Common Principals of Faith we Share

[daler]

Sorry, I am too lazy to visit your links and read. But let me summarize your answers as you gave them:

1. According to Bahaism, is there going to be a judgement day? YES
2. What is going to happen on Judgment day? Humanity is going to judged. (I assume each individual will also be judged?) This is also the Day of Resurrection
3. Are bodies of the dead going to be resurrected? No physical Resurrection. It is a spiritual body
4. Are people who already in heaven/hell going to be judged again? No Answer from you To add to this question - If yes, will some of those in heaven now be sent to hell and vice versa?
5. When is this Judgement day going to happen? We are in the middle of it. To add to this question: so are people being judged and resurrection even as I write this? At what rate is this happening (20 people per day or 200000 per day or as they die? What about the ones already dead - at what rate?) If I am one of those judged tomorrow will I be sent to hell immediately or God will wait for me to die?

Some more questions that come to mind (I am numbering them, so you won’t miss them):

1. These spiritual resurrected bodies - do they have gender ie are they male or female (and in some cases ambiguous)?
2. Do souls in heaven have gender?
3. Are people in heaven married?
4. What is the Bahai take on the 72 virgins in paradise story?

Thanks very much (BTW, do you guys ever talk without using metaphors - like trees and horses and mighty winds etc?).

Openmind,
. Thank you for your patience. Sorry about the “trees and mighty winds” Its like in the Book of Revelation, don’t cha know… How do you talk about this stuff without quoting Bob Dylan? “The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind. The answer is blowin’ in the wind…”

. Ok, so 1 by 1 here…

. 1 Yeah, we’re in the midst of the Day of Judgement, as those to whom the Book was given are being judged for turning away from what it foretold. i.e., the coming of the Lord, and those who deny Him deny all Those Who came before Him:

“Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.” Tablet of Ahmad

see . . bahaiprayers.org/ahmad.htm

. 2 I think that we are all “judged” according to the purity of our hearts and the wisdom and humility we show to each other and humbleness before God. This is also the Day of Resurrection, which is that the Return of the Reality of the previous Messengers and what they brought (pardon my own dumbed down version - much better to read that link from the Bab)

. 3 No physical bodies popping out of the graves. Like when you exhale CO2, you don’t need it back. When the body dies, its gone. Our soul doesn’t need it anymore, won’t do it any good. Like an old shoe…

. 4 Hell is remoteness from God. Many who are physically alive are already in Hell and know it not. Heaven is attaining to the good-pleasure of God, which is identical to attaining the good-pleasure of His Manifestation. It is nearness to God, not some physical place.

. 5 I think this is answered above. If not, please rephrase as needed. Thanks!

. 6 No spiritual resurrected bodies. As to the souls, I don’t think they need the parts to reproduce, as thats an aspect of the biological processes which belong to the animal aspect, which is now dead and returned to the dust. We move on, leave the car in the parking lot and head to the beach. Yay!!

. 7 Not that I can see. I think gender is a part of the horse we rode in on. “Elvis has now left the building”

. 8 Baha’u’llah did make a statement about His wife Navvab being “His consort in all the worlds of God”, and in the marriage prayer, it speaks of an eternal relationship. The physical body, however, is dissolved at death.

. 9 That verse does not appear in the Quran. It is a Hadith, and has spiritual meanings. The word “huri” can refer to a “bride of inner meaning”, or a pure understanding, by which people are enlightened and drawn closer to reunion with God, satisfied with His will, and hunger no more.
. It is possible that the number 72 is a reference to the number 9, as 7 + 2 = 9, and there are various symbolic reasons why this could make sense.
. In the Abjad numbering system of Arabic, each letter has a numeric value:

A is 1 B is 2 H is 5 and again A is 1 .
BAHA value is B (2) + A (1) + H (5) + A (1) so they add up to 9, which is a sacred number.
In other words, the word Baha is symbolized as 9.
This corresponds to prophecies about 1260 in Daniel and Revelation, where 1260 occurs. Also the 144,000 These all add up to 9, which refer to the coming of Baha’u’llah

. Can we get back to the trees and the wind now??

.

 

[daler]

Sigh, my original point was that jews, Muslims and Chrisitans hold to this idea of the day of judgement. For them it is just a metaphorical thing that represents a long period of time, it is a single moment in history in which God fundamentally changes the world, everyone is judged, everyone is risen from the dead and their eternal fate is sealed.

