Comparative Religion and General Faith Discussion

[IgnatianPhilo]

Jesus only inspired John to write what was the necessary and prescribed measure for that age. The concept of a need to worship the Manifestation of God for the age (namely Jesus at that time) was divulged to man by Johns’s Gospel. The future Manifestations of God were also hinted at in the Gospel of John. They were the ones that will guide humanity to all Truth, as “another Comforter” into whom the “Spirit of Truth” will descend upon.

This is a bit like saying that if Moses believed in a Trinitarian God, He would have said so.
If Moses had believed that the Law is death, He would never have revealed a Law in the first place.
If Moses had believed in original sin, He would have said so and taught about the fall.



.

I wasn’t aware there was a need to worship anyone other than God, that is attributing something which belongs to God but not entities which are not God (Jesus). Again, don’t pretend to believe Jesus to be God, I know what you really mean on this point. I think the point in comparing Moses not knowing the trinity to John not knowing about manifestations is mistaken in that why would Jesus imply to his apostles that he was unique? He really wasn’t if Bahai religion is true, Jesus is just one of many prophets and manifestations who are needed for the time but they are not ultimately more important than the other. If Moses were as you argue a Son of God in the sense it is applied to Jesus, the Word as it were applied to Jesus, why withhold this information to give the wrong impression that Jesus in this regard was different from them? It would have been a clarification and a benefit to the Christian community to know this. instead all it did was allow them to fall into the gross error you accuse Christians of following today (Ie thinking Jesus is actually God, Yahweh). (I have to repeat myself because I know you will bring up the point, but don’t say Jesus is God when you know exactly what I mean. Bahai make a formal distinction between manifestations and God)

The fact that Moses didn’t know the trinity doesn’t mean he didn’t know God and nor was the knowledge given to him misleading as to who God was. God is One and there is one God to whom we must worship. That cannot be said of New Testament if Bahai religion is true. If Bahai religion is true the documents of the New testament and indeed the movement Christ started was misguided from the start. I cannot believe that, though bahai religion requires it.

I also agree the apostles guided humanity into all truth with the Holy Spirit. There was no need of further revelation, especially revelation which calls into question what Jesus and his apostles taught. I think you have to admit that John did not believe Moses and Abraham to be part of the Logos, this is how you seek to explain it looking back on to his text. The problem is as I laid out before, if John did not intend what you meant, why did Jesus not reveal this important truth to him? The Apostles were given the spirit afterall, they should have known the Word has many forms and John in writing the gospel as he did sets us up for a false understanding from the very start.

 

[MartinJordan]

I’m sorry you feel that way, however I sincerely believe that I do.

I’ve done everything in my power to investigate God in all His diverse ways throughout the world, and have found that what Jesus is saying is found in Baha’u’llah.

.

It’s clear without Jesus you can’t let go. He saved Mankind. The whole world knows it. He’s your only God but don’t realize it. He’s calling out to you to reconcile with Him.

MJ

 

[Techno2000]

I’ve done everything in my power to investigate God in all His diverse ways throughout the world, and have found that what Jesus is saying is found in Baha’u’llah.

.

Then why do you even bother with Baha’u’llah, and not go with the real thing ?

 

[MartinJordan]

1 cor 5:

11-14 That keeps us vigilant, you can be sure. It’s no light thing **to know that we’ll all one day stand in that place of Judgment. **That’s why we work urgently with everyone we meet to get them ready to face God. God alone knows how well we do this, but I hope you realize how much and deeply we care. We’re not saying this to make ourselves look good to you. We just thought it would make you feel good, proud even, that we’re on your side and not just nice to your face as so many people are. If I acted crazy, I did it for God; if I acted overly serious, I did it for you. Christ’s love has moved me to such extremes. His love has the first and last word in everything we do.

14-15 Our firm decision is to work from this focused center: One man died for everyone. That puts everyone in the same boat. He included everyone in his death so that everyone could also be included in his life, a resurrection life, a far better life than people ever lived on their own.

16-20 Because of this decision we don’t evaluate people by what they have or how they look. We looked at the Messiah that way once and got it all wrong, as you know. We certainly don’t look at him that way anymore. Now we look** inside, and what we see is that anyone united with the Messiah gets a fresh start, is created new**. The old life is gone; a new life burgeons! Look at it! **All this comes from the God who settled the relationship between us and him, and then called us to settle our relationships with each other. God put the world square with himself through the Messiah, giving the world a fresh start by offering forgiveness of sins. **God has given us the task of telling everyone what he is doing. We’re Christ’s representatives. God uses us to persuade men and women to drop their differences and enter into God’s work of making things right between them. We’re speaking for Christ himself now: Become friends with God; he’s already a friend with you.

