Commandments

[Robbinson]

I agree with all my heart that we want to rest in Jesus everyday. Would we be a Christian if we only rested one 1 day, and said we can manage ourselves the other 6 days.

Looks like we agree here.

The Sabbath commandment continues so we need to obey what it says. God is specific when He states (Exo 20:11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Whenever the Sabbath is mentioned in the Bible it is “the” Sabbath day, not “a” Sabbath Day.

We cannot change the Sabbath Day that he specifically instituted, to now 7 days. If you take out the Sabbath “Day”, you are removing a commandment.

I actually agree with you - so to be clear, I’ll say it again, the “Sabbath day” is Saturday.

The Lord’s Day (not “the” Sabbath day" but some might say “a” sabbath (there are many “sabbaths” in the Old Testament covenant and NT scripture tells us not to judge oneanother by the “sabbaths” we keep - one esteems one day more than another (Col 2:16 and Romans 4:15).

The commandment to remember the Sabbath day and keep it Holy. I remember the 7th day - I “rest” in it in Christ. The old covenant restriction on physical work was a shadow and ultimate metephor for our true “rest” in the messiah.

Thus, I keep the “Sabbath commandment” because it is fulfilled in my “rest” (from work) in Christ.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[guanophore]

so it is Resurrection day but not the sabbath day - so we keep it holy not because it is the sabbath day but because it is Resurrection day - or is this not so - twinc

How is it possible for people to keep it holy? Is there any way for humans to make, or keep anything holy?

Jesus hallowed the first day of the week by rising from the dead, and coming to the Apostles.

 

[guanophore]

After Pentecost the law ( 10 commandments ) this includes the keeping of the Sabbath (Saturday) as a blessed, holy day… a day of worship. God made this a covenant that he will put the laws is to be in out hearts and mind with all men ( not just Jews ) after Pentecost. God never brakes a covenant. God never mentions that the covenant after Pentecost will exclude the Sabbath day and the Holy day will be Sunday.

craig

It would be a mistake to think that all that Jesus said and did was confined to scripture. He committed everything to the Apostles, and from them we have the observance of the first day of the week.

The book of Hebrews is quite clear that Jesus is our sabbath rest.

Jesus mentioned all of the commandments in HIs teaching except this one. That is because He Himself intended to give rest to those who rest in Him.

 

[guanophore]

In earlier posts the following question/answers took place.

I asked…Does the Catholic Church believe/have to obey in the 10 commandments?

You replied…All Christians are to keep the …(Jas 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. The HS infills us and enables us to follow His commandments with joy.

1John.5
[1] Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child.
[2] By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
[3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Then in another reply you stated…Yes, but we are not under the Law. We are under grace.

The Law was given to lead us to Christ. The Law was our tutor, until we came to believe in Him by grace, through faith. We do not find salvation by keeping commandments.

I asked...Do you know how worshiping on Sunday first began?

You responded…Yes, it began in the Upper Room, where the Apostles coward in fear because they thought they would be next.

We are in agreement that they were not there to conduct a worship service, though I don’t doubt they were at prayer. The salient event was that Jesus appeared among them. A week later, He did the same. He instructed them to wait upon the HS, and they did so. Since He appeared to them at random times and places, they learned to expect Him whenever they gathered together.

I stated...The Catholic church that now say the Lord's Day is in honor of His resurrection. I previously provided many scriptures to what day is the Lord's day.

Prior to Jesus’ resurrection, the Jews always thought of Sabbath as “the Lord’s Day”. But Jesus, whom the early Hebrew Christians received as the Lord, did not choose to rise on Sabbath, but on the first day of the week.

You responded…Yes, this was the Teaching of the Apostles. That is why they gathered at “broke bread” on the first day of the week. The Catholic Church has preserved the practices of the Apostles.

You also responded with…The phrase “gathered to break bread” is a reference to the celebration of the Lord’s Supper (the Body and Blood).

I stated… The words in the verse explain why the disciples had gathered…" for fear of the Jews". It does not say they were gathered to observe the Lord’s supper.

