Comparative Religion and General Faith Discussion

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ffg said:
Hi Tony,

My thoughts:

Essentially, Jesus isn’t going to come before he gives you , me, all, time to repent.

Don’t get caught up with unstable thoughts or principles (Jesus being called something other than Jesus or The Christ would qualify here).

What does this mean for us? That thief is physical death.

So, I find my answer ‘yes’ to accommodate the stability called for in the Bible. Jesus would not come under hidden terminology not found in the source of our knowledge of Jesus, or before we have time to repent.

He is patient

Thanks for asking!

Take care,

Mike
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Dear Mike - I like your thoughts and I would like to reply to them.

I would consider that from the time Christ was raised from the Dead, it has been many years since, we then all have our life to be prepared, how much time do we want 😉

You may have to consider that My Love for Christ is not unstable but cemented upon my Soul for eternity. No one can or will take that Love from me as I would suggest they can not from you. I would say that is firm.

Physical Death is the First death mentioned in Scriptures. the death we are to avoid is the 2nd Death and that is of the spirit. Big subject of course! If you are ready their is no thief in any case.

Thus let us always Love God and ask for His Wisdom and not ours 😊

I have found I have none at all, one has to turn to the source.

God bless and regards Tony
 
Albert Einstein said “Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”

This reminds me of bahaism and the manifestations of God.
 
“Eddie too” mentioned above in post #697 the following…
  1. Baha’u’llah taught that our individuality ceases when we get to heaven.
  2. Baha’u’llah taught that Jesus did not raise His physical body from the grave and leave the tomb empty.
  3. Baha’u’llah taught that Jesus was not conceived of the Holy Spirit but was conceived like any man is conceived.
I’m responding to these statements from Baha’i sources:
  1. Identity of the soul continues after death: Abdul-Baha has indicated the following:
As the spirit of man after putting off this material form has an everlasting life, certainly any existing being is capable of making progress; therefore it is permitted to ask for advancement, forgiveness, mercy, beneficence, and blessings for a man after his death, because existence is capable of progression. **That is why in the prayers of Bahá’u’lláh forgiveness and remission of sins are asked for those who have died. **Moreover, as people in this world are in need of God, they will also need Him in the other world.
Code: 
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 329)
  1. Baha’is believe the resurrection of Jesus was spiritual…not physical or literal…this is true:
And as it has become evident that Christ came from the spiritual heaven of the Divine Kingdom, therefore, His disappearance under the earth for three days has an inner signification and is not an outward fact. In the same way, His resurrection from the interior of the earth is also symbolical; it is a spiritual and divine fact, and not material; and likewise His ascension to heaven is a spiritual and not material ascension.
Code: 
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 103)
  1. The virgin birth of Jesus:
"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the ‘Kitáb-i-Íqán’ (Book of Certitude) p. 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however, indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also 'Abdu’l-Bahá in the ‘Some 490 Answered Questions’, Chap. XII, p.73, explicitly states that ‘Christ found existence through the Spirit of God’ which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."

(From a letter dated October 14, 1945 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 489)
 
worldcitizen said:
So you believe your judgement is infallible and free from error that you are incapable of erring? That would make you equal to Jesus.
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Having the free will to choose between whats truth and what is false does not make us equal to Jesus
 
JimmyDFG said:
How is the second coming going to be like a thief in the night? The key element of Jesus’ comparison is that no one will know when He will return. Just as a thief catches a household by surprise, Jesus will catch the unbelieving world by surprise when He returns in judgment. People will be “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” just as if they have all the time in the world. But then, before they know it, Judgment Day will be upon them. Paul puts it this way: “While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape”

The bab and baha’u’llah entrance into this world does NOT compare to Great Tribulation
and the Parousia.
Description …

"Catholic Christians have always believed that Jesus Christ would come back to close the current period of human history in earth. The time when Jesus will return is given many names: the Day of the Lord, the Parousia, the end time, and the Second Coming of Christ.

The Bible describes the events of Jesus’ return in apocalyptic images.

Mk 13:26-27
And then they will see ‘the Son of Man coming in the clouds’ with great power and glory, and then he will send out the angels and gather (his) elect from the four winds, from the end of the earth to the end of the sky.
Mt 16:27
For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
Acts 1:11
They (two men dressed in white) said, “Men of Galilee, why are you standing there looking at the sky? This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven will return in the same way as you have seen him going into heaven.”
1 Thess 4:16-18
For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words.
The parousia will be unmistakable because it will be accompanied by unprecedented signs."

