Common questions Muslims can´t answer:

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I don’t believe Sarah was a slave. If you’re referring to Hagar, no he did not marry her - this has been discussed elsewhere. MuslimWoman confirmed for me that 1st wives do not have any control over subsequent wives in polygamist families so Sarah would have had no authority to send her away. Also, the angel who spoke to Hagar afterward addressed her as “servant of Sarai”, not “wife of Abram”

The phrase “gave her to her husband to be his wife” was simply a euphemism for sexual intercourse.

So, yes, Abraham committed adultery.
No, Abraham didn’t commit adultery

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

this should answer your question:

Also, I would still like to know how having sex with captive women works toward the abolishment of slavery, gives glory to God and does not violate His commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery”.
 
No, Abraham didn’t commit adultery
Yes, he did - he had sex with a woman who was not his wife. How is that not adultery?

(Also, please note that just because he did this, does not mean that Christians believe he was evil or is in hell. Obviously he repented and God forgave him because He gave Abraham and Sarah Isaac with whom he made His covenant.)
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.
this should answer your question:
Also, I would still like to know how having sex with captive women works toward the abolishment of slavery, gives glory to God and does not violate His commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery”.
No, that does not answer the question. That does not say anything about already having a wife and taking a second one or taking the captive woman as a second wife. Marriage does give glory to God when it is in a sacramental union between one man and one woman and is an expression of love.

Not to mention, the Quran doesn’t say to marry the captive woman - it just says sex is permissable with those whom your “right hand possesses”. It seems to make adultery (having sex with someone who is not your wife) permissable in the eyes of God. :confused:

The question of divorce which seems to be permitted in the above verse was also addressed by Jesus who said that it was only permitted because of the hardness of people’s hearts.
7"Why then," they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
Matthew 19:7-9
Muhammad seemed to ignore this teaching of Jesus as well.

This also does not address how having sex with a captive woman, particularly when you are already married works to abolish slavery.
 
No, Abraham didn’t commit adultery

Deuteronomy 21:10-14

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

this should answer your question:
Honestly, I cannot see how this (Deut 21:10-14) applies to Abraham’s case. We should not freely apply Biblical stories loosely to suit the outcome of our own doctrine.

Hagar was a slave, not war captive. In Jesus’ interpretation, to have sex with a woman other than your wife is adultery. Hagar was not Abraham’s wife and therefore the sex was illegitimate. The son was born out of wedlock. In any case Mosaic’s law was compiled long after Abraham’s time though that’s beside the point.

The point is Hagar was never a wife of Abraham.
Also, I would still like to know how having sex with captive women works toward the abolishment of slavery, gives glory to God and does not violate His commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery”.
Jesus said because you have a hard of heart that’s the reason for Moses to grant divorce. It was not so in the first place. It was never God’s plan or intention to grant divorce because after a husband marries to his wife they become one flesh and nobody should ever separate them.

The Mosaic Law that you are quoting was merely addressing the inequity of men and it’s never to be meant as permanent otherwise Jesus would have confirmed it. He didn’t. Rather he reiterated that there are no slaves and differences among men but all are children of God.

If there’s doubt on the interpretation of the Laws, then refer to Jesus who has the final say on them. Slavery was never meant to be a permanent affair as was the state of Gentile.
 
Still looking for answers:
I would still like to know how having sex with captive women works toward the abolishment of slavery, gives glory to God and does not violate His commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery”.
 
Jay53
Re: Common questions Muslims can´t answer:
Still looking for answers:
Seems that our Muslim brothers and sisters have withered away their confidence…
MW, Planten, Sis Amy, elwill, hamba2han, ect seemed to have fled away either for not able to ans the questions or they’ve questioning themselves right now whether they’re in the right path 😉

Anyway, I sincerely pray for them that they would be guided to the right path.
🙂
 
Still looking for answers:
I would still like to know how having sex with captive women works toward the abolishment of slavery, gives glory to God and does not violate His commandment “Thou shall not commit adultery”.

hi , jay
Let’s first agree that speaking about something that does not exist in the modern world is troubling our minds with things that are not socially constructive or needed nowadays.