21 How? you ask. In Christ. God put the wrong on him who never did anything wrong, so we could be put right with God.

MJ

 

[worldcitizen]

No wonder people have turned away from religion. It seems to be just endless theological assertions of who,is right and who is wrong when love and unity is the object of God and His religion.

It’s just a competition to see who can be number one. A disgraceful selfish competition .

Every religion just wants to egotistically assert that its religion and belief is number one & others are false.

That is not religion, nor faith but a sickness. Who cares who is number one? I don’t.

Religion is about unifying hearts, bringing love and peace to the world, ridding the world of poverty and crime and creating virtuous people.

I have no taste for arguing which s better or which is number one. All I’m interested in is there’s a world out there that needs us to be united and lead them out of hell.

What has happened to religion and religionists that all the focus is upon my God is superior to yours. It’s pathetic, egotistical and selfish.

Humanity needs people who will put the best interests of humanity first. The Muslims want to conquer the world, Christians say they possess monopoly on the truth and all else are false gods and prophets, the Jews, Hindus and Buddhists the same.

It’s as if there’s a huge prize for being number one. It’s a real turn off. No wonder people have abandoned religion in droves.

What would happen if we would just all accept each other’s prophet? If the Jews accepted Christ would that be evil? If the Christians accepted Muhammad what would be wrong with that? If we just all accepted each other’s religion we could have peace.

Yet supremists of all faiths insist that until their religion reigns supreme over all the earth they won’t be flexible. How regretful that religionists who say they stand for love and unity don’t give a damn about love and unity of humanity but just want their brand of religion to rule the world. That’s all they truly care about not humanity. That’s the anti Christ.

That’s all religion is about today. My religion must control the world and only my religion is the right one and all others are false. How Regrettable not to be able to see or even try to see the good in the others and work together as one undivided.

The competition between religions is no better than Apple vs Android or PlayStation vs Xbox one its so pathetic and at that level. Like barracking for a football team. Who will win the Religiousbowl the most coveted prize?

No one gives a damn about this competition except religionists. People have run away from religion because of what they perceive is an ignoble farce between faiths of people who aren’t truly religious at all. Truly religious people would want too much to come together for the betterment of humanity yet this is sadly not the case. It’s just an all out competition of who can be number one. And each religion uses its scriptures to try and win this competition of supremacy.

Meanwhile humanity suffers and because of religionist’s stubbornness to come together remains divided and on the brink of nuclear war.

I don’t care who follows what religion. Only that humanity isnt divided against itself for much longer as the world has enough very dangerous weapons to put a stop to this silly competition between religions by destroying half of it and then people will have no option but to unite for their survival and then realise that we are all one.

If that’s the only way for religions to overcome their stubbornness to unite then unfortunately it must happen.

In our minds it’s ’ he’s that’ or ’ she’s this’ or ’ they’re those ’ and so much rubbish enters our minds that is the real antiChrist that stops us from loving all religions and all faiths. That’s the real anti Christ that is supplanting the law of love with the ‘my religion is the only way’ argument and yours is false.

Peace will never happen unless people accept each other’s faiths. And I believe they will one day but maybe after 30-40 nuclear warheads have frightened us into it.

If religion does not unite and bring peace then it should be trashed completely because it has no use to humanity if it just causes division and disagreement and wars.

I’m tired of ‘otherness’ and this ‘us and them’ attitude prevalent in humanity. Let it just be us as one.

 

[Servant19]

Then why do you even bother with Baha’u’llah, and not go with the real thing ?

Because Baha’u’llah gives me a deeper love towards more people than Jesus’ Church does today. I feel closer to my Lord as s result

This is heaven!

.

 

[Servant19]

It’s clear without Jesus you can’t let go. He saved Mankind. The whole world knows it. He’s your only God but don’t realize it. He’s calling out to you to reconcile with Him.

MJ

Thank you dearly Martin.

I’m very much reconciled with Jesus. I feel the sacrifices that He went through to give me the gifts He offered.

I simply feel that today, Baha’u’llah gives me a deeper love than what I see from the Church and the body of Christians globally.

I cannot bring myself to say “I love you” to a Muslim while internally feeling that what they are is based on false (or even worse, satanic) teaching.

My life becomes a contradiction as a result of this, and I feel caged.

I thank Baha’u’llah for the love He has shown me.

.