Bahai do not believe this. Don’t claim otherwise. Don’t cliam you are in agreement with these three faiths on this issue.

So, Ignatian, my friend, Does this imply a 24 hour day?

Or is it possible that it refers to a “span of time”, an appointed meeting with your Lord, such as an event, which is glorious for those who turn towards Him, and hell for those who fail to recognize Him, fail to do His bidding, etc

. I would hardly say that the Day of Judgement is metaphorical, Ignatian. It is extremely real. Would that one could ask those who have succumbed to their desires and failed to draw nigh unto Him. There is the story of Abraham, and the fellow who pleaded to be able to go back and warn his family, to which the answer came: “We sent the Prophets. They did not believe Them, nor would they believe you.”

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

So, Ignatian, my friend, Does this imply a 24 hour day?

Or is it possible that it refers to a “span of time”, an appointed meeting with your Lord, such as an event, which is glorious for those who turn towards Him, and hell for those who fail to recognize Him, fail to do His bidding, etc

. I would hardly say that the Day of Judgement is metaphorical, Ignatian. It is extremely real. Would that one could ask those who have succumbed to their desires and failed to draw nigh unto Him. There is the story of Abraham, and the fellow who pleaded to be able to go back and warn his family, to which the answer came: “We sent the Prophets. They did not believe Them, nor would they believe you.”

.

Again, what you call the day of judgement is not our doctrine. You do nto believe in the day of judgement, you believe an eternity of judgement within the creation, everything continuing on with God not entering the frame to fix everything at once.

This is the worst thing about bahai, you have to feel you agree with everyone and you will deceive yourselves in the process. Do you not see my point when you contradict me on what the day of judgement means? It means you have already granted my point that you differ signifficantly from the traditions you claim to partly hail from.

 

[openmind77]

Once we are in heaven, you would be correct. We will be perfect, having been purified by our loving God. Were you under the impression that Christians believe differently?

According to another Christian poster all the souls in heaven are anxiously waiting to be united with their glorified bodies on the Day of Judgment/Resurrection (ie they are currently incomplete and so imperfect by themselves).

 

[daler]

Again, what you call the day of judgement is not our doctrine. You do nto believe in the day of judgement, you believe an eternity of judgement within the creation, everything continuing on with God not entering the frame to fix everything at once.

This is the worst thing about bahai, you have to feel you agree with everyone and you will deceive yourselves in the process. Do you not see my point when you contradict me on what the day of judgement means? It means you have already granted my point that you differ signifficantly from the traditions you claim to partly hail from.

Iggy,
. Back on the farm, we used to milk cows. If you set the pail aside awhile, the cream rises to the top. You could even churn butter out of that same milk which came out of the same ole cow there, don’t cha know. Why, I remember drinking milk that had never been homogenized, pasteurized, or even seen the light of the moon.

. Now the fellow down at the store raised all kinds of commotion, saying “You can’t do this! and You can’t do that!!” Meanwhile, we were mixing salt with ice and making ice cream. Mmmmm…

. Now Iggy, you can buy all the milk, and butter, and ice cream you like down at the store in your favorite brand, while the rest of us poor ignorant hog farmers will just whip up a batch for ourselves… but we’re always happy to share…

.

 

[openmind77]

Openmind,
. Thank you for your patience.

No problem.

. 1 Yeah, we’re in the midst of the Day of Judgement,…
. 2 … This is also the Day of Resurrection…
. 3 No physical bodies popping out of the graves…

. 4 Hell is remoteness from God. Many who are physically alive are already in Hell and know it not. Heaven is attaining to the good-pleasure of God, which is identical to attaining the good-pleasure of His Manifestation. It is nearness to God, not some physical place.

You have not answered my question at all! Not deliberately, I hope. I did not ask what is heaven/hell or who goes there. My question is (read it again): Will those **already **in heaven or hell be judged again on Judgement Day? If so, will some of those now in heaven, be sent to hell after this Judgment and vice versa?

. 5 I think this is answered above. If not, please rephrase as needed. Thanks!

Sorry you did not answer this at all. Since your Judgement day is lasting over several centuries - At what rate are people being judged.** How many people are judged per day?** Are they only being judged after they die or are the living also being judged?

. 6 No spiritual resurrected bodies. As to the souls, I don’t think they need the parts to reproduce, as thats an aspect of the biological processes which belong to the animal aspect, which is now dead and returned to the dust. We move on, leave the car in the parking lot and head to the beach. Yay!!