Speaking about slavery in this era of technology seems to be off the track or outdated, simply because we have so many other issues that represent a real challenge for Muslims and non-Muslims.

Basically, Islam came while slavery was an inherited tradition, very deep-rooted in the heart of the Arab society. Children born from a relation between a master and his slave woman were not recognized as free children. On the contrary, they were to follow the hard track of their mothers and lead a tough life of slavery and humiliation.

A master had the right to have sexual relations with his slave woman with no rights due to her. Such a relation was not socially frowned upon because it was normal in that society, but what was really awful is that the slave woman had no rights, making her simply a sex object.

Since Islam came to liberate people from the chains of being socially neglected or humiliated, Islam said that such a relationship must have certain rights. It must mark a change in the life of that slave woman and the outcome of the relation, namely the child. The child was considered free and recognized as the child of the master and no more his slave.

As for the slave woman, such a relationship meant an end to her life as a slave, for she would not be the slave of anyone after her master, the father of her child. That is, she could not be sold to anyone else, and she would be manumitted at her master’s death.
rather , she would be elevated to the status of umm walad or mother of a free child, which gave her the privilege of being freed once the father of her child died. Basically, her remaining as umm walad did not really mean she was staying as a slave; rather, she was honored and respected.
This is a unique solution Islam offered to such a miserable life, and imagine what a great change it brought and how many smiles it drew on the faces of many of these agonized slaves.

When Islam came, slavery existed, no doubt about it. And when Islam wanted to ban it, it brought logical and practical solutions for that problem. Many people had their businesses based on trading in slaves and many people were already in the bondage of slavery under their masters at that time.

Let us suppose that Islam had said, overnight, “no more slavery,” what would have happened? Many people would have lost their businesses and gone bankrupt, and the economic stability of the society would have been jeopardized. Worse still, many slaves would have found themselves in the street with no shelter or ability to establish a new life.

Therefore, Islam wanted to bring slavery to an end and drain its sources but in a way that would end happily without causing disruption in the society. Islam started by limiting the sources of acquiring slaves. It prohibited raiding caravans and settled people, and kidnapping and enslaving their women and children. It highly valued the manumission of slaves, and made the freeing of slaves one way of coming nearer to Allah.

Coming to the point of considering a sexual relationship with a female slave as adultery
I would like to say that it was never considered so for several reasons:
  1. A female slave was under the right hand of her master and he was allowed to sleep only with whoever was under his ownership. This was considered like an indirect or special wedlock.
  2. The relationship itself was within boundaries and involved rights and responsibilities like the issue of umm al-walad and the freedom of the child, for example. This meant that it was, by no means, similar to adultery, which incurs no rights and establishes no responsibilities. In adultery, any passerby can sleep with a woman and just flee without taking any responsibility for any resulting child or for the woman, which is obviously not the case here.
One remaining point here is that masters did not have to sleep with their female slaves. It was something allowable but not obligatory. Yet it presented, to some extent and in certain times, one glowing way to freedom for many people who suffered slavery.

Also, the Prophet’s mission was not to eradicate slavery, but to establish rights and bring people to the point of being able to eradicate it from their own hearts first before they eradicated it from society. No one can deny that it happened ideally and practically.
 
