"communicatio in sacris"

[Sirach2]

VivaCristoRey27:

What’s an example of that? That you cannot engage in communicatio in sacris with non-Catholics, you cannot even pray with non-Catholics.

This second part (bolded) is a false teaching.
Vatican II:

1. This change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name, “spiritual ecumenism.”

In certain special circumstances, such as the prescribed prayers “for unity,” and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren. Such prayers in common are certainly an effective means of obtaining the grace of unity, and they are a true expression of the ties which still bind Catholics to their separated brethren. “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them”.

Yet worship in common (communicatio in sacris) is not to be considered as a means to be used indiscriminately for the restoration of Christian unity.

 

[paperwight66]

Thank you for posting that reference, Sirach2.

This thread had puzzled me, because I know that during Christian Unity Week here in the UK, there is a lot of sharing of pulpits, and of representatives of the various members of ecumenical groupings attending each other’s services. Every Royal wedding or similar has Catholic clergy attending the (C. of E). service. Indeed, the Pope attended a service at the C.of E. Westminster Abbey during his visit to the UK.

There are other ecumenical occasions supported by the Catholic church. For instance, Women’s World Day of Prayer.

Is the situation different in the States?

 

[Sirach2]

No different here in the U.S., Paperwight. The Church is universal. In my area particularly, we hold ecumenical prayer gatherings in lent at the several denominational churches, each one taking a turn to act as host for the area churches. I note this was not a worship service, but a simple uniting for prayer to our Triune God, who is adored by all. They serve a lovely luncheon afterwards, and it is always well attended.

Of course, who could forget the common gatherings for prayer after 911. We bridged all faiths, praying with many christians who grieved one with the other.

 

[Derek_Ellery]

Council of Carthage, 418

One must neither pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the church, whether clergy or layman; let him be excommunicated.
**
III Council of Constantinople, 680**
*
If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or the meeting-houses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of communion. If any bishop or priest or deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be suspended from communion.*

Code of Canon Law, 1917
*
#1258 - 1. It is not permitted at all for the faithful to assist in any active manner at or to have any part in the worship of non-Catholics.*

 

[At_Trent]

Let’s not leave out the specifics

1. This change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name, “spiritual ecumenism.”

In certain special circumstances, such as the prescribed prayers “for unity,” and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren. Such prayers in common are certainly an effective means of obtaining the grace of unity, and they are a true expression of the ties which still bind Catholics to their separated brethren. “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them”.

**Yet worship in common (communicatio in sacris) is not to be considered as a means to be used indiscriminately for the restoration of Christian unity. **

Also,
This change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name, "spiritual ecumenism."

So it’s clear that this new ecumenism isn’t the same as the traditional ecumenism of return.

Not saying the Church has erred, but just pointing out that it can be fairly argued there is an obvious contradiction.

 

[Sirach2]

**

Code of Canon Law, 1917

**
Derek Ellery:

#1258 - 1. It is not permitted at all for the faithful to assist in any active manner at or to have any part in the worship of non-Catholics.

You are missing the keyword “worship.” As I noted in my post, these are NOT participations in worship, but simply prayer gatherings, which Canon Law did not forbid. I think you are taking this out of context.

 

[Derek_Ellery]

---

You are missing the keyword “worship.” As I noted in my post, these are NOT participations in worship, but simply prayer gatherings, which Canon Law did not forbid. I think you are taking this out of context.

Protestants consider prayer to be worship, as a Catholic you know that is incorrect, however, inter-religious prayer has also been condemned, as was pointed out in my previous post.

 

[Sirach2]

At Trent:

Not saying the Church has erred, but just pointing out that it can be fairly argued there is an obvious contradiction.

Not saying, eh? The Church is not only speaking through this one paragraph #8, but has spoken clearly in numerous other documents and encyclicals. If anyone chooses to misinterpret Her teaching, then rest with your error. Bishops and priests all over the US and the world are engaging in ecumenical prayer. Obviously some are not listening.

 

[Sirach2]

Protestants consider prayer to be worship, as a Catholic you know that is incorrect, however, inter-religious prayer has also been condemned, as was pointed out in my previous post.

Not going to argue with you Derek. SSPX also promotes the same error. Obviously, it is not the Church that is wrong, but you need to do some homework to understand the ecumenical documents and teaching of Vatican II.

Do you realize that in quoting the Council in 418 A.D. there was no other religion but Catholic? In stating that one should not pray with heretics, the Church was speaking truth. That is not the situation today, with thousands of denominations, who have valid baptism and are considered by the Church to be brothers in the Spirit, though not in fullness of Truth.