It seems that you have very little understanding about the history of your faith, and how these Sacred Traditions originated, and were preserved as part of the Apostolic Teaching.

You replied...I don't recall anyone here claiming they were?

Right. The Apostles were gathered in the upper room in fear. Jesus appeared to them. He later appeared to the disciples on the road to Emmaus, who recognized Him in the breaking of the bread. He appeared to the Apostles again on the first day of the week seven days after the first. He continued to appear and to teach them over the course of 40 days. I am sure we all wish we knew what was discusssed!

The Apostles continued to attend synagogue as they were all faithful Jews. They also met on the first day of the week to celebrate the Lord’s Supper, which was an addition to their faith.

Do you agree that Jesus in the flesh kept the Sabbath as a day of worship )?

Yes.

Do you agree that most of the Apostles kept the Sabbath as a day of worship?

Yes.

In (Rom 8:4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

is the" law" the “10 commandments”?

Jesus taught that the ten were summed up in the first two, but I would stipulate yes.

is the 10 commandments with or without the Sabbath day of worship?

The ten commandments God gave to Moses included the Sabbath, however, I think we are also in agreement that the institution of the Sabbath predated the 10 commandments.

is “us” both Jews and Gentiles?

Not sure what you are asking. In the verse above, it refers to those who walk according to the Spirit, whether Jew, or Gentile.

Thank you

craig

Christians observe Sabbath by resting in Christ.

 

[guanophore]

I agree with all my heart that we want to rest in Jesus everyday. Would we be a Christian if we only rested one 1 day, and said we can manage ourselves the other 6 days.

The Sabbath commandment continues so we need to obey what it says.

Yes.

Heb.4
[1] Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it.
[2] For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers.
[3] For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath,
`They shall never enter my rest,’”
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4] For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way, “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.”
[5] And again in this place he said, “They shall never enter my rest.”
[6] Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
[7] again he sets a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, “Today, when you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”
[8] For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day.
[9] So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God;
[10] for whoever enters God’s rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his.
[11] Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience.
[12] For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
[13] And before him no creature is hidden, but all are open and laid bare to the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
[14] Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
[15] For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
[16] Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Christians observe the Sabbath by striving to enter His rest. We draw near to the throne of grace to find mercy to help in time of need. We hold fast our confession.

God is specific when He states (Exo 20:11) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Whenever the Sabbath is mentioned in the Bible it is “the” Sabbath day, not “a” Sabbath Day.

Yes. The writer of Hebrews is clear here that “today is the day”.

We cannot change the Sabbath Day that he specifically instituted, to now 7 days. If you take out the Sabbath “Day”, you are removing a commandment.

maybe I should ask what do you mean by “rest”.

Thanks Brian

craig

No, human beings do not posess the power or authority to change that which God has instituted. In Christ, we see the fulfillment of the Sabbath, as He is our rest. We cannot enter into that rest by our own power, either. We enter only by responding to His grace, hardening not our hearts. When we are in His rest, we cease from our labors, as He ceased from His. We accept salvation by grace, through faith, and not by any works of righteousness that we can do.

If you were suffering a misunderstanding that observance on the first day of the week had anything to do with Constantine, please allow this error to be corrected by the letter of Saint Ignatius to the Magnesians in which he speaks of Christians as “no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also Our Life rose again”.

Also In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: “Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i.e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead”.

These works predate Constantine by over a century.

 

[BTTG]

I know you addressed this to Todd, but Gen 26:5 does not refer to the mosaic law - it wasn’t given yet at Sinai (which is the first place the Sabbath was laid down as a commandment). The commandments Abraham followed were those set forth in the scriptures - circumcision, leaving his family, going to the land of Canon - all based upon faith (which was accredited him to righteousness).

Hi Brian

What I was saying in (Gen 26:5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

… is that the “laws” are the “10 commandments”. Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionary say that “laws” is the Decalogue(10 commandments). Yes the commandments were the ordinances- circumcision, etc. And yes all based on faith.

craig

 

[BTTG]

How is it possible for people to keep it holy? Is there any way for humans to make, or keep anything holy?