Seems that our Muslim brothers and sisters have withered away their confidence…
MW, Planten, Sis Amy, elwill, hamba2han, ect seemed to have fled away either for not able to ans the questions or they’ve questioning themselves right now whether they’re in the right path 😉

Anyway, I sincerely pray for them that they would be guided to the right path.
🙂
firstly , thank you for the challange you raised up
secondly , thank you for your prayers , i appreciated your emotions , but if you don’t mind can i ask you to pray for me your god the father not your god the son , ( the God the father is common God between us 👍)
 
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elwill:
firstly , thank you for the challange you raised up
secondly , thank you for your prayers , i appreciated your emotions , but if you don’t mind can i ask you to pray for me your god the father not your god the son , ( the God the father is common God between us )
Well anyway, since I’m not Muslim how can you tell me not to pray to Jesus. You’re not putting yourself as my commandant I guess.:rolleyes:
 
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elwill:
Coming to the point of considering a sexual relationship with a female slave as adultery
I would like to say that it was never considered so for several reasons:
  1. A female slave was under the right hand of her master and he was allowed to sleep only with whoever was under his ownership. This was considered like an indirect or special wedlock.
  2. The relationship itself was within boundaries and involved rights and responsibilities like the issue of umm al-walad and the freedom of the child, for example. This meant that it was, by no means, similar to adultery, which incurs no rights and establishes no responsibilities. In adultery, any passerby can sleep with a woman and just flee without taking any responsibility for any resulting child or for the woman, which is obviously not the case here.
:eek:to the bold words…so this means that the slave has no rights whatsoever to fight back or oppose the master for whatever filthy intention the master has? They don’t have option to choose their husband at all? And you think that this will somehow liberate the female slave. We’re not even talking about the male slaves that would just be rotten under the ownership of the master! You said islam frees female slaves when the masters died and the children will be free. The children has the master’s dna for god’s sake, to reject them their rights as children is most evil thing to do, you don’t have to have a prophet to tell such thing.

You also seem to blind your eyes with the fact that under cheap labor forces imported from many poor underdeveloped countries, many rich Muslim in Arab countries really continue to enjoy themselves of having “legal slave”. News in Indonesia have many times reported how bad those maids have been treated by their master. If you think Islam will diminish this eventually, then looking into reality, it doesn’t seem so.

Now, talking about responsibility, the master can still sell those slaves when he is still alive to the market right? So what about selling the slaves and keeping the child. In the case when the master can’t get child from legal wife, it seems that this is a very “convenient” way to get whatever someone wants if he has power and money.

:mad:
 
:eek:to the bold words…so this means that the slave has no rights whatsoever to fight back or oppose the master for whatever filthy intention the master has? They don’t have option to choose their husband at all? And you think that this will somehow liberate the female slave. We’re not even talking about the male slaves that would just be rotten under the ownership of the master! You said islam frees female slaves when the masters died and the children will be free. The children has the master’s dna for god’s sake, to reject them their rights as children is most evil thing to do, you don’t have to have a prophet to tell such thing.
this is the troubling which i talked about in the first two lines in my post

anyway , what about making constructive discussion with showing me how christianity and teaching of jesus dealed with or offered to women slaves or slavery as whole !!!

i think it added nothing untill 700 years / establishment of islam

show me comparison , so that i can realize how evil the teaching of mohammed (pbuh) was !!!
You also seem to blind your eyes with the fact that under cheap labor forces imported from many poor underdeveloped countries, many rich Muslim in Arab countries really continue to enjoy themselves of having “legal slave”. News in Indonesia have many times reported how bad those maids have been treated by their master. If you think Islam will diminish this eventually, then looking into reality, it doesn’t seem so.
is that happened in just indonesia , i thought that maids can be treated badly by any bad people from any religion
beside i don’t think that maids = slaves , are they the same in your english ?
anyway , indonesia is very far country to learn islam from them , i prefer to learn islam from quran and sunnah directly 🙂
Now, talking about responsibility, the master can still sell those slaves when he is still alive to the market right? So what about selling the slaves and keeping the child. In the case when the master can’t get child from legal wife, it seems that this is a very “convenient” way to get whatever someone wants if he has power and money.
be easy seraphime2008 , i’m just represent the issue from my point of view
but for answering your question
no , it wasn’t permessable for master to selling mother of free child , i allready said that
In the case when the master can’t get child from legal wife, it seems that this is a very “convenient” way to get whatever someone wants if he has power and money.
are you have problems with that ?
 