You still don’t want say anything clearly. Are you saying there are no genders in heaven? That souls do not have gender? I hope so, because I agree

. 7 Not that I can see. I think gender is a part of the horse we rode in on. “Elvis has now left the building”

So you are saying there are no genders in heaven. The Koran says we do have genders in heaven. In fact people may have wifes as well as sex in heaven (also eating and drinking). Is the Koran wrong? How can they have sex without gender? What kind of food does a spiritual body eat and drink - why does it need to eat anything? Again, is the Koran wrong?

.
. 8 Baha’u’llah did make a statement about His wife Navvab being “His consort in all the worlds of God”, and in the marriage prayer, it speaks of an eternal relationship. The physical body, however, is dissolved at death.

If there is marriage in heaven, then there must be genders - there must be male and female souls - don’t you think?

.9 That verse does not appear in the Quran. It is a Hadith, and has spiritual meanings. …It is possible that the number 72 is a reference to the number 9,…
. Can we get back to the trees and the wind now??

.

Actually it does not really matter that the number is 7 or 72. But a heaven where you have people of the opposite sex available to service you sounds rather strange - isn’t that what the Koran says? What do the Bahai say about that?

 

[daler]

Are you saying there are no genders in heaven? That souls do not have gender? I hope so, because I agree

So you are saying there are no genders in heaven. The Koran says we do have genders in heaven. In fact people may have wifes as well as sex in heaven (also eating and drinking). Is the Koran wrong? How can they have sex without gender? What kind of food does a spiritual body eat and drink - why does it need to eat anything? Again, is the Koran wrong?
If there is marriage in heaven, then there must be genders - there must be male and female souls - don’t you think?

Actually it does not really matter that the number is 7 or 72. But a heaven where you have people of the opposite sex available to service you sounds rather strange - isn’t that what the Koran says? What do the Bahai say about that?

Openmind,
. Sorry friend, trying my best here. I guess maybe I haven’t thought the way I was used to thinking about some of this stuff for a long time. So I don’t think like that anymore…

. So to start off, about those who “are in hell”? Well, either this means people who are distant from God and A) either are still equipped with a physical body or B) their body has already died.

. What I think is relevant, is our attitude towards God. If we deliberately turn away from His Manifestations, we are turning away from God, which results in what we call “hell”, whether we have a corporeal body or not.

. From what I can understand, “Judgement Day” is generally referred to going from one Dispensation to the next, such that, for example, the Jews who were promised the coming of the Messiah, but refused to follow Jesus, or failed to recognize Him, were thereby “judged” accordingly. What does it mean to be “judged”?

. Well, If I am a seed lying beneath a fallen tree, and refuse to go out and gather some fresh sunlight, because I think the sun is over “here”, but I am wrong, I’m not gonna get any sunlight, am I? People who feed only upon ancient writings benefit accordingly, and are judged according to their response to the call of God.

. Jesus said, “My sheep know My voice”, and “for man does not live by bread alone, but by every word which procedeth out of the mouth of the Lord”

. If I do not know my Lord’s voice and refuse to live by it, refusing His manna, or the bread of heaven, prepared for the day I find myself living in, what is the natural outcome?

. Not trying to avoid anything, but this is the way my mind works now. Its kind of like driving a big rig on a hill. You have to gear up or down according to the load and the grade, so am doing my best to accommodate your questions as best I can.

. As to the gender thing, I think of it as riding a horse. It may be a mare or a stallion, but once I’m off the saddle, I’m not the horse, whether either one.

. As to the Quran and its references, I think that it was gauged to a certain audience in order to allay whatever their concerns were in a language which somehow moved them in the direction they needed to be. As to a literal meaning about gender in heaven? I don’t know. I mean I think that biology is a function of what happens on earth, and the soul is no longer confined to its earthly cage, and the magnetism of iron or lead seems to be a physical quality. Once we’re out of here, why would we be reproducing or any of that?

. I know that there are Baha’i references to the effect that we will be associating with the people who have died, but there is nothing about having sex with anyone. Again, thats a function of the physical body, not the soul. I think that a lot of the Quran is not to be taken literally, in the physical sense, as if life on earth as we know it continues - procreating, etc. It must be the joy of spiritual companionship and whatever energy we get from that, such as associating with blessed souls, totally compensates for any loss we suffer on earth for martyrdom, and that sort of thing.

