with whom was he grieved forty years? Was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?” Verse 17. Please notice here that they were destroyed in the wilderness because they sinned! 1 John 3:4 states that “sin is the transgression of the law.” We read in Ezekiel that this happened to them because they broke the Sabbath Jesus made.

Now, should I be afraid today if I break the Sabbath? Read the answer in Hebrews 4:1,2. “Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.” Notice it says, “Let us…” It is talking of Christians in the New Testament times, and Paul included himself. And he was a born-again Christian. Further, we notice that Paul states the gospel was preached unto us as well as unto them.

Paul states it was lack of faith that caused them not to keep the Sabbath. Let me ask you something, friends. Was Paul talking about the seventh-day Sabbath? Read the answer in verse 4, “For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, and God did rest the seventh day from all his works.” Paul said he was talking about the rest of the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week. He quoted right from the fourth commandment to establish the point.

Now I have another question, “Does the Sabbath remain for us to keep today?” That is one of the most important questions we could ask. And here is Paul’s answer in verse 9. : “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.” Please notice that by the word “rest” in your Bible you have a little number. It refers you to the margin. What does it say in the margin of your Bible? It says, “keeping of a sabbath.” In the actual Greek text the word “sabbatismos” is used, and it means literally “sabbath-keeping”. So translated directly into the English, the verse reads, “There remains Sabbath keeping for the people of God.” And the next verse explains further: “For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.”

continued in next post…

 

[BTTG]

Now let’s see how simple we can make it. What day did God rest from His work? The last part of the fourth verse said, “God did rest the seventh day from all his work.” So if I enter into His rest, I am going to keep the seventh day just as God did. And verse 11 urges us to do that very thing. “Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.” Again we notice he said, “Let us” thus including you and me with himself. Let us enter into THAT rest. What rest was he talking about? He had already mentioned the seventh day Sabbath rest, so he is telling us to enter that rest, the seventh day rest.

Furthermore, he says, “Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall.” Whether I am a Jew or a Gentile, if I don’t enter into that rest, I will fall. And he continues, “Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall, after the same example of unbelief.” The Jewish people were destroyed in the wilderness because they broke the Sabbath, it was because of their unbelief, or lack of faith. Notice by the word unbelief there is a little number, and it refers you to the original reading: in other words, what that word was in the original Greek. What does the margin of your Bible say? It says, “disobedience.” So, supplying this word, the verse would read, “Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of disobedience.” What is disobedience? Disobedience is going against a direct command. So here is a direct command to keep which day? Notice verse 4: “The seventh day.”

Here we see three things that God will not tolerate: 1) Lack of faith. Hebrews 4:1,2. 2) Unbelief and 3) Disobedience. Hebrews 4:11. So God says if I have a lack of faith, or I don’t believe what He says, or I am disobedient in regarding the keeping of the Sabbath, the same thing will happen to me that happened to the Jewish people in Old Testament times. author - J.C.

 

[StevieD]

After 34 pages of posts, you now fully understand the Catholic viewpoint and we have your word that you leave converting to the SDA to the Holy Spirit. So what are you still doing here? Trying to make the same point in 100 different ways?

 

[adrift]

Hebrews 4

Hebrews 4:1-9.

This is taken from this article titled Biblical Myths - Part 4

Read in context imho, Hebrews actually speaks to why the old law Sabbath no longer applies.

 

[adrift]

After 34 pages of posts, you now fully understand the Catholic viewpoint and we have your word that you leave converting to the SDA to the Holy Spirit. So what are you still doing here? Trying to make the same point in 100 different ways?

You have made a great point. I have tried to sum up what has been said.
The argument is made:
God made the seventh day holy from creation. That Adam and Eve, Abraham etc. kept the Sabbath.
If the Sabbath was meant to be changed Jesus would have made it clear.
The Decalogue is written on our hearts and are known through natural law that includes the Commandment on the Sabbath. The Apostles’ kept the Sabbath as did Paul. The mention of the Lord’s day means the Sabbath. The term to “Break Bread” refers to an everyday ceremony.

The counter argument is made

Jesus came to fulfill the Old law. We are no longer under the old law. The Ten Commandments are natural law and as such are still to be observed. We should give worship to God is part of the natural law. But to give worship on a particular day does not belong to the natural law but a ceremonial law as you cannot ascertain a particular day to worship through natural means. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. He gave the Keys to heaven ’and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
The rest is in Jesus who rose on Sunday thereby sanctifying that day. The rest we look forward to is heaven. The early Christians kept Sunday as the Lord’s day. A term never used for the Sabbath. To “break Bread” is mentioned three times in the New Testament. The terminology does not appear in the old. 1 Corinthians 10:16 “Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?” shows what breaking bread meant.

God Bless is there an argument that will convince are OP?:nope: Is there an argument that will convince those of the Sunday observance is not the truth? Don’t think so. The Church is protected by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Robbinson]

You have made a great point. I have tried to sum up what has been said.
The argument is made:
God made the seventh day holy from creation. That Adam and Eve, Abraham etc. kept the Sabbath.
If the Sabbath was meant to be changed Jesus would have made it clear.
The Decalogue is written on our hearts and are known through natural law that includes the Commandment on the Sabbath. The Apostles’ kept the Sabbath as did Paul. The mention of the Lord’s day means the Sabbath. The term to “Break Bread” refers to an everyday ceremony.

The counter argument is made

Jesus came to fulfill the Old law. We are no longer under the old law. The Ten Commandments are natural law and as such are still to be observed. We should give worship to God is part of the natural law. But to give worship on a particular day does not belong to the natural law but a ceremonial law as you cannot ascertain a particular day to worship through natural means. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. He gave the Keys to heaven ’and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
The rest is in Jesus who rose on Sunday thereby sanctifying that day. The rest we look forward to is heaven. The early Christians kept Sunday as the Lord’s day. A term never used for the Sabbath. To “break Bread” is mentioned three times in the New Testament. The terminology does not appear in the old. 1 Corinthians 10:16 “Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?” shows what breaking bread meant.

God Bless is there an argument that will convince are OP?:nope: Is there an argument that will convince those of the Sunday observance is not the truth? Don’t think so. The Church is protected by the Holy Spirit.

Beautiful summary - I’ll keep this one

 

[adrift]

Beautiful summary - I’ll keep this one

Thank you. I did forget one response for the counter
There is no mention in Scripture that Adam, Abraham, etc. ever worshiped on the seventh day. There is no worship of the Sabbath until Moses.