 

[Servant19]

I wasn’t aware there was a need to worship anyone other than God, that is attributing something which belongs to God but not entities which are not God (Jesus). Again, don’t pretend to believe Jesus to be God, I know what you really mean on this point. I think the point in comparing Moses not knowing the trinity to John not knowing about manifestations is mistaken in that why would Jesus imply to his apostles that he was unique? He really wasn’t if Bahai religion is true, Jesus is just one of many prophets and manifestations who are needed for the time but they are not ultimately more important than the other. If Moses were as you argue a Son of God in the sense it is applied to Jesus, the Word as it were applied to Jesus, why withhold this information to give the wrong impression that Jesus in this regard was different from them? It would have been a clarification and a benefit to the Christian community to know this. instead all it did was allow them to fall into the gross error you accuse Christians of following today (Ie thinking Jesus is actually God, Yahweh). (I have to repeat myself because I know you will bring up the point, but don’t say Jesus is God when you know exactly what I mean. Bahai make a formal distinction between manifestations and God)

The fact that Moses didn’t know the trinity doesn’t mean he didn’t know God and nor was the knowledge given to him misleading as to who God was. God is One and there is one God to whom we must worship. That cannot be said of New Testament if Bahai religion is true. If Bahai religion is true the documents of the New testament and indeed the movement Christ started was misguided from the start. I cannot believe that, though bahai religion requires it.

I also agree the apostles guided humanity into all truth with the Holy Spirit. There was no need of further revelation, especially revelation which calls into question what Jesus and his apostles taught. I think you have to admit that John did not believe Moses and Abraham to be part of the Logos, this is how you seek to explain it looking back on to his text. The problem is as I laid out before, if John did not intend what you meant, why did Jesus not reveal this important truth to him? The Apostles were given the spirit afterall, they should have known the Word has many forms and John in writing the gospel as he did sets us up for a false understanding from the very start.

Yes Ignatian, John didn’t believe Moses was part of the Logos until Baha’u’llah clarified.

In like manner, Moses didn’t believe the Messiah was part of a Trinitarian God, otherwise He would have said so Himself.

The ability of Christians to turn a blind eye to theology relating to Christianity when it comes to evaluating Baha’u’llah is telling

Baha’u’llah and Jesus both stated that a pure and sincere heart is required for right relationship with God. That is a basic foundation.

At the time of writing, John had every right to claim that Jesus was the most unique religious Figure in human history, and He was. Today we know that there is an underlying unity TOGETHER WITH an underlying uniqueness of each new Manifestation of God.

.

.

 

[Techno2000]

No wonder people have turned away from religion. It seems to be just endless theological assertions of who,is right and who is wrong when love and unity is the object of God and His religion.

It’s just a competition to see who can be number one. A disgraceful selfish competition .

Every religion just wants to egotistically assert that its religion and belief is number one & others are false.

That is not religion, nor faith but a sickness. Who cares who is number one? I don’t.

Religion is about unifying hearts, bringing love and peace to the world, ridding the world of poverty and crime and creating virtuous people.

I have no taste for arguing which s better or which is number one. All I’m interested in is there’s a world out there that needs us to be united and lead them out of hell.

What has happened to religion and religionists that all the focus is upon my God is superior to yours. It’s pathetic, egotistical and selfish.

Humanity needs people who will put the best interests of humanity first. The Muslims want to conquer the world, Christians say they possess monopoly on the truth and all else are false gods and prophets, the Jews, Hindus and Buddhists the same.

It’s as if there’s a huge prize for being number one. It’s a real turn off. No wonder people have abandoned religion in droves.

What would happen if we would just all accept each other’s prophet? If the Jews accepted Christ would that be evil? If the Christians accepted Muhammad what would be wrong with that? If we just all accepted each other’s religion we could have peace.

Yet supremists of all faiths insist that until their religion reigns supreme over all the earth they won’t be flexible. How regretful that religionists who say they stand for love and unity don’t give a damn about love and unity of humanity but just want their brand of religion to rule the world. That’s all they truly care about not humanity. That’s the anti Christ.

That’s all religion is about today. My religion must control the world and only my religion is the right one and all others are false. How Regrettable not to be able to see or even try to see the good in the others and work together as one undivided.

The competition between religions is no better than Apple vs Android or PlayStation vs Xbox one its so pathetic and at that level. Like barracking for a football team. Who will win the Religiousbowl the most coveted prize?

No one gives a damn about this competition except religionists. People have run away from religion because of what they perceive is an ignoble farce between faiths of people who aren’t truly religious at all. Truly religious people would want too much to come together for the betterment of humanity yet this is sadly not the case. It’s just an all out competition of who can be number one. And each religion uses its scriptures to try and win this competition of supremacy.

Meanwhile humanity suffers and because of religionist’s stubbornness to come together remains divided and on the brink of nuclear war.