this is the troubling which i talked about in the first two lines in my post
anyway , what about making constructive discussion with showing me how christianity and teaching of jesus dealed with or offered to women slaves or slavery as whole !!!
i think it added nothing untill 700 years / establishment of islam
show me comparison , so that i can realize how evil the teaching of mohammed (pbuh) was !!!
Hey…hey…elwill, you calm down yourself! I really want to answer every answers your pointing me, but I’m rather busy right now working. I’ll get back to you later. But to answer generally I find what Jesus said is that every man and woman are equal, and if any thing mentioned in the bible telling about anybody put someone under their payment to get their service, they have to realize that they have a Master too in heaven so they have to do justice and not taking advantage.

Anyway you said that Indonesia is the not a good case for learning Islam, I’m sorry my friend, in here I found that most Muslims can really tolerate pluralism, thanks to God that they don’t copy their muslim counterparts in Arab. And for the matters you address, you don’t get the point, it’s the Arab who are still backward or lack of knowledge so to speak to be able to learn from your so called Holy book to address the problems of differentiating slaves and maids…right?

Anyway good day , enjoy your self here. Don’t put too much pressure on your mind as truth isn’t so difficult to gain as long as you have open mind.

😉
 
Let’s first agree that speaking about something that does not exist in the modern world is troubling our minds with things that are not socially constructive or needed nowadays.
Again, I’m not so sure it doesn’t exist today in Muslim countries. My point is that this is called for in the Quran which Muslims believe to be for all people at all times. Which means that in any wars, Muslims would feel justified in taking captive women, invalidating their current marriages and then feel free to have sex with them. To me, this is a concern because this is an unholy practice being touted as something from God.
Speaking about slavery in this era of technology seems to be off the track or outdated, simply because we have so many other issues that represent a real challenge for Muslims and non-Muslims.
I agree that there are other issues, but again, this is something that is in the Quran which is to be for all people at all times. 🤷
Let us suppose that Islam had said, overnight, “no more slavery,” what would have happened? Many people would have lost their businesses and gone bankrupt, and the economic stability of the society would have been jeopardized. Worse still, many slaves would have found themselves in the street with no shelter or ability to establish a new life.
Therefore, Islam wanted to bring slavery to an end and drain its sources but in a way that would end happily without causing disruption in the society. Islam started by limiting the sources of acquiring slaves. It prohibited raiding caravans and settled people, and kidnapping and enslaving their women and children. It highly valued the manumission of slaves, and made the freeing of slaves one way of coming nearer to Allah.
I can possibly agree that just saying “no more slavery” would have presented its own challenges. My issue is why didn’t Muhammad prescribe for the ending of slavery with NO SEX with the female slaves. Why would it have presented a problem for men to not violate their captive women?
Coming to the point of considering a sexual relationship with a female slave as adultery
I would like to say that it was never considered so for several reasons:
  1. A female slave was under the right hand of her master and he was allowed to sleep only with whoever was under his ownership. This was considered like an indirect or special wedlock.
  1. The relationship itself was within boundaries and involved rights and responsibilities like the issue of umm al-walad and the freedom of the child, for example. This meant that it was, by no means, similar to adultery, which incurs no rights and establishes no responsibilities. In adultery, any passerby can sleep with a woman and just flee without taking any responsibility for any resulting child or for the woman, which is obviously not the case here.
One remaining point here is that masters did not have to sleep with their female slaves. It was something allowable but not obligatory. Yet it presented, to some extent and in certain times, one glowing way to freedom for many people who suffered slavery.
Also, the Prophet’s mission was not to eradicate slavery, but to establish rights and bring people to the point of being able to eradicate it from their own hearts first before they eradicated it from society. No one can deny that it happened ideally and practically.
Sorry, but this is just a rationalization for bad behavior. This basically is redefining “adultery”. Adultery is having sex with someone who is not your wife. Pretending that you are giving them rights while protecting them does not make them your wife and is still adultery. I honestly don’t understand how you don’t see that.
 