. As to eating, or riding around on Harley’s or whatever we take from this life, the next has got to be a whole lot better without all the dirt and grease…

. I think that part of the problem is out frame of reference, which is limited to our experience. Where we are now is a world full of dirt and grease, and its a necessary part of our world. Where we differ from the animals is in the ability to absorb “meaning” from the communications of God, which happen through means of His Messengers, and are conveyed by Their Words. Eating “this” food, Their Words, digesting the meaning, is whats gonna fill up our bellies for the next world, and satisfy a lot of our hunger here.

.

 

[openmind77]

Openmind,
. Sorry friend, trying my best here. I guess maybe I haven’t thought the way I was used to thinking about some of this stuff for a long time. So I don’t think like that anymore…

. So to start off, about those who “are in hell”? Well, either this means people who are distant from God and A) either are still equipped with a physical body or B) their body has already died.

. What I think is relevant, is our attitude towards God. If we deliberately turn away from His Manifestations, we are turning away from God, which results in what we call “hell”, whether we have a corporeal body or not.

. From what I can understand, “Judgement Day” is generally referred to going from one Dispensation to the next, such that, for example, the Jews who were promised the coming of the Messiah, but refused to follow Jesus, or failed to recognize Him, were thereby “judged” accordingly. What does it mean to be “judged”?

. Well, If I am a seed lying beneath a fallen tree, and refuse to go out and gather some fresh sunlight, because I think the sun is over “here”, but I am wrong, I’m not gonna get any sunlight, am I? People who feed only upon ancient writings benefit accordingly, and are judged according to their response to the call of God.

. Jesus said, “My sheep know My voice”, and “for man does not live by bread alone, but by every word which procedeth out of the mouth of the Lord”

. If I do not know my Lord’s voice and refuse to live by it, refusing His manna, or the bread of heaven, prepared for the day I find myself living in, what is the natural outcome?

. Not trying to avoid anything, but this is the way my mind works now. Its kind of like driving a big rig on a hill. You have to gear up or down according to the load and the grade, so am doing my best to accommodate your questions as best I can.

. As to the gender thing, I think of it as riding a horse. It may be a mare or a stallion, but once I’m off the saddle, I’m not the horse, whether either one.

. As to the Quran and its references, I think that it was gauged to a certain audience in order to allay whatever their concerns were in a language which somehow moved them in the direction they needed to be. As to a literal meaning about gender in heaven? I don’t know. I mean I think that biology is a function of what happens on earth, and the soul is no longer confined to its earthly cage, and the magnetism of iron or lead seems to be a physical quality. Once we’re out of here, why would we be reproducing or any of that?

. I know that there are Baha’i references to the effect that we will be associating with the people who have died, but there is nothing about having sex with anyone. Again, thats a function of the physical body, not the soul. I think that a lot of the Quran is not to be taken literally, in the physical sense, as if life on earth as we know it continues - procreating, etc. It must be the joy of spiritual companionship and whatever energy we get from that, such as associating with blessed souls, totally compensates for any loss we suffer on earth for martyrdom, and that sort of thing.

. As to eating, or riding around on Harley’s or whatever we take from this life, the next has got to be a whole lot better without all the dirt and grease…

. I think that part of the problem is out frame of reference, which is limited to our experience. Where we are now is a world full of dirt and grease, and its a necessary part of our world. Where we differ from the animals is in the ability to absorb “meaning” from the communications of God, which happen through means of His Messengers, and are conveyed by Their Words. Eating “this” food, Their Words, digesting the meaning, is whats gonna fill up our bellies for the next world, and satisfy a lot of our hunger here.

.

Thanks Daler. You have made a great effort.

You probably still don’t see it yet, but there are many things in the Koran that need to be taken with a big grain of salt. And if Bahaullah is the final word, he has left a lot of things unanswered. Wives in heaven indeed! (and multiple ones too!) - sheer nonsense!

If your Judgment Day lasts 2 centuries - 200365 days and there are 6 billion people - are 6,000,000,000/200365 people being judged per day or do all them get judged at the last second of the Judgement Day? Or do they get judged after the end of Judgement Day?

Moses is probably in heaven right now (correct?). Is he going to be judged on Judgment Day or is he just going to be Resurrected? Nero is probably in Hell right now - is he going to be judged on Judgment Day and then what? - Sent right back to hell?

 

[tonyfish58]

Tony, what do you mean that there is no concrete answer with the words of God? It could be this… it could be that…?