I don’t care who follows what religion. Only that humanity isnt divided against itself for much longer as the world has enough very dangerous weapons to put a stop to this silly competition between religions by destroying half of it and then people will have no option but to unite for their survival and then realise that we are all one.

If that’s the only way for religions to overcome their stubbornness to unite then unfortunately it must happen.

In our minds it’s ’ he’s that’ or ’ she’s this’ or ’ they’re those ’ and so much rubbish enters our minds that is the real antiChrist that stops us from loving all religions and all faiths. That’s the real anti Christ that is supplanting the law of love with the ‘my religion is the only way’ argument and yours is false.

Peace will never happen unless people accept each other’s faiths. And I believe they will one day but maybe after 30-40 nuclear warheads have frightened us into it.

If religion does not unite and bring peace then it should be trashed completely because it has no use to humanity if it just causes division and disagreement and wars.

I’m tired of ‘otherness’ and this ‘us and them’ attitude prevalent in humanity. Let it just be us as one.

All I care about is the truth… and you should too…

Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the** truth** hears My voice.” Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them, "I find no guilt in Him.

John 18:38

 

[Techno2000]

Thank you dearly Martin.

I simply feel that today, Baha’u’llah gives me a deeper love than what I see from the Church and the body of Christians globally.

.

So Baha’is are… number 1# in the love department.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes Ignatian, John didn’t believe Moses was part of the Logos until Baha’u’llah clarified.

In like manner, Moses didn’t believe the Messiah was part of a Trinitarian God, otherwise He would have said so Himself.

The ability of Christians to turn a blind eye to theology relating to Christianity when it comes to evaluating Baha’u’llah is telling

Baha’u’llah and Jesus both stated that a pure and sincere heart is required for right relationship with God. That is a basic foundation.

At the time of writing, John had every right to claim that Jesus was the most unique religious Figure in human history, and He was. Today we know that there is an underlying unity TOGETHER WITH an underlying uniqueness of each new Manifestation of God.

.

.

We reject Bahai theology because it is in conflict with what the New testament says. In trying to say the Word was more than Jesus we have no reason to believe that, especially of flawed men like Abraham and Moses and especially of mythical figures like Krishna and of figures who didn’t care about God like Buddha.

But you saying John had every right to claim Jesus was unique is puzzling because it is our condemnation and it shows how much John didn’t know. Why would God not educate John that Jesus was no greater than the other prophets? Why would he allow John to write in a way so as to describe Jesus as God? Not a god, not a lesser entity but the eternal all powerful God.

I can only conclude that if Bahai religion is true each religion deceives it’s own followers because the next religion reveals some horrible truth that the initial religion mislead the original into following. If Christianity is true however the account of the New testament emphasis on Jesus makes sense, because he truly is God, truly is the only begotten son of God. There is none like him.

It is not our fault that we dismiss your prophet, it is the fault of Jesus for setting himself up and guiding the apostles into teaching so highly concerning himself. That would have dangerous implications for Bahai today right? How much as Ali Nuri possibly mislead you into the wrong beliefs? How will the next manifestation condemn Bahai beliefs as going astray? Your religion is a never ending cycle of failure of God and of man.

 

[TonyBS]

We reject Bahai theology because it is in conflict with what the New testament says. In trying to say the Word was more than Jesus we have no reason to believe that, especially of flawed men like Abraham and Moses and especially of mythical figures like Krishna and of figures who didn’t care about God like Buddha.

What is being said is not that the Word is more than Jesus. It is being said there is more to the Word and Jesus, that Jesus had to Say unto us, to which He now Has.

Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

What is being said is not that the Word is more than Jesus. It is being said there is more to the Word and Jesus, that Jesus had to Say unto us, to which He now Has.

Regards Tony

What I am saying is there is no basis for this belief in the New Testament. I see no practical reason why it should be omitted of Abraham and Moses figures the apostles knew and commented on and specifically compared to Christ as inferior to him. Forcing the Bahai view then of the Word including them and all your so called manifestations does damage to what the New Testament authors wanted us to accept, the utter uniqueness of Christ. Christ is not merely just another Moses, he is something more, something far more glorious.

For God/Christ in that specific manifestation to that, purposefully make Jesus seem greater than he actually is. For the reality is, according to the bahai, Jesus is good and unique but no more good or unique than all the other manifestations. He accomplished his purpose (whatever it was) but the same could be said of Muhammad and Moses. Servant wants to say the New Testament authors were justified in making Christ that important, how were they when it simply wasn’t true? When it would lead so many astray? Bahai consider us in error, the reason that error exists is because of how God revealed himself in Jesus.

