Communion alone is ‘not the solution’ for divorced and re-married Catholics, says Pope Francis

[Memaw]

Once you are remarried even if you were the victim in the divorce, you are known as an adulterer. So now you say to repent, this to you is don’t have sex with your second spouse? This is a solution for you? Or is the solution a long drawn out Annulment process instead. Have you ever looked at the Annulment questions? If so what is your opinion on answering them accurately, say after 10 years or more?

Most annulments take about a year. This “Long drawn out process” as you call it, is rare. One who remarries after a civil divorce without an annulment. is not just “known” as an adulterer, one is an adulterer. You seem to have a very negative attitude towards the Church trying to help those is such a situation. Living in sin can be a very long drawn out process, much longer than the annulment process. Have you ever read the questions in an annulment process? God Bless, Memaw

 

[tigerprowl]

Most annulments take about a year. This “Long drawn out process” as you call it, is rare. One who remarries after a civil divorce without an annulment. is not just “known” as an adulterer, one is an adulterer. You seem to have a very negative attitude towards the Church trying to help those is such a situation. Living in sin can be a very long drawn out process, much longer than the annulment process. Have you ever read the questions in an annulment process? God Bless, Memaw

And this is where a lot of us in this situation question the process. The word “adulterer” is equal, whether or not your spouse filed for divorce, cheated on you, left you, even if you fought to keep the marriage alive, or if you cheated, lied, became promiscuous, broke promises, etc.

I think the two above individuals are very different, yet we are tossing them into the same “adulterer” bucket. This is very concerning. Certainly, in both cases, a lot of time, healing, retrospective, examination of conscience, and change of behavior is needed - but in different degrees entirely.

 

[ProVobis]

And this is where a lot of us in this situation question the process. The word “adulterer” is equal, whether or not your spouse filed for divorce, cheated on you, left you, even if you fought to keep the marriage alive, or if you cheated, lied, became promiscuous, broke promises, etc.

I don’t know how one can respond to this, but personally I think the questions which are asked on the annulment form should be given to all couples contemplating marriage. Perhaps even a sexual compatibility test. If it would lead to more understanding between the individuals and fewer marriages, so be it, but it seems that it’s too late to find out tendencies to cheat, excess spending of money, etc. after marriage. Not picking on you but just sayin…

 

[Phil502]

First, they shouldn’t be waiting 10 years if they are serious about their faith. Second, I found the questions challenging, thought provoking, and healing. Sorry if others found them too much of a bother.

I waited 13 years. My faith was challenged along the way. I would argue that there are many - most - devout Catholics who have at times questioned their faith in some way. Some merely wait because it’s a theater of pain every time they think about their failed marriage.

I hear you. It took me almost that long too. And it is painful, no doubt about it.

So which one is it? Or are you saying you were not serious about your faith. Why one answer for me and another for someone else?

Nice post Tigerprowl, I find myself in the same position past and present as you.

 

[Phil502]

That’s just it, the person is NOT remarried. You cannot be remarried if you’re still married. Civil marriage has no effect on religious marriage. If you want someone to blame, blame the government who allows people to abandon their spouse for no justifiable reason. It is not up to the Church to turn a blind eye to sin because individuals don’t want live with the consequences of their actions.

I have been through the annulment process and answered the questions more than 10 years after I was married. Honesty, not accuracy, is the standard for filling out the forms.

A solution would be to sever civil and religious marriage. And do a better job of Catechesis, including the fact that for Catholic’s a civil marriage is not a marriage.

The thing the Church is considering is what to do from here. Divorced and remarried are remarried just not in the eyes of the church, there is still people involved, you don’t just walk away now.

I can’t expect the government to police spouses who walk away from their marriage.

 

[Phil502]

Most annulments take about a year. This “Long drawn out process” as you call it, is rare. One who remarries after a civil divorce without an annulment. is not just “known” as an adulterer, one is an adulterer. You seem to have a very negative attitude towards the Church trying to help those is such a situation. Living in sin can be a very long drawn out process, much longer than the annulment process. Have you ever read the questions in an annulment process? God Bless, Memaw

You are wrong about what I think. I’m glad the church offers Annulment, I actually want more people to come back into the Church, shouldn’t we all?