This is exactly why Jesus started his Church and promised that it would remain until the end of time and why he sent the Holy Spirit to lead it into all truth, so that we would not be wandering around in uncertainty, but know that there is only one Way, one Truth and one Life, and that is Jesus Christ; God’s only Word. He has no other.

SteveVH - The Bab showed in one of His works how many meanings you could get from a single word. Baha’u’llah has also stated that many a meaning can be put on a passage. There could be an obvious one or a veiled one, and then it can be interpreted in many other different ways, this is a little bi like us talking together about Christian Scripture, it is obvious that there is many meanings, or we could limit them!

"Were We to expound its inner meanings and unfold its hidden mysteries, eternity would never suffice to exhaust their import, nor would the universe be capable of hearing them! God verily testifieth to the truth of Our saying! Baha’u’llah Katab-i-iquan reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-7.html

It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded:** “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people. And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” **He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.” Baha’u’llah Katab-i-iquan - reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-8.html

Bold & size added

Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

According to another Christian poster all the souls in heaven are anxiously waiting to be united with their glorified bodies on the Day of Judgment/Resurrection (ie they are currently incomplete and so imperfect by themselves).

You were speaking of the soul. Now you are speaking of the body.

In order to understand the Christian perspective you must also understand the fact that we believe that heaven is in eternity, outside of time and space. So as far as souls “waiting” to be reunited with their now glorified bodies, it is not a wait at all. All of history unfolds at once in eternity and time is not a factor. If one is in heaven they have been perfected.

 

[tonyfish58]

You were speaking of the soul. Now you are speaking of the body.

In order to understand the Christian perspective you must also understand the fact that we believe that heaven is in eternity, outside of time and space. So as far as souls “waiting” to be reunited with their now glorified bodies, it is not a wait at all. All of history unfolds at once in eternity and time is not a factor. If one is in heaven they have been perfected.

SteveVH - To understand other perspectives one has to open their thoughts to the fact we have no concept of how large this all is. The largeness and smallness being because of our finite minds.

The illusion is this world. But it is Gods illusion in which we live. Thus we participate in it all for the Love of God. It is the testing ground for our Souls to which we will only be attached while in our earthly Body. When the Body dies we enter the real existence, that is all the spiritual Worlds of God. There are many Worlds of God and we are told that as we move towards God we may have to traverse them all!

Consider this - Link - bahai-library.com/provisionals/universe.html

…“The Dawning Places of Unity, the Daysprings of Singleness and the Suns of Holiness are also sanctified beyond the bounds of number, and the luminous spiritual worlds are exalted above limits and restrictions. In like manner the worlds of bodily existence the mind of no man can reckon nor the understanding of the learned comprehend. Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: ‘God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell – all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.’ The fact that philosophers and sages have posited limits and restrictions for such matters is to be explained by the limitations of people~s minds and perceptions and the blindness of the followers of allusions, whose natures and intellects have been rendered dull and inanimate by the interposition of many veils…”

God Bless

Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Here are some quotes re the rejection of the Word from a few scriptures

28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

28:26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
(King James Bible, Acts)

22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
(King James Bible, Matthew)

1. The thoughtless man, even if he can recite a large portion [of the law], but is not a doer of it, has no share in the priesthood, but is like a cowherd counting the cows of others.
2. The follower of the law, even if he can recite only a small portion [of the law], but, having forsaken passion and hatred and foolishness, possesses true knowledge and serenity of mind, he, caring nothing for this world or that to come, has indeed a share in the priesthood.
   The Dhammapada, Chapter 1.

24 The unwise think that I am in the form of my lower nature which is seen by mortal eyes: they know not my higher nature, imperishable andsupreme.

For my glory is not seen by all: I am hidden by my veil of mystery; and in its delusion the world knows me not, who was never born and for ever I am.
Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 7

As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.

1. Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
2. Of the people there are some who say: “We believe in Allah and the Last Day,” but they do not (really) believe.
3. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves and realize (it) not!
4. In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease, and grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
   (The Qur’an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 2)

In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.
Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.
There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.
If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.
There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.
As He commands, so they exist.
He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.
O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel!
Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith.
Let understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools.
With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body’s inner heat.
In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name,
and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.
Such is the karma of those upon whom He has cast His Glance of Grace.
O Nanak, the Merciful Lord, by His Grace, uplifts and exalts them.
(Shri Guru Granth Sahib, Section 2 - So Dar)

Regards Tony

 

[daler]

Thanks Daler. You have made a great effort.

