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Techno2000
Guest
So Bahaism is more like a social club than a Religion.
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Techno2000
Guest
Not so fast… then you became an…Hindu, Buddhist, Jew,and Muslim also… which is ridiculous to us.In case they use the stated example against us, please note we did become a Christian when we accepted Baha’u’llah
Regards Tony
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
If I can judge by one theme I notice in Bahai responses to Christian questions, it will be to ignore actual differences and emphasize where we agree which is on some moral questions, not on anything theological.
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worldcitizen
Guest
Baha’u’llah is from Persia right? Persia is Iran right?
A Christian website
defendproclaimthefaith.org/elam_letter_days.html
All from their site…
Elam is an ancient geographical location mentioned in the Bible. Today its location would be mainly in Iran with a small section in Iraq
Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.
"God is going to set His throne in Elam. This is an astonishing verse! This is the only nation other than Israel, where God states He is going to set His throne! "
(Christian website)
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Throne
Old Testament Noun kisse Greek
In prophetic literature, the prophets often use kisse to refer to the covenant God made with David,
One of the most important uses of kiss refers to God’s throne.
(Mounce expository dictionary of old and New Testament)
Here we have clear indications that God will establish His Covenant in Elam, Persia, Iran the birthplace of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
Elam is the ancient name for what today is Iran
So the Bible gives the year, the place and name of the Bab and Baha’u’llah and still people can’t see it!!!
No wonder Jesus makes this statement seven times: “He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches” (Revelation 2:7)
A Christian website
defendproclaimthefaith.org/elam_letter_days.html
All from their site…
Elam is an ancient geographical location mentioned in the Bible. Today its location would be mainly in Iran with a small section in Iraq
Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.
"God is going to set His throne in Elam. This is an astonishing verse! This is the only nation other than Israel, where God states He is going to set His throne! "
(Christian website)
.--------------------------------------------------------------
Throne
Old Testament Noun kisse Greek
In prophetic literature, the prophets often use kisse to refer to the covenant God made with David,
One of the most important uses of kiss refers to God’s throne.
(Mounce expository dictionary of old and New Testament)
Here we have clear indications that God will establish His Covenant in Elam, Persia, Iran the birthplace of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
Elam is the ancient name for what today is Iran
So the Bible gives the year, the place and name of the Bab and Baha’u’llah and still people can’t see it!!!
No wonder Jesus makes this statement seven times: “He who has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches” (Revelation 2:7)
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TonyBS
Guest
One fold under One Shepherd should not be a ridiculous concept.
God Bless and Regards Tony
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TonyBS
Guest
Ha ha ha - Not possible when we show the Sun and they would still call it the moon
The proofs must be considered, What has God Wrought!
Regards Tony
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Techno2000
Guest
If I add…lemon,coke, peach and root beer… to my Chocolate milk… is it still Chocolate milk ?
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Then the claims made attributing all of the good things in the modern world to Ali Nuri are unable to be demonstrated. It might be an article of faith but how will it convince others if you are unable to other reasons for that faith? I attribute the success of the modern world to other sources than an obscure like Ali Nuri. Mainly the context of western development from the reformation to the modern day. I suppose that would make too much sense though.Ha ha ha - Not possible when we show the Sun and they would still call it the moon
The proofs must be considered, What has God Wrought!
Regards Tony
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TonyBS
Guest
Man would make a drink like that.
Gods would be a mixture of different cows to make Chocolate Milk.
Regards Tony
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worldcitizen
Guest
Here’s one prophecy written by Shoghi Effendi referring to the Internet in the 1950’s.
A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity. (World Order of Baha’u’llah)
Please keep asking for more as we haven’t touched the tip of the iceberg yet.
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TonyBS
Guest
Tell me how you would attribute any Good in the World to anything but Jesus the Christ.
Regards Tony
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worldcitizen
Guest
Yes it’s what we have in common that will unite us. You believe in God and so do we so we can be united. You believe in Jesus and so do we so we can be united. There are so, so so, many points of unity where we can turn to instead of looking for differences.
To be loving is to allow each other to be different to have diversity of thought and still accept each other and embrace each other as brothers.
We can and do work together with Catholics for a better humanity. It doesn’t matter if Catholics don’t become Baha’is as that’s a personal issue between them and God.
What matters is we join together and try and bring some hope and love, peace and unity to our world.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I compare and contrast the world of the time of Jesus too his teaching. I look at the spread and influence of Christianity as it gradually grew in society. Do i attribute something in india, separated by a long distance that happened sometime after Christ then directly too him? No. But do I attribute the outlawing of crucifixion in the Roman empire to Christendom? Yes. Do I attribute some of the great works of literature throughout the centuries, Dante’s inferno, Paradise Lost to Christianity? Yes. Even works not explicitly Christian like that of Shakesphere I attribute partly to the influence of a Christian culture within Britain. You can see the influence of Christianity in the abolitionists, in the missionary efforts throughout the centuries. Saint Basil the great in the fourth century opened hospitals. Christians took in infants who were abandoned and raised them up as Christians. The outlawing of gladiatorial games as entertainment were chiefly opposed by Christianity.