To think bab or baha’u’llah as Jesus is ludicrous, he has given us warnings of False Christs to come.
Jesus doesn’t change from person to person and to cause confusion. His second coming will be Jesus himself. Not Jesus as someone else… God is not deceitful nor would he mislead his people
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Exactly what I’m saying. He has caught you by surprise and off guard and come and gone and still you are saying 'When shall these things be"? Like the Jews aforetime!! Judgement Day is upon you and you know it not!!

I have seen Him coming in the clouds with angels and great glory! But I took enough oil (humility and open mindedness) in my lamp so I wouldn’t miss him but you are relying on the traditions of men and so missed Him completely. But you can still see Him come in the clouds if you can cleanse you soul of all preconceived ideas and humbly beseech God to guide you.

To accept Jesus first coming and reject His second coming is to reject Him altogether as you cannot both accept and reject Jesus. If one truly worships Jesus and not their own ideas then they will see the truth for knowledge and preconceived ideas, like the Jews blinded them from the Glory of Jesus. They reasoned this and reasoned that and 2016 years later still reason!!! And the very exact same mistakes are being repeated here.

Christ has come in His great Glory with angels in the clouds and He expects all His faithful servants to embrace His New Name.
 
arthra said:
  1. The virgin birth of Jesus:
"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the ‘Kitáb-i-Íqán’ (Book of Certitude) p. 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however, indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also 'Abdu’l-Bahá in the ‘Some 490 Answered Questions’, Chap. XII, p.73, explicitly states that ‘Christ found existence through the Spirit of God’ which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."

(From a letter dated October 14, 1945 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)
Code: 
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 489)
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Arthra, sorry for cutting off the rest of your post, but although you say Bahai believe although indirectly same as the Virgin Birth like the Catholic church. Then how can Bahaism be the fulfillment of Catholicism when things like these are “indirect”?

MJ
 
ffg said:
When my car’s gas tank is full, there isn’t more that fits, and if I try, I just make a mess.

My gas tank doesn’t have to be full to run the car, but a full tank can take me the furthest I can go.

(the car parable of the reality that if there is truth, it is one, and no more)
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Like that one, it can be used both ways though, as it depends what you filled your car with 😉

If you filled the diesel car with petrol or water, you will also have a big mess 👍

Now if we are full of the right fuel, then we may indeed have the means to go far. But if we have filled it with the wrong fuel we will not get far.

God bless and may we all fill our cars with the right fuel and always keep them full 😃

Regards Tony
 
worldcitizen said:
Exactly what I’m saying. He has caught you by surprise and off guard and come and gone and still you are saying 'When shall these things be"? Like the Jews aforetime!! Judgement Day is upon you and you know it not!!

I have seen Him coming in the clouds with angels and great glory! But I took enough oil (humility and open mindedness) in my lamp so I wouldn’t miss him but you are relying on the traditions of men and so missed Him completely. But you can still see Him come in the clouds if you can cleanse you soul of all preconceived ideas and humbly beseech God to guide you.

To accept Jesus first coming and reject His second coming is to reject Him altogether as you cannot both accept and reject Jesus. If one truly worships Jesus and not their own ideas then they will see the truth for knowledge and preconceived ideas, like the Jews blinded them from the Glory of Jesus. They reasoned this and reasoned that and 2016 years later still reason!!! And the very exact same mistakes are being repeated here.

Christ has come in His great Glory with angels in the clouds and He expects all His faithful servants to embrace His New Name.
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The parables of Jesus can be understood without much difficulty. But can be dangerous in the mans of mere men who can be wolves in sheep’s clothing.
 
worldcitizen said:
Christ has come in His great Glory with angels in the clouds and He expects all His faithful servants to embrace His New Name.
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David, you the Baha’i keep digging yourselfs deeper and deeper into a hole more the you all talk.
 
Techno2000 said:
Is Bab being the lamb of God who takes away the sins of world, an official Baha’i teaching or Just your understanding ?
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Of course it’s an official Bahai teaching. The Bab has the same authority Christ did and the same stations.
 