You probably still don’t see it yet, but there are many things in the Koran that need to be taken with a big grain of salt. And if Bahaullah is the final word, he has left a lot of things unanswered. Wives in heaven indeed! (and multiple ones too!) - sheer nonsense!

If your Judgment Day lasts 2 centuries - 200365 days and there are 6 billion people - are 6,000,000,000/200365 people being judged per day or do all them get judged at the last second of the Judgement Day? Or do they get judged after the end of Judgement Day?

Moses is probably in heaven right now (correct?). Is he going to be judged on Judgment Day or is he just going to be Resurrected? Nero is probably in Hell right now - is he going to be judged on Judgment Day and then what? - Sent right back to hell?

openmind,
. We all view the world, including the world of Revelation, through eyes of familiarity. We start out where we are, with limited vision, blurry, and then say: “Yes, I see perfectly!”

. The very use of the term “Resurrection” is not understood very well, for some confine it to physical reality, the solution of their bodies, the dissolution, resolution, and think thats what it means. When Jesus said: “I am the Resurrection and the Life”, from the Baha’i point of understanding, He was the Resurrection of Moses and the renewal of His Mission in a later age.

. The Bab clearly explains this, speaking of the Tree of Divine Revelation which appears in each successive Manifestation of God. Jesus is the Resurrection of Moses, Muhammad is the Resurrection of Jesus, the Bab is the Resurrection of Muhammad, and Him Whom God shall make manifest (Baha’u’llah) to be the Resurrection of the Bab, and Whoever appears in the future the same for the former in an endless process.

. "The substance of this chapter is this, that what is intended by the Day of Resurrection is the Day of the appearance of the Tree of divine Reality, but it is not seen that any one of the followers of Shí’ih Islám hath understood the meaning of the Day of Resurrection; rather have they fancifully imagined a thing which with God hath no reality. In the estimation of God and according to the usage of such as are initiated into divine mysteries, what is meant by the Day of Resurrection is this, that from the time of the appearance of Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality, at whatever period and under whatever name, until the moment of His disappearance, is the Day of Resurrection.
For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus—may peace be upon Him—till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shone forth through the appearance of that divine Reality, Who rewarded by His Word everyone who believed in Moses, and punished by His Word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God’s Testimony for that Day was that which He had solemnly affirmed in the Gospel. And from the inception of the Revelation of the Apostle of God—may the blessings of God be upon Him—till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Jesus—peace be upon Him—wherein the Tree of divine Reality appeared in the person of Muḥammad, rewarding by His Word everyone who was a believer in Jesus, and punishing by His Word everyone who was not a believer in Him. And from the moment when the Tree of the Bayán appeared until it disappeareth is the Resurrection of the Apostle of God, as is divinely foretold in the Qur’án… " from the Bab

reference.bahai.org/en/t/tb/SWB/swb-102.html

My understanding of the “Day” of Judgement is likewise that it is a relative term whereby a person is subjected to a test from the Divine Assayer, who proves the hearts of men. We may “say” that we are a follower of Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad, but if we truly “follow” any of Them, we should arrive at a certain point along the path which They point out to us. At the Point further up the road is One Who is our Judge, Who has been foretold in the Holy Books of the former, of Whom we have been warned.

. Moses, in the Baha’i view, is a Manifestation of God. Nero was certainly not. Moses moves at the good-pleasure of God, Who is well pleased with Him. Nero is lost in the wilds of remoteness and the fire of unbelief. What is relevant to you or I is where we are along the path of God’s good-pleasure. Will we stand shame-faced before our Lord on the Day of His Return? Is this that Day? Has the Hour arrived which no man can set back?

.

 

[Servant19]

You were speaking of the soul. Now you are speaking of the body.

In order to understand the Christian perspective you must also understand the fact that we believe that heaven is in eternity, outside of time and space. So as far as souls “waiting” to be reunited with their now glorified bodies, it is not a wait at all. All of history unfolds at once in eternity and time is not a factor. If one is in heaven they have been perfected.

So no Abraham’s bosom then?

Or, are you saying that before Jesus came as Saviour, all souls where not in an eternal realm?

.

 

[openmind77]

openmind,
. We all view the world, including the world of Revelation, through eyes of familiarity. We start out where we are, with limited vision, blurry, and then say: “Yes, I see perfectly!”