I guess when you are married to a spouse who cheats on you and then you get divorced and you know the relationship is forever severed, it’s similiar to you as if they were deceased.
Then when you get civilly remarried you still don’t put yourself in the equal position of adulterer simply because you are not victimizing another human being.

Yes I have read the questions, thoroughly.

 

[ProVobis]

So which one is it? Or are you saying you were not serious about your faith. Why one answer for me and another for someone else?

I admitted I wasn’t as serious as I should have been. In retrospect, I should have asked my pastor about obtaining an annulment before dating again. But for what it’s worth, I was still attending Mass. I didn’t see any reason not to.

 

[bisco1]

what do we say to single people who haven’t found a spouse?

 

[otjm]

Is it always unknown? What if the party knows the marriage was invalid? This may not be the case always or even often, but it can be the case, and has been the case at times.

I could see it where lack of form was the invalidity of the first marriage. That, however, is so easily resolved that it is not really the subject of denial of Communion because it can be remedied so quickly.

Beyond that, in my opinion, it gets so murky so fast that I am not sure the couple can sort that out. Maybe their advocate could based on prior case resolutions and current to this case facts.

However, I am assuming that the issue of Communion to those in irregular marriages are not the set of those with clearly or reasonably clear impediments, but rather, those who for whatever reason are not able to provide testimony as to an impediment, and/or those who have gone through a tribunal, (or tribunal and appeal) and have been told that a decision of nullity is not sustained.

Then, again, I may be misunderstanding the discussions at the first synod - not having been there hampers discussion to a degree.

 

[otjm]

And this is where a lot of us in this situation question the process. The word “adulterer” is equal, whether or not your spouse filed for divorce, cheated on you, left you, even if you fought to keep the marriage alive, or if you cheated, lied, became promiscuous, broke promises, etc.

I think the two above individuals are very different, yet we are tossing them into the same “adulterer” bucket. This is very concerning. Certainly, in both cases, a lot of time, healing, retrospective, examination of conscience, and change of behavior is needed - but in different degrees entirely.

The two individuals are in different situations. Your first situation may be a person who has committed sin, whether the current (first) marriage is valid or not.

Filing for divorce is not in and of itself sinful. And in any number of circumstances, the one “fighting” to keep the marriage together may be the one causing the other to file for divorce.

“Cheating” is a sin whether or not the marriage is valid. If the marriage is invalid, then it is the sin of fornication; if the marriage is valid, then it is the sin of adultery. In either case, the individual doing so is most likely causing damage to the other in the marriage, validity or not.

But neither of these matters are grounds for a decree of nullity; that is granted only for an impediment that existed on the day of marriage.

If a couple is in a valid marriage - that is, there is no impediment existing on the day of marriage - and one of them gets the “7 year itch”, commits adultery, and one or the other of the marriage files for divorce, neither of them are going to be able to marry again in the eyes of the Church. They will not receive a decree of nullity.

Which brings us around to the marriage vows - “until death do us part”. The Church does not refuse communion to a couple who divorces; it refuses Communion to a couple who contract a second marriage when one (or both) were in a prior marriage, divorced, and no tribunal has issued a decree of nullity.

The point is, one is not an “adulterer” if one is divorced; but one becomes an adulterer when one chooses, after being married and divorced, to marry again without having a determination by the Church that one’s first marriage was not valid. It really does not revolve around the grounds of the first divorce. That could have been because one wanted children and the other didn’t; because of “cheating”, because of violence; because of a mental breakdown or mental disease; or simply because they became bored with each other (often referred to as an “amicable divorce”). None of those issues make the first marriage invalid.

 

[otjm]

what do we say to single people who haven’t found a spouse?

