Common Cups-How Long Do Indults Take?

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I recently inquired about the use of glass decanters and when to pour the common cups.
The response fron the pastor was that the US Bishops have requested indults, and the issues are currently being reviewed by the Vatican. Does anyone know how long this process takes?

What is the difference between and dubium and an indult? Are they the same?
 
cknick said:
I recently inquired about the use of glass decanters and when to pour the common cups.
The response fron the pastor was that the US Bishops have requested indults, and the issues are currently being reviewed by the Vatican. Does anyone know how long this process takes?

What is the difference between and dubium and an indult? Are they the same?
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A dubium is a clarification of a specific rubric. An indult is a permission to do something contrary to the rubrics. AFAIK, the indult for consecration in the flagon/carafe/pitcher and subsequent pouring into the chalices has expired and the Pope refused to renew it back around the time that Redemptionis Sacramentum was promulgated.
 
As far as I know the only indult requested was for the EMOHC to be allowed to purify the vessels and that was denied.
 
I just emailed the USCCB Office of Divine Worship, to see if they know how long this will take. I’ll let you know if I find out anything different.
 
cknick said:
I recently inquired about the use of glass decanters and when to pour the common cups.
The response fron the pastor was that the US Bishops have requested indults, and the issues are currently being reviewed by the Vatican. Does anyone know how long this process takes?

What is the difference between and dubium and an indult? Are they the same?
Click to expand...
I believe they did ask and the answer was a solid, NO! Same with EMHC purifying after Holy Communion. That indult has expired and the request to renew it was refused by Rome.
 
I think you are correct Br. Rich. Hopefully the Office of Divine Worship will give me a definitive response, as I passed the pastors letter on to them. Thank You.
 
cknick said:
I think you are correct Br. Rich. Hopefully the Office of Divine Worship will give me a definitive response, as I passed the pastors letter on to them. Thank You.
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I hope that you have better luck with the USCCB Committee on Worship than I have had. When I have called them, the administrative assistant tries to send me back to my diocese, even though I have told him that we have no office of worship down here. It’s almost as though I have to pull teeth to get any information. Now, the CDWDS, on the other hand, is most helpful, even though I have to wake up at 3AM CST to contact them. They are extremely resourceful and you can’t get any higher authority than the CDWDS, short of contacting the Office of the Supreme Pontiff itself.
 
Well, here is the Pastors letter:

When and how to pour the cups is one of the many issues Rome is curently reviewing. The US Bishops have requested what are known as indults to allow certain local practices to continue. While various offices have expressed many opinions on these matters, the process has not yet concluded. Once it does our Bishop’s office will issue definitive directives, at which time I will implement them. Until that time, I have chosen to wait until we get the final word in order to avoid confusion among the liturgical ministers. I would not want to implement a number of changes only to have to change them back in a relatively short space of time.
I’m meeting with the Pastor Friday. I’ll copy the Comittee on Divine Worship’s directives and take them with me, but he is probably just going to get mad because I’m arguing the point. Any other advice before I go in to get drawn and quartered this Friday?
 
cknick said:
Well, here is the Pastors letter:

When and how to pour the cups is one of the many issues Rome is curently reviewing. The US Bishops have requested what are known as indults to allow certain local practices to continue. While various offices have expressed many opinions on these matters, the process has not yet concluded. Once it does our Bishop’s office will issue definitive directives, at which time I will implement them. Until that time, I have chosen to wait until we get the final word in order to avoid confusion among the liturgical ministers. I would not want to implement a number of changes only to have to change them back in a relatively short space of time.
I’m meeting with the Pastor Friday. I’ll copy the Comittee on Divine Worship’s directives and take them with me, but he is probably just going to get mad because I’m arguing the point. Any other advice before I go in to get drawn and quartered this Friday?
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What’s kind of funny is the dates. It is 2009 and these things were decided in 2004. !!
Give him a way out and blame your diocese for getting him the proper information.
 
Are we talking about pouring the wine into the chalice prior to consecration or pouring the precious blood into the chalices? If the former, why does it matter. If it is the latter, my understanding is that the precious blood is not to be poured. Am I mistaken?

Peace

Tim
 
Orogeny said:
Are we talking about pouring the wine into the chalice prior to consecration or pouring the precious blood into the chalices? If the former, why does it matter. If it is the latter, my understanding is that the precious blood is not to be poured. Am I mistaken?

Peace

Tim
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Actually, both. No you are not mistaken. Because the latter is taking place in my DIocese, which is against the rubrics-Redemtionis Sacramentum, I’m questioning the practice. the Bishop was just at our Parish this past Sunday, on Father’s Day, and I watched him consecrate in the carafe, and have the EMHC’s pour the precious blood after the consecration. Like father like son. I don’t see uniformity across the Diocese, though.
 
cknick said:
Actually, both. No you are not mistaken. Because the latter is taking place in my DIocese, which is against the rubrics-Redemtionis Sacramentum, I’m questioning the practice. the Bishop was just at our Parish this past Sunday, on Father’s Day, and I watched him consecrate in the carafe, and have the EMHC’s pour the precious blood after the consecration. Like father like son. I don’t see uniformity across the Diocese, though.
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There are certain dioceses in the United States where the bishops continue to press Rome for an acceptance of concecrating the Precious Blood in flagons (but not glass ones) and then pouring it into chalices during the Agnus Dei. But those bishops don’t require their individual parishes to do so.
 
Orogeny said:
Are we talking about pouring the wine into the chalice prior to consecration or pouring the precious blood into the chalices? If the former, why does it matter. If it is the latter, my understanding is that the precious blood is not to be poured. Am I mistaken?