. The very use of the term “Resurrection” is not understood very well, for some confine it to physical reality, the solution of their bodies, the dissolution, resolution, and think thats what it means. When Jesus said: “I am the Resurrection and the Life”, from the Baha’i point of understanding, He was the Resurrection of Moses and the renewal of His Mission in a later age.

. The Bab clearly explains this, speaking of the Tree of Divine Revelation which appears in each successive Manifestation of God. Jesus is the Resurrection of Moses, Muhammad is the Resurrection of Jesus, the Bab is the Resurrection of Muhammad, and Him Whom God shall make manifest (Baha’u’llah) to be the Resurrection of the Bab***, and Whoever appears in the future the same for the former in an endless process.***

. "The substance of this chapter is this, that what is intended by the Day of Resurrection is the Day of the appearance of the Tree of divine Reality, but it is not seen that any one of the followers of Shí’ih Islám hath understood the meaning of the Day of Resurrection; rather have they fancifully imagined a thing which with God hath no reality. In the estimation of God and according to the usage of such as are initiated into divine mysteries, what is meant by the Day of Resurrection is this, that from the time of the appearance of Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality, at whatever period and under whatever name, until the moment of His disappearance, is the Day of Resurrection.
For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus—may peace be upon Him—till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shone forth through the appearance of that divine Reality, Who rewarded by His Word everyone who believed in Moses, and punished by His Word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God’s Testimony for that Day was that which He had solemnly affirmed in the Gospel. And from the inception of the Revelation of the Apostle of God—may the blessings of God be upon Him—till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Jesus—peace be upon Him—wherein the Tree of divine Reality appeared in the person of Muḥammad, rewarding by His Word everyone who was a believer in Jesus, and punishing by His Word everyone who was not a believer in Him. And from the moment when the Tree of the Bayán appeared until it disappeareth is the Resurrection of the Apostle of God, as is divinely foretold in the Qur’án… " from the Bab

reference.bahai.org/en/t/tb/SWB/swb-102.html

My understanding of the “Day” of Judgement is likewise that it is a relative term whereby a person is subjected to a test from the Divine Assayer, who proves the hearts of men. We may “say” that we are a follower of Moses, or Jesus, or Muhammad, but if we truly “follow” any of Them, we should arrive at a certain point along the path which They point out to us. At the Point further up the road is One Who is our Judge, Who has been foretold in the Holy Books of the former, of Whom we have been warned.

Sorry, I have been away. Anyway, let me try to summarize what you are saying (so many words):
Manifestations of God: Moses → Jesus → Muhammad → The Bab → Bahuallah

Assuming that all of the above are indeed ‘Manifestations’ of God (Personally I don’t think any of them except Jesus qualifies - the rest are just prophets or holy men), are you saying that Bahaullah is not the final one after all? That there are more expected?

That according to Bahais there maybe one more Manifestation of God tomorrow even greater than Bahaullah?

 

[daler]

Sorry, I have been away. Anyway, let me try to summarize what you are saying (so many words):
Manifestations of God: Moses → Jesus → Muhammad → The Bab → Bahuallah

Assuming that all of the above are indeed ‘Manifestations’ of God (Personally I don’t think any of them except Jesus qualifies - the rest are just prophets or holy men), are you saying that Bahaullah is not the final one after all? That there are more expected?

That according to Bahais there maybe one more Manifestation of God tomorrow even greater than Bahaullah?

openmind,
. I’ve been away a couple of days, too. Good to hear back from you. There will always be Manifestations of God, “to the end that hath no end”, but Baha’u’llah was quite explicit in saying not for a full thousand years shall another come.

. "“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him… Whosoever, interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy…”
(Bahá’u’lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 1873)

. Speaking as a Manifestation of God, it is the same as God Himself is saying this, as He is the Mouthpiece of God for this day. All of the time prophecies of Moses, Daniel, and Revelation were precisely accurate, and there is no reason to assume this would not be, but of course acceptance of the truthfulness of such a prophecy would depend upon recognition of Baha’u’llah.

. In searching for this quote, I happened upon it in a Wikipedia link, which might be of interest to you, as it outlines several other prophecies, most of which have been fulfilled already, and a few of which have not:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá’%C3%AD_prophecies
.

 

[daler]

are you saying that Bahaullah is not the final one after all? That there are more expected?