"Take a really long, good look around you. Look at the situations people have gotten themselves into because of the decisions they have made. Understand that when you make a commitment to marry someone, you cannot know their every thought, their every attitude, their weaknesses and their strengths; you may have the very best of intentions in seeking a spouse, but you will be trusting that they see things the way you see them - and no two people see everything exactly alike.

Know also that there is never a fight except that there are two people fighting. Know also that there is no marriage in which only one side makes errors, makes bad judgments, and makes poor decisions. The only purely innocent spouse was Mary."

 

[Phil502]

what do we say to single people who haven’t found a spouse?

"Take a really long, good look around you. Look at the situations people have gotten themselves into because of the decisions they have made. Understand that when you make a commitment to marry someone, you cannot know their every thought, their every attitude, their weaknesses and their strengths; you may have the very best of intentions in seeking a spouse, but you will be trusting that they see things the way you see them - and no two people see everything exactly alike.

Know also that there is never a fight except that there are two people fighting. Know also that there is no marriage in which only one side makes errors, makes bad judgments, and makes poor decisions. The only purely innocent spouse was Mary."

Everything otjm said and one other thing I would add. Watch carefully how your prospective spouse reacts to and treats other people. If it’s badly, then you can be sure that once the honeymoon is over, you will be getting the same treatment.

 

[tigerprowl]

If a couple is in a valid marriage - that is, there is no impediment existing on the day of marriage - and one of them gets the “7 year itch”, commits adultery, and one or the other of the marriage files for divorce, neither of them are going to be able to marry again in the eyes of the Church. They will not receive a decree of nullity.

Right…but any one of those causes of divorces is usually an effect of some defect that was present right from the beginning. If an ex-spouse was willing to lie, cheat, or commit other sins years into the marriage, then it certainly can be argued - and most likely correct - that a defect arised during marriage. What about within the first year, for instance? This happened to me and other I know, and it clearly points to defects that were there prior to marriage.

While my situation is rough, I cannot imagine what it must be like for someone who is dovorced from defects that happened during marriage.

 

[bisco1]

what i meant by, ‘what do we say to single people who haven’t found a spouse’, is that they must be chaste if they never get married. the same thing the church tells those who are separated or divorced. it’s a hardship, and a sacrifice for Christ in both situations. i think this may have been what Jesus was referring to when he said, ‘before building, you must count the cost, to see if you can finish’. these are crosses we bear as catholics.

 

[ProVobis]

what i meant by, ‘what do we say to single people who haven’t found a spouse’, is that they must be chaste if they never get married.

That is true but they’re not cut out of receiving the sacraments. The problem is when the couple decides to live together either with or without civil marriage.

 

[otjm]

what i meant by, ‘what do we say to single people who haven’t found a spouse’, is that they must be chaste if they never get married. the same thing the church tells those who are separated or divorced. it’s a hardship, and a sacrifice for Christ in both situations. i think this may have been what Jesus was referring to when he said, ‘before building, you must count the cost, to see if you can finish’. these are crosses we bear as catholics.

I didn’t read your question that way - my answer has to do with what they need to know before they commit to marrying someone.

I presume Chastity - and am well ware most young people don’t - but that is another issue.

 

[bisco1]

understood, i phrased it poorly. the complaint from remarried couples is that they would have to stop having sex to continue receiving communion. it’s the same with singles.

 

[otjm]

understood, i phrased it poorly. the complaint from remarried couples is that they would have to stop having sex to continue receiving communion. it’s the same with singles.

Yep.

I was more looking at what we need to do to prevent the problem from occurring in the first place - which is getting people to understand the gravity of marriage. It will never stop all divorces, nor will it stop all invalid marriages; but we certainly could do better at marriage prep.

 

[bisco1]

that would definitely help. funny, but there were a number of calls to ca tonite, to jim blackburn and jimmy akin, regarding divorce, remarriage, communion and annulment.

 

[bisco1]

the difficulty is that when people decide to marry, there isn’t much you can say to them that would change their minds.