firstly , thank you for the challange you raised up
secondly , thank you for your prayers , i appreciated your emotions , but if you don’t mind can i ask you to pray for me your god the father not your god the son , ( the God the father is common God between us 👍)
Praying to just God the Father is not possible. God is ONE. 🙂
 
One remaining point here is that masters did not have to sleep with their female slaves. It was something allowable but not obligatory. Yet it presented, to some extent and in certain times, one glowing way to freedom for many people who suffered slavery.

Also, the Prophet’s mission was not to eradicate slavery, but to establish rights and . No one can deny that it happened ideally and practically.
This is the part I don’t understand - “it was something allowable but not obligatory”.

How does sharing in sexual intimacy with a captive woman express the love intended to be shared between married persons?

Why couldn’t Muhammad “establish rights and bring people to the point of being able to eradicate it from their own hearts first before they eradicated it from society” while still abolishing the practice of having sex with the women? I just don’t understand how sexual intercourse with a captive woman gives glory to God and strengthens the bond between a husband and wife.

On a side note, in reading some Islamic forums regarding this issue, a poster brought up the point that the female captive is to answer the “call to the bed” in the same way a Muslim wife is supposed to (she can only refuse if menstruating, sick, or would be physically hurt) and if they do not, then the “master” has the right to apply Sharia law to compel her, including “hitting her lightly etc” (those were the words used).
 
Again, I’m not so sure it doesn’t exist today in Muslim countries. My point is that this is called for in the Quran which Muslims believe to be for all people at all times. Which means that in any wars, Muslims would feel justified in taking captive women, invalidating their current marriages and then feel free to have sex with them. To me, this is a concern because this is an unholy practice being touted as something from God.

I agree that there are other issues, but again, this is something that is in the Quran which is to be for all people at all times. 🤷
you insist and repeat that quran for all people at all times , i agree
so let us talking about our time
the time of slavery gone
I can possibly agree that just saying “no more slavery” would have presented its own challenges. My issue is why didn’t Muhammad prescribe for the ending of slavery with NO SEX with the female slaves. Why would it have presented a problem for men to not violate their captive women?
may be he prefered to free slaves women or give them the chance of freedom than keeping them slaves all thier life it’s another chance for freedom to those women .
it’s a positivie step to eleminate the slavery

for (muslims) it’s another kind of marriage , there is rights for the slave if you made sexual relationship with her , there are responsibilies upon the master toward this slave women , he will treat her as his wife
the only difference is that he take slave woman instead of free woman as wife

i allready gave you my reasons to consider it not adultery
sexual relationship with slave in return of benfits of freedom to this women was legal marriage in islam

chapter 2
221 - Don’t marry unbelieving women(indolaters)until they believe: a slave woman who believes is better than unbelieving woman, even though she allure you. nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: a man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allure you. unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the fire. but God beckons by his grace to the garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes his signs clear to mankind: that they may celebrate his praise.
but if you insist to consider it adultery , then you have problem with most of prophets of God in your bible

so , sexual relationship with slaves is normal arrangeged marriage , as the quran said : the marriage from muslim slave is better than marriage from non muslim free woman

and this verse also encourage the society to marry from slaves women , it’s another good step to eliminate the slavery from muslims society
 
Here is another question that they can not answer.
Q. Do you know for sure that when you die that you will be in heaven with God?
Muslims will say that they are not sure. The Bible says that you can know for sure, 1 John 5:13.
 