IgnatianPhilo said:
Station of pure abstraction and station of essential unity are alien to Christianity and the New testament. Why refer to them?
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I refer to them because they are Biblical concepts. When the Bible is viewed as a whole, both Jesus and Moses had Divine and human aspects. This gives them unity. When the Bible is viewed as a whole, it is clear that Jesus Revelation was greater than Moses, so this is distinction.

Why do you get confused when the concept is defined using words not used in the Bible?
It is a very shallow understanding of the Bible if you are looking for the “exact same words”?

Get deeper Ignatius…🙂
That from the beginning, Christians, due to a lack of revelation, necessary revelation, we attributed to Christ things not belonging to Christ. Namely Divinity, which belongs to God alone. That of course is in the New testament. Throwing on a slob of Bahai theology on to the text does not do away with centuries of reading by the Church and what the text itself actually says.
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You misunderstand Ignatian.

The Revelation was there, and with sincere effort, it has been interpreted, attributing to Christ this and that. But what has been neglected is that this interpretation has been deemed “authoritative”

That’s the error.

The Books were sealed Ignatius, no one has authority to attribute anything unto Christ without the Father’s explicit and direct approval.
When you say John had the same concept as you have, a distinction in station only I do not think you can make the argument from the Gospel authors. Again, only Jesus is presented in such a high manner. When another “manifestation” is spoken of in the Gospel it is when Jesus says “Before Abraham was, I am.” This is a meaningless statement in Bahai since Abraham always was, he is an eternal entity who never began to exist and never ceased to exist. Who is Jesus trying to fool here if Jesus was a crypto Bahai? He certainty fooled the Jews who threw stones at him and he certainty fooled the Christians who worshipped him.
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Jesus is referring to His Divine station being eternal. He is also talking to the Pharisees who always knew the human Abraham.

The Divine Jesus is always from heaven and pre-existed the human Abraham. It makes perfect sense.

You see, for the first time in history, Jesus focused PREDOMINANTLY on the Divine aspect of Himself as a Manifestation of God.
As far as Jesus being a servant being a refutation of my view I don’t know how Jesus serving mankind is somehow a rebuff. Yes Jesus served, but did he ever make God angry at him? One could say on the cross (as many Roman Catholics and Protestants do) but that was not for his sins rather that was for ours. Moses while a servant of God, when first encountering God didn’t listen to God and the anger of God burned against him (Exodus 4:14). In fact, for such a mirror of God Moses basically tells God to go find another messenger, that’s why God got angry with him. Jesus was a perfect servant, not only to man but to God also. Suffering unjustly and paying a price he did not have to pay. There is a marked difference between the two. Moses was great but he was flawed.
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How is it a sin for Moses to say that He is not worthy of being God’s Messenger? He says His speech is not worthy of revealing God’s Word. It’s a reflection of His humility before God, not a reflection of His pride before God…
I think if you ask a Jew the same question you won’t get a “Moses was disobedient to God” response…

.
 
Servant19 said:
I refer to them because they are Biblical concepts. When the Bible is viewed as a whole, both Jesus and Moses had Divine and human aspects. This gives them unity. When the Bible is viewed as a whole, it is clear that Jesus Revelation was greater than Moses, so this is distinction.

Why do you get confused when the concept is defined using words not used in the Bible?
It is a very shallow understanding of the Bible if you are looking for the “exact same words”?

Get deeper Ignatius…🙂

You misunderstand Ignatian.

The Revelation was there, and with sincere effort, it has been interpreted, attributing to Christ this and that. But what has been neglected is that this interpretation has been deemed “authoritative”

That’s the error.

The Books were sealed Ignatius, no one has authority to attribute anything unto Christ without the Father’s explicit and direct approval.

Jesus is referring to His Divine station being eternal. He is also talking to the Pharisees who always knew the human Abraham.

The Divine Jesus is always from heaven and pre-existed the human Abraham. It makes perfect sense.

You see, for the first time in history, Jesus focused PREDOMINANTLY on the Divine aspect of Himself as a Manifestation of God.

How is it a sin for Moses to say that He is not worthy of being God’s Messenger? He says His speech is not worthy of revealing God’s Word. It’s a reflection of His humility before God, not a reflection of His pride before God…
I think if you ask a Jew the same question you won’t get a “Moses was disobedient to God” response…

.
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