Jesus hallowed the first day of the week by rising from the dead, and coming to the Apostles.

Therefore, did God change His Holy day and the day He blessed to the first day of the week?

craig

 

[BTTG]

The Lord’s Day (not “the” Sabbath day" but some might say “a” sabbath (there are many “sabbaths” in the Old Testament covenant and NT scripture tells us not to judge oneanother by the “sabbaths” we keep - one esteems one day more than another (Col 2:16 and Romans 4:15).

Hi Brian,

Col2:16; - If we start reading from Col 2:14 it begins the theme of the following verses. We read what was nailed to the cross…" handwriting of requirements" . These are the laws of ordinances that Moses wrote… (Eph 2:15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

The “Sabbaths” were weekly and yearly Sabbaths as read in Lev. 23.

craig

 

[BTTG]

It would be a mistake to think that all that Jesus said and did was confined to scripture. He committed everything to the Apostles, and from them we have the observance of the first day of the week.

Which Apostles do you mean?

The book of Hebrews is quite clear that Jesus is our sabbath rest.

Jesus does not have to specifically mentioned to keep the Sabbath day, because He and the Jews were already keeping the Sabbath day. Then Paul preached to the Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath day.

craig

 

[BTTG]

We do not find salvation by keeping commandments.

I agree

Prior to Jesus’ resurrection, the Jews always thought of Sabbath as “the Lord’s Day”. But Jesus, whom the early Hebrew Christians received as the Lord, did not choose to rise on Sabbath, but on the first day of the week.

Not only do the Jews know that the Sabbath is the Lord’s day, but The Lord himself knows…(Isa 58:13) If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

I believe the Jesus did not rise on the Sabbath, as He rested on that day.

It seems that you have very little understanding about the history of your faith, and how these Sacred Traditions originated, and were preserved as part of the Apostolic Teaching.

I am sorry that I do not have much understanding of history of my faith. Are these Sacred Traditions the traditions of Catholic Apostolic teachings?

The Apostles continued to attend synagogue as they were all faithful Jews. They also met on the first day of the week to celebrate the Lord’s Supper, which was an addition to their faith.

You must be getting frustrated with me. So the Apostles kept the Sabbath day as a day of worship. And, they met on the first day of the week to have the Lord’s Supper. But the early church fathers only worshiped and had the Lord’s Supper on Sunday.
Does this mean also that “faithful Jews” should continue to worship on the Sabbath as the Apostles did?

Was Luke a Jew?

Jesus taught that the ten were summed up in the first two, but I would stipulate yes.

I believe your referring to (Mat 22:40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The first 4 commandments are relating to our creator, the last 6 relating to fellow man. Therefore, Jesus taught, just about a year before His crucifixion, that the Sabbath day was to be obeyed as one of the commandments. Then about one year later after His resurrection the Sabbath Day is abolished. The Sabbath day was not a shadow of things to come as it is one of the 10 commandments. If Jesus was going to remove the Sabbath day, a commandment from His Father, I am sure it would have been very clear.

The ten commandments God gave to Moses included the Sabbath, however, I think we are also in agreement that the institution of the Sabbath predated the 10 commandments.

agree

Christians observe Sabbath by resting in Christ.

Sabbath day is" the" day we keep Holy, that He blessed, we rest in Christ everyday.

 

[diggerdomer]

I apologize if this has been brought up already…

It seems to me that the observance of the Sabbath rest on Saturday was commanded to commemorate two things. According to Exodus 20:11, it was commanded to commemorate God’s rest on the seventh day of creation (Genesis 2:1-3), which may or may not have been a Saturday. And, according to Deuteronomy 5:15, it was commanded to commemorate the defining event in Jewish history, God’s Saturday deliverance of the Israelites from their slavery in Egypt. (Exodus 12:1-51) By the first thing, the concept of a weekly day of rest is established and, by the second thing, Saturday is established as the weekly day of rest for the Old Covenant Jews.