 

[worldcitizen]

All I care about is the truth… and you should too…

Therefore Pilate said to Him, “So You are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say correctly that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the** truth** hears My voice.” Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews and said to them, "I find no guilt in Him.

John 18:38

Jesus came that humanity might be free. Free from wars, hatred and prejudice. That all men might become brothers. He didn’t come to establish His superiority over the world.

Now it s about supremacy and superiority and the brotherhood and love Jesus came to bring has been pushed aside for this mad race for religious supremacy.

Wherever I go and whoever I talk to the concern is not for humanity but that Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha reigns supreme a fanboy game nothing else. Jesus came to spread the Gospel of love not the gospel of ‘my belief is number one’ syndrome which infects religions today. Jesus would be very sad at seeing His Revelation being downgraded to fight for the trophy of the ReligiousBowl. He came to bring LOVE. To free us from prejudice nothing else. It’s making s mockery of Jesus sacrifice not to embrace and love all religions as He would want peace and love to reign in humanity not this childish competition between faiths for number one spot.

ALL people are brothers and sisters despite beliefs. There is only one God. This is the love that Christ taught. We need to all unite and bring love and hope and justice back to humanity.

 

[ffg]

Jesus came that humanity might be free. Free from wars, hatred and prejudice. That all men might become brothers. He didn’t come to establish His superiority over the world.

Now it s about supremacy and superiority and the brotherhood and love Jesus came to bring has been pushed aside for this mad race for religious supremacy.

Wherever I go and whoever I talk to the concern is not for humanity but that Jesus or Muhammad or Buddha reigns supreme a fanboy game nothing else. Jesus came to spread the Gospel of love not the gospel of ‘my belief is number one’ syndrome which infects religions today. Jesus would be very sad at seeing His Revelation being downgraded to fight for the trophy of the ReligiousBowl. He came to bring LOVE. To free us from prejudice nothing else. It’s making s mockery of Jesus sacrifice not to embrace and love all religions as He would want peace and love to reign in humanity not this childish competition between faiths for number one spot.

ALL people are brothers and sisters despite beliefs. There is only one God. This is the love that Christ taught. We need to all unite and bring love and hope and justice back to humanity.

Interesting.

I have a question, if you don’t mind -

Was this goal of Jesus successful? “Jesus came that humanity might be free. Free from wars, hatred and prejudice.”

Please explain.

Thank you and take care,

mike

 

[eddie_too]

i do not think reconciling ones self with another means rejecting the most important information and actions that the other person lived and provided.

i understand that a person can say they are reconciled with someone while simultaneously rejecting the most important aspects of the other. people confuse themselves and others with incorrect usage of words all of the time.

in general, reconciliation means bringing ones self in to complete agreement with the one with whom you are seeking to reconcile.

 

[MartinJordan]

Thank you dearly Martin.

I’m very much reconciled with Jesus. I feel the sacrifices that He went through to give me the gifts He offered.

I simply feel that today, Baha’u’llah gives me a deeper love than what I see from the Church and the body of Christians globally.

I cannot bring myself to say “I love you” to a Muslim while internally feeling that what they are is based on false (or even worse, satanic) teaching.

My life becomes a contradiction as a result of this, and I feel caged.

I thank Baha’u’llah for the love He has shown me.

.

So Jesus is not first in your life. That is materialism.

MJ

 

[eddie_too]

when should we consider humanity free? how many people can remain enslaved slave and allow us to still consider humanity free?

Jesus came to free individuals. since individuals make up humanity, sometimes people think Jesus came to establish a just, secular kingdom in this world. of course, these people are TOTALLY WRONG in thinking that.

as an aside, did bahaullah teach that there must be a one world government for the world to be united as he desired.? or did bahaullah allow for there being peace among all nations without a one world government, thus the world being united in peace?

 

[eddie_too]

why do some people believe it is best for human beings if they: 1) reject God’s Incarnation; and 2) reject the Triune Nature of God; and 3) reject the bodily resurrection of Jesus that resulted in His grave being empty: and 4) reject that the bodies of everyone are resurrected in the glorified realm; and 5) reject the promise of eternal life in Perfect Being; and 6) reject the means instituted by God to enable humans to experience this promise of eternal life, among many other things?

why would people go around trying to convince people that these teachings are not true while simultaneously teaching that they are reconciled to the ONE who brought us these beliefs?

 

[eddie_too]

why do some teach that it is an act of love to convince people that Jesus was wrong about the Triune God, wrong about His Incarnation, wrong about His Resurrection, wrong about the resurrection of all human beings, wrong about the promise of eternal life and wrong about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church Jesus established?