Do I attribute every single good thing the world directly to Christendom? No, but it would be hard to deny the influence of Christendom in the western world throughout the centuries.
The influence of Bahai on the other hand, attributing every single modern innovation to Ali Nuri’s influence, every single moral effort to him. As if he were the soul cause for the change in the world, that cannot be demonstrated however. I gave the example earlier, was it due to Ali Nuri’s profound 16 year old mind that the British decided to abolish Slavery? I think not.
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worldcitizen
Guest
I explained about the slavery and that Baha’u’llah was the first Manifestation to abolish it and that it had not been abolished in many places while Baha’u’llah was a Manifestation and that by making it a law according to His Words they had an effect universally in wiping it out not just in writing but in practice.
The Bahai Prayer that freed slaves.
bahaiteachings.org/the-bahai-prayer-that-freed-the-slaves
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TonyBS
Guest
The regenerative power and the Influence of the Holy Spirit needs to be discussed then
XXXVI: Know thou that when the Son of Man…
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him”. reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-36.html
Regards Tony
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Those first two points can be contested from a bahai point of view because as Christians if Bahai religion is correct we don’t believe in the same God. We believe the Holy Spirit and the Son to be God with the Father, not in the sense you apply the term “god” to them, but in the sense they are “the” “one” “God.” The Father Son and Holy spirit are not for us what tehy are for you and hence in worshipping the Son in the way we do we are actually violating the first commandment if the Bahai religion is true because we are worshipping that which is fundamentally not the One God. This is proven by the Bahai division between manifestation and God. You make a clear distinction and laugh at our idea of the incarnation as if God would take to himself flesh and dwell among us (servant at any rate mocks us for this belief, which is his right). You believe in a God who is seperate from the world, the only way he talks to us is through his manifestations who are mirrors of him, not him himself, right? Or is Ali Nuri the eternal transcendent Creator who is beyond the universe incarnated for us?
So we don’t actually agree on the first two points, hence our division is set up from the get go. We disagree on the most basic level. What unity is there then? A mere political unity? In that case it would be no different from a secular nation state, wherein there are groups of individuals divided according to their creeds. It’s not a unity that actually matters, it’s not a spiritual unity.
I will ask my question again, what do Bahai do with the individuals like myself who mark the clear division between Bahai and Christianity? Do you continue to say we are really united despite my protests? Do I have a choice as to whether or not I am actually united with you or is it the Bahai who determine exclusively who is unified and who is not?
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TonyBS
Guest
Yes your Choice IgnatianPhilo, may Jesus the Christ bless that choice.
Regards Tony
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Irrelevant. I gave what I think are clear examples of Christian influence. You cannot give clear examples of direct Bahai influence in the establishment of anything. Bahai point to the UN, can they demonstrate their guilt in the creation of that corrupt body? I would like to see how we arrive from Ali Nuri directly to the idea of the UN. Did the people who formed the UN have in mind the words of an obscure Persian? Can you show that they did? Or is it more likely we can attribute it to the political feelings of the time?
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worldcitizen
Guest
Ignatian
If it wasn’t for Baha’u’llah Christ would not have appeared and the Bible would NOT have been revealed and neither would Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad or the Bab have appeared or Their Scriptures been revealed.
That’s how great this Revelation is. Christ came because of Baha’u’llah, to prophesy about Him and prepare the world for Him.
This statement calls to mind several passages from the writings of Bahá’u’lláh which Shoghi Effendi quotes in “God Passes By”, page 99:
“In this most mighty Revelation,” He moreover states, “all the Dispensations of the past have attained their highest, their final consummation.” And again: “None among the Manifestations of old, except to a prescribed degree, hath ever completely apprehended the nature of this Revelation.” Referring to His [Bahá’u’lláh’s] own station He declares: "But for Him no Divine Messenger would have been invested with the Robe of Prophethood, nor would any of the sacred Scriptures have been revealed."
It’s staggering but people will all wake up. Humanity has entered a new cycle. The Adamic cycle has ended and the Bahai cycle of 500,000 years has begun. You cannot fathom it that you are surrounded by everything good you have has come from Baha’u’llah. Your mind can’t appreciate what’s happened.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
So let me get this straight. You encourage us to be unified. you want us to be all one big happy family and agree to a Bahai solution to the mismanagement of the world and yet you wish Christ will bless my choice regarding the fundamental division between Bahai and Christianity?
That would be like me asking Jesus to bless Satan in causing someone to become an atheist. It goes against what Christ wants and I assume as Bahai you believe Jesus wants CHrsitians and Bahais to be unified? Why on earth would you wish him to bless my choice in this regard?
This is the sort of vacillation I see in Bahai, the utter complete lack of conviction regarding anything they believe. You would rather bless someone in error than correct them. Why not rather say “I will pray that Christ will guide you to the correct choice”?
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