For Christians, however, the Saturday Exodus of the Jews from Egypt pales in comparison to the Sunday Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the defining event in Christian history. So, it makes perfect sense that Sunday would be established as the day of weekly rest for New Covenant Christians.

Your final paragraph is outstanding. Thanks!

 

[guanophore]

Therefore, did God change His Holy day and the day He blessed to the first day of the week?

craig

I am really not in a position to know the mind of God. What I do know is that the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, and that we are earnestly to seek His rest.

I also know that the early Church celebrated the first day of the week because it is the Day when He rose,a nd appeared to them. I also know that He never guided them not to do this, nor are there any reprimands from Him or the Apostles for not keeping the OT sabbath.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus does not have to specifically mentioned to keep the Sabbath day, because He and the Jews were already keeping the Sabbath day. Then Paul preached to the Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath day.

craig

It is interesting that Paul also gathered with the disciples on the first day of the week, and that he wrote to the Gentile converts that esteeming certain days of the week was not relevant.

If the church went in the wrong direction, then yes, Jesus would need to specifcally mention it. We see this clearly in the letters in Revelation. He has no problem “specifically mentioning” actions of so called Christians that are offensive to HIm.

 

[guanophore]

.(Isa 58:13) If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

This describes our life in Christ.

I am sorry that I do not have much understanding of history of my faith. Are these Sacred Traditions the traditions of Catholic Apostolic teachings?

I am not sure I understand this question. The Sacred Tradition is the Word of God that was entrusted to the Church, and preserved infallible by the HOly Spirit, according to His promise.

You must be getting frustrated with me.

I don’t think so.

I respect the zeal of my Sabbatarian brethren, though they stand in the tradition of Apollos.

So the Apostles kept the Sabbath day as a day of worship. And, they met on the first day of the week to have the Lord's Supper. But the early church fathers only worshiped and had the Lord's Supper on Sunday.

I don’t think you can prove this. Clearly, the Jewish Sabbath continued to be observed in the Christian Church through the third century.

Does this mean also that “faithful Jews” should continue to worship on the Sabbath as the Apostles did?

No. God has called everyone to believe in His Son, Jesus.

Was Luke a Jew?

There is no evidence that he was. He followed a number of Jewish practices because he was a companion of Paul.

I believe your referring to (Mat 22:40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The first 4 commandments are relating to our creator, the last 6 relating to fellow man. Therefore, Jesus taught, just about a year before His crucifixion, that the Sabbath day was to be obeyed as one of the commandments.

Do you have a reference for this?

Then about one year later after His resurrection the Sabbath Day is abolished.

How do you figure that?

I don’t see anywhere that God did this.

And man does not have the power or authority to “abolish” God’s commandments. He can choose not to follow them, but he is the one who will be abolished, not the commandment.

The Sabbath day was not a shadow of things to come as it is one of the 10 commandments. If Jesus was going to remove the Sabbath day, a commandment from His Father, I am sure it would have been very clear.

I agree. What is made very clear, instead, is that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, and that we are to find our rest in Him.

 

[BTTG]

It is interesting that Paul also gathered with the disciples on the first day of the week, and that he wrote to the Gentile converts that esteeming certain days of the week was not relevant.

If the church went in the wrong direction, then yes, Jesus would need to specifcally mention it. We see this clearly in the letters in Revelation. He has no problem “specifically mentioning” actions of so called Christians that are offensive to HIm.

Hello

It would be easier to answer your questions if you can provide verses with your references.

I believe “esteeming certain days” is Roms 14:5, I replied to this verse in a previous reply.

 

[BTTG]

If the church went in the wrong direction, then yes, Jesus would need to specifcally mention it. We see this clearly in the letters in Revelation. He has no problem “specifically mentioning” actions of so called Christians that are offensive to HIm.

The Catholic church in Revelations.

 

[BTTG]

I am really not in a position to know the mind of God. What I do know is that the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, and that we are earnestly to seek His rest.

I also know that the early Church celebrated the first day of the week because it is the Day when He rose,a nd appeared to them. I also know that He never guided them not to do this, nor are there any reprimands from Him or the Apostles for not keeping the OT sabbath.