A new punishment for adultery?

kamilpasha.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fft5_mf173981.jpg

kamilpasha.com/2009/05/16/another-dishonorable-murder-attempt/

“23-year-old Yildiz A. was stabbed in the stomach six or seven times and her nose and ears and part of her lip cut off, then she was dumped in a field on the road between Boyalan and Taskesen villages. She managed to crawl to the road and was spotted by a minibus driver who took her to the hospital where she is in intensive care. According to the newspapers, Yildiz A. was married and accused of having a relationship with another man, so a “family council” was called and it was decided to kill her to “cleanse the family’s honor”. (click here for the article in Turkish) The savagery of this particular attack stands out — I had heard of such mutilations in Pakistan, but not in Turkey. On the other hand, Ayse Onal’s excellent book Honor Killing in which she interviews the men in jail who had carried out “honor” killings, gives other incredibly brutal examples. The one that sticks in my mind is running the girl over with a tractor so it looked like an accident. Is the gratuitous brutality level increasing? Or are we just now starting to hear about it? If you believe in this code, it is sufficient to kill the person to “cleanse” honor, but there appears to be lots of room for torture and revenge. What’s that word I keep using? Insafsiz.”

How can anyone justify something like this? This is sick!

Vickie
 
you insist and repeat that quran for all people at all times , i agree
so let us talking about our time
the time of slavery gone
But it can be re-instituted unless the Quran has a verse permanently and completely abolishing all slavery.
may be he prefered to free slaves women or give them the chance of freedom than keeping them slaves all thier life it’s another chance for freedom to those women .
it’s a positivie step to eleminate the slavery
for (muslims) it’s another kind of marriage , there is rights for the slave if you made sexual relationship with her , there are responsibilies upon the master toward this slave women , he will treat her as his wife
the only difference is that he take slave woman instead of free woman as wife
i allready gave you my reasons to consider it not adultery
sexual relationship with slave in return of benfits of freedom to this women was legal marriage in islam
So the woman has to prostitute herself in order to gain her freedom and you call that a legal marriage?

Does the Quran say the man has to legally marry the woman? And what about if he already has 4 wives?

I just don’t see how this situation is any different than cohabitation in other societies. The man ‘protects’ the woman and if she has a child he is legally responsible for him/her. Muslims, however, seem to condemn Western society and cohabitation all the time. 🤷
so , sexual relationship with slaves is normal arrangeged marriage , as the quran said : the marriage from muslim slave is better than marriage from non muslim free woman
and this verse also encourage the society to marry from slaves women , it’s another good step to eliminate the slavery from muslims society
You are speaking of an actual marriage. The Quran says “those that your right hand possesses”. That is not marriage. Unless you are saying that all of these “masters” had legal marriage ceremonies to these slaves. Somehow I doubt it. Some of these women were already married and being taken captive supposedly somehow invalidated their marriage. 🤷

You seem to be willing to condone adultery if it is presented in different terms and seem to think that God also permits adultery under such terms. :dts:
 
may be he prefered to free slaves women or give them the chance of freedom than keeping them slaves all thier life it’s another chance for freedom to those women .
it’s a positivie step to eleminate the slavery
So the only way Muhammad would give them their freedom is for them to have sex with him? He wasn’t honorable enough to be able to free them without that condition? :mad: 😦

And, I ask again, how does having sex with the woman work as a positive step to eliminate slavery? Unless it’s only if she gets pregnant? So this poor woman, whose family has been murdered has to hope she gets pregnant by her captor so that she can gain her freedom? Why does sex have to be part of the equation at all?
but if you insist to consider it adultery , then you have problem with most of prophets of God in your bible
Some of the prophets possibly did commit adultery - but I would still call it what it is - not try to dress it up and pretend it’s something better than it is. Despite what Muslims would like to believe, all of the prophets were human and as such were sinners/not perfect. That doesn’t mean that they did not repent and were forgiven for their sins. But I don’t believe there are any prophets who specifically delivered a message that adultery is acceptable in the eyes of God. If you know of one, I’d like to see that.

Jesus is the only one who IS perfect and I have no problem with Him or His message. 🙂
 
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