That according to Bahais there maybe one more Manifestation of God tomorrow even greater than Bahaullah?

Further,
. I think it helps if we consider the seasons of the year and the natural order of things. No matter how harsh the winter, spring must always follow. The spiritual cycle of nature appears to follow the same pattern. It is the same sun which rises each morning, and though the length of a winter day and a summer may vary, and clouds be overhead, there is only one sun, which reappears at whichever point on the horizon.

. “God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. We, verily, believe in Him Who, in the person of the Báb, hath been sent down by the Will of the one true God, the King of Kings, the All-Praised. We, moreover, swear fealty to the One Who, in the time of Mustagháth, is destined to be made manifest, as well as to those Who shall come after Him till the end that hath no end. We recognize in the manifestation of each one of them, whether outwardly 74 or inwardly, the manifestation of none but God Himself, if ye be of those that comprehend. Every one of them is a mirror of God, reflecting naught else but His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory, if ye will understand. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being, if ye be not devoid of understanding. No one hath ever escaped them, neither are they to be hindered from achieving their purpose. These Mirrors will everlastingly succeed each other, and will continue to reflect the light of the Ancient of Days. They that reflect their glory will, in like manner, continue to exist for evermore, for the Grace of God can never cease from flowing. This is a truth that none can disprove.”

Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah #30
.

 

[openmind77]

openmind,
. I’ve been away a couple of days, too. Good to hear back from you. There will always be Manifestations of God, “to the end that hath no end”, but Baha’u’llah was quite explicit in saying not for a full thousand years shall another come.

. "“Whoso layeth claim to a Revelation direct from God, ere the expiration of a full thousand years, such a man is assuredly a lying impostor. We pray God that He may graciously assist him to retract and repudiate such claim. Should he repent, God will, no doubt, forgive him… Whosoever, interpreteth this verse otherwise than its obvious meaning is deprived of the Spirit of God and of His mercy…”
(Bahá’u’lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, 1873)

. Speaking as a Manifestation of God, it is the same as God Himself is saying this, as He is the Mouthpiece of God for this day. All of the time prophecies of Moses, Daniel, and Revelation were precisely accurate, and there is no reason to assume this would not be, but of course acceptance of the truthfulness of such a prophecy would depend upon recognition of Baha’u’llah.

. In searching for this quote, I happened upon it in a Wikipedia link, which might be of interest to you, as it outlines several other prophecies, most of which have been fulfilled already, and a few of which have not:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahá’%C3%AD_prophecies
.

I understand from your post that if a ‘Manifestation of God’ (an Avatar) like The Christ returns in the next few years, that will have proven Bahaullah wrong and clearly not the ‘voice’ of God Himself - is this correct? Will that then be the end of the Bahai religion?

I am afraid Bahais are setting themselves up for a major disaster, since I do expect this event (the Return of the Christ) to occur pretty soon.

 

[Servant19]

I understand from your post that if a ‘Manifestation of God’ (an Avatar) like The Christ returns in the next few years, that will have proven Bahaullah wrong and clearly not the ‘voice’ of God Himself - is this correct? Will that then be the end of the Bahai religion?

I am afraid Bahais are setting themselves up for a major disaster, since I do expect this event (the Return of the Christ) to occur pretty soon.

If Christ returns “literally” from the clouds in the next, say 10 years, (or even 100 years) then, yes, that would be the end of the Baha’i religion.

What you fail to understand here, open mind, is that the Return of Christ has been expected even with the letters of Paul in the New Testament, over 1900 years ago…

Move forward to the mid to late 1800’s and you have some legitimate claims to “Expectation”…you are just another voice of expectation, but the difference is that ever since the mid 1800’s that expectation has failed to deliver as expected (again and again and again)…yet Baha’u’llah, just like Jesus, came and delivered the Message, causing seemingly little ripples in the physical world, yet apocalyptic ripples in the spiritual realm, and people on earth are missing their opportunity to serve Him.

The question is, if in 10 years, nothing has happened still, would you become a Baha’i open mind?

Maybe by then you will be filled with regrets on the lost 10 years of service to your Lord…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Except Mirza Hussain did not deliver the message of Jesus. The message of Jesus being that forgiveness has come through the son whom God the father has given up to death because of his love for man. Bahai utterly reject this, attributing salvation equally (unlike the new testament) to all the manifestations.

Christ will return, false prophets from Persia, the United states, the middle east, well they will always be with us now won’t they.