God is serious about keeping the Sabbath…

Notice OT
(1Jn 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Notice NT
(Exo 20:6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(Pro 28:9) He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
(Rom 3:31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The “law” is the 10 commandments, including the Sabbath day.

Celebrating the 1st day of the week because of the resurrection of our Lord, is a commandment that man made.

craig

 

[BTTG]

This describes our life in Christ.

In Isa. 58:13…Yes it does describe our life in Christ. Also, it does describe specifically that the “Sabbath” in this verse is the Sabbath Day. As it states that the Sabbath is my Holy day. Does not state that the Sabbath is my Holy week.

I am not sure I understand this question. The Sacred Tradition is the Word of God that was entrusted to the Church, and preserved infallible by the HOly Spirit, according to His promise.

What church are you mentioning?

I don’t think you can prove this. Clearly, the Jewish Sabbath continued to be observed in the Christian Church through the third century.

What part of my previous comment do you want me to prove?
Also, you are saying that the Sabbath day was observed by the Christian Church until the 3rd century.

Do you have a reference for this?

For what?

How do you figure that?

I don’t see anywhere that God did this.

And man does not have the power or authority to “abolish” God’s commandments. He can choose not to follow them, but he is the one who will be abolished, not the commandment.

You said that we do not have to observe the Sabbath day. We have to observe the Lord’s Day , which is Sunday. The Sabbath day is much more then a Sabbath rest.

I previously asked what you mean by “rest”?

**Originally Posted by BTTG **
The Sabbath day was not a shadow of things to come as it is one of the 10 commandments. If Jesus was going to remove the Sabbath day, a commandment from His Father, I am sure it would have been very clear.

I agree. What is made very clear, instead, is that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, and that we are to find our rest in Him.

You agree that the Sabbath day was not a shadow, therefore, the Sabbath day was not nailed to the cross, therefore, the Sabbath Day did continue after the resurrection of Jesus, therefore, man by his own interpretation changed the Sabbath day to mean the Sabbath rest in Christ.

I just noticed:

In an earlier conversation we had this took place:

Originally Posted by BTTG
Brian, with utmost respect to you and all Catholic believers. Once again we are all God’s children, wanting to know the truth.
The following is a history of the changing of the Sabbath.

Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, p. 153. “The church after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath or seventh-day of the week to the first, made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s day

Your response was:
One must exercise some caution with the Catholic Encyclopedia, as it is not infallibe, and sometimes it contains errors.

In this thread, in the upper right corner under " Catholic Quotes" it uses the Catholic Encyclopedia as a reference.

craig

 

[guanophore]

The Catholic church in Revelations.

Yes, He only founded One Church, and it is Catholic. The writing of St. John, though, is one Revelation (without the 's"). It occurred also on Sunday. And, if at that time, while half the Church was still celebrating Sabbath, and half was not (around the year 100AD), if Jesus wanted to correct them, I have no doubt He could have done so in the midst of all these other warnings and reprimands. As a matter of fact, He has had 2000 years to correct the Church. One would think that he was not too weak or disinterested to get through to SOMEBODY!

 

[guanophore]

God is serious about keeping the Sabbath…

Notice OT
(1Jn 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Notice NT
(Exo 20:6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(Pro 28:9) He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
(Rom 3:31) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The “law” is the 10 commandments, including the Sabbath day.

Celebrating the 1st day of the week because of the resurrection of our Lord, is a commandment that man made.

craig

Yes, God is serious about the Commandments. The keeping of the Sabbath is the only one of the 10 that He never specifically mentioned. After His death, it became clear that the Sabbath is fulfilled in HIm. We are to keep the Sabbath by resting in Him, for He is our Sabbath rest.

Do you think that Jesus rose from the dead by the power of man?

Do you think that He appeared to His Apostles by the commandment of men?

Do you think He allowed the temple to be destroyed, Israel scattered, and the Christians ejected from the synagogue by the will of man? You have some very strange ideas about the actions of God.