Peace

Tim
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Here is the citation from Redemptionis Sacramentum:
[105.] If one chalice is not sufficient for Communion to be distributed under both kinds to the Priest concelebrants or Christ’s faithful, there is no reason why the Priest celebrant should not use several chalices.193 For it is to be remembered that all Priests in celebrating Holy Mass are bound to receive Communion under both kinds. It is praiseworthy, by reason of the sign value, to use a main chalice of larger dimensions, together with smaller chalices.
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[106.] However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms.
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I hope this helps.
 
SMHW said:
**There are certain dioceses in the United States where the bishops continue to press Rome for an acceptance of concecrating the Precious Blood in flagons **(but not glass ones) and then pouring it into chalices during the Agnus Dei. But those bishops don’t require their individual parishes to do so.
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Impossible.

usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/chalice.shtml

FWIW I have NEVER heard of anyone pushing to pour the Precious Blood specifically from a metal versus a glass flagon. *The pouring of the Precious Blood is not allowed, period. * Please don’t obfuscate the matter by trying to apply chalice material requirements to flagons.
 
OhMalley said:
Impossible.

usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/chalice.shtml

FWIW I have NEVER heard of anyone pushing to pour the Precious Blood specifically from a metal versus a glass flagon. *The pouring of the Precious Blood is not allowed, period. *Please don’t obfuscate the matter by trying to apply chalice material requirements to flagons.
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Sorry. I must have been confusing this thread with another that mentioned glass containers.

I know the pouring of the Precious Blood is not allowed. But I stand by what I said… that certain bishops continue to press Rome regarding concecrating in a single container (flagon) and then pouring into individual chalices.
 
SMHW said:
Sorry. I must have been confusing this thread with another that mentioned glass containers.

I know the pouring of the Precious Blood is not allowed. But I stand by what I said… that **certain bishops continue to press Rome regarding concecrating in a single container **(flagon) and then pouring into individual chalices.
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That’s just not true. The Holy See has spoken on this matter and it has responded to repeated questions which it has answered once and for all. Take a look it’s been a rather rigorous process:

usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/chalice.shtml

Certain bishops have indeed chosen to ignore the directive. None “press Rome” because there is nothing to “press.” The Holy See has said “no” and has underscored that “no” more than once.
 
OhMalley said:
That’s just not true. The Holy See has spoken on this matter and it has responded to repeated questions which it has answered once and for all. Take a look it’s been a rather rigorous process:

usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/chalice.shtml

Certain bishops have indeed chosen to ignore the directive. None “press Rome” because there is nothing to “press.” The Holy See has said “no” and has underscored that “no” more than once.
Click to expand...
Since there is a discrepancy between the above and below, what should I say to the Pastor on Friday to help him understand that it is a wise choice to make the change?

When and how to pour the cups is one of the many issues Rome is curently reviewing. The US Bishops have requested what are known as indults to allow certain local practices to continue. While various offices have expressed many opinions on these matters, the process has not yet concluded. Once it does our Bishop’s office will issue definitive directives, at which time I will implement them. Until that time, I have chosen to wait until we get the final word in order to avoid confusion among the liturgical ministers. I would not want to implement a number of changes only to have to change them back in a relatively short space of time.
I’m meeting with the Pastor Friday. I’ll copy the Comittee on Divine Worship’s directives and take them with me, but he is probably just going to get mad because I’m arguing the point. Any other advice before I go in to get drawn and quartered this Friday?
 
cknick said:
Since there is a discrepancy between the above and below, what should I say to the Pastor on Friday to help him understand that it is a wise choice to make the change?

When and how to pour the cups is one of the many issues Rome is curently reviewing. The US Bishops have requested what are known as indults to allow certain local practices to continue. While various offices have expressed many opinions on these matters, the process has not yet concluded. Once it does our Bishop’s office will issue definitive directives, at which time I will implement them. Until that time, I have chosen to wait until we get the final word in order to avoid confusion among the liturgical ministers. I would not want to implement a number of changes only to have to change them back in a relatively short space of time.
I’m meeting with the Pastor Friday. I’ll copy the Comittee on Divine Worship’s directives and take them with me, but he is probably just going to get mad because I’m arguing the point. Any other advice before I go in to get drawn and quartered this Friday?
Click to expand...
You might just want to show him Redemptionis Sacramentum:

adoremus.org/RedemptionisSacramentum.html#anchor1186479

and tell him, with all charity, that this is the law of the land. Pope Benedict did not wish to extend the indult, so that measure pretty much died when he took office.
 
GRRRRR :mad::banghead:

Why can’t priests just follow the rules?? As mentioned in another thread (also started by the OP), we have this going on at our parish. Last Monday was the welcoming Mass for Archbishop Carlson for our deanery, and, just like the 125th anniversary Mass that then Archbishop Burke celebrated with us, the rubrics were followed: the wine was poured into the chalices prior to the consecration. Then, come Sunday, it was right back to business as usual :mad:

Why? Why the insistance on consecrating in the big glass pitcher? The only explanation I’ve gotten is “Fr. B likes it better that way”. Ok, WHY??? So the choir can make up 12 extra verses for the Lamb of God while they’re (and by “they” I mean either the Deacon or EMHC-which I’m sure is also not allowed-never the priest) pouring? What reason could there possibly be, other than just flat out disobedience: “Rome said it, Rome can’t tell ME what to do, I’m in charge of THIS parish!”

Ok, sorry for the vent 😊. But this is just driving me insane!

In Christ,

Ellen
 
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