**Council of Carthage, 418
**One must neither pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the church, whether clergy or layman; let him be excommunicated.

 

[At_Trent]

Not saying, eh? The Church is not only speaking through this one paragraph #8, but has spoken clearly in numerous other documents and encyclicals. If anyone chooses to misinterpret Her teaching, then rest with your error. Bishops and priests all over the US and the world are engaging in ecumenical prayer. Obviously some are not listening.

Ok, show me the error in my post. What have I stated that is not true ?

 

[Derek_Ellery]

Not going to argue with you Derek. SSPX also promotes the same error. Obviously, it is not the Church that is wrong, but you need to do some homework to understand the ecumenical documents and teaching of Vatican II.

**Mathew Chapter 7 **

[16] By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? [17] Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. [18] A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. [19] Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. [20] Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

**Pope Paul VI **

“We believed that after the Council would come a day of sunshine in the history of the Church. But instead there has come a day of clouds and storms, and of darkness … And how did this come about? We will confide to you the thought that may be, we ourselves admit in free discussion, that may be unfounded, and that is that there has been a power, an adversary power. Let us call him by his name: the devil. … It is as if from some mysterious crack, no, it is not mysterious, from some crack the smoke of Satan has entered the Temple of God.”

 

[Sirach2]

Derek Ellery:

Hello, my name is Derek.
I am a Traditional Catholic who accepts completely the timeless Magesterium of our Holy Church, and rejects all deviations wrought about by Vatican II, and the post- conciliar Church. I believe the Catholic Church is the Ark of Salvation, and therefore also completely reject ecumenism, and the errors of Protestantism.

From your “meet and greet” introduction. No need to talk any further.

 

[At_Trent]

Not saying, eh? The Church is not only speaking through this one paragraph #8, but has spoken clearly in numerous other documents and encyclicals. If anyone chooses to misinterpret Her teaching, then rest with your error. Bishops and priests all over the US and the world are engaging in ecumenical prayer. Obviously some are not listening.

Ok, show me the error in my post. What have I stated that is not true ?

no reply = no error ?

 

[Celticnovice]

thank you! I’m just sort of confused… because “communicatio in sacris” means sharing in sacred things, yet are not sacramentals sacred things? Maybe I’m taking this too literally. Again I mean using sacramentals at home, not publically in a Church setting. (if I would visit an Orthodox church with my family in the future, it would be if I don’t have much of a choice, and I would only observe there).

Monica,

Take a look at this: newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02ol.htm

H.H. Blessed Pope John Paul II encouraged Catholics to become familiar with the treasures of Eastern Christianity…This letter is called Orientale Lumen

 

[Sirach2]

no reply = no error ?

At Trent, from past experience, no reply means I’m not looking forward to an argument, nor am I willing to repost the citations that have been all over this forum for years and months, all of which you have assuredly seen.

So, no, you keep your own opinion - I’ll keep mine.

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

This second part (bolded) is a false teaching.

Sorry, but the Tradition is right, Vatican II is wrong.

Synod of Laodicea, Can. XXXIII: “No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.”

This same teaching is repeated consistently throughout Church history. False ecumenism doesn’t replace Catholic teaching.

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

---

You are missing the keyword “worship.” As I noted in my post, these are NOT participations in worship, but simply prayer gatherings, which Canon Law did not forbid. I think you are taking this out of context.

Is there a purpose to prayer except to worship God?

So, it’s okay to pray in common as long as your intention is purely secular and unrelated to God? So are we praying to man then?

 

[Walking_Home]

Sorry, but the Tradition is right, Vatican II is wrong.

Synod of Laodicea, Can. XXXIII: “No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics.”

This same teaching is repeated consistently throughout Church history. False ecumenism doesn’t replace Catholic teaching.

---

So–by you people —it would be wrong–for Catholics to pray alongside protestants and/or the Orthodox–in front of an abortion clinic.

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

Not saying, eh? The Church is not only speaking through this one paragraph #8, but has spoken clearly in numerous other documents and encyclicals. If anyone chooses to misinterpret Her teaching, then rest with your error. Bishops and priests all over the US and the world are engaging in ecumenical prayer. Obviously some are not listening.

Exactly. And the Church teaching is that Catholics cannot participate in the assemblies of heretics nor pray with them. Unfortunately, some people have been scandalized by the modern errors.

 

[VivaCristoRey27]

---

So–by you people —it would be wrong–for Catholics to pray alongside protestants and/or the Orthodox–in front of an abortion clinic.

One can be praying in the same vicinity as non-Catholics, but one cannot join their prayer to the non-Catholic’s prayer. There’s a distinct difference.