Comparing and contrasting Mormon/Catholic views on the Sacrament/Eucharist

[catholic-rcia]

Well, not in this life. I didn’t say we can comprehend all mysteries in this life. But ultimately all truth is knowable.

There is a difference between gifted knowledge and knowledge that is taken
One lives in humility and truth while the other lives in pride and deception

Zerinus, please read these two passages: then if you will please answer the question at the end. I believe it has everything to do with this posting about Eucharist. it may help.

Genisis 1:16. The LORD God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.”

Geneis 3: 1-7
Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the animals that the LORD God had made. The serpent asked the woman, “Did God really tell you not to eat from any of the trees in the garden?”
The woman answered the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden; it is only about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said, ‘You shall not eat it or even touch it, lest you die.’”
But the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die!
No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad.”

Knowing what you know who would you choose to listen to here? Just an a or b answer will be enough.

a. God
b serpent

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 1 of 2

. . . . .That is not correct. We do believe in mysteries; but we believe that there are no mysteries that are inherently unknowable. All truth is ultimately knowable. There is no such thing as an unknowable truth.

Indeed, mysteries have been revealed. However, I find no Scripture that says all the mysteries of God have been revealed, or even that all can be “knowable” at this point.

Also, your statements seem to contradict the beliefs of your Mormon brethren (emphasis is mine):

What Mormons Believe About Jesus Christ
While no one of us can comprehend how and in what manner one person can take upon himself the effects of the sins of another — or, even more mysteriously, the sins of all men and women — we accept and glory in the transcendent reality that Christ remits our sins through His suffering.
Link: lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/what-mormons-believe-about-jesus-christ

Anything is a mystery as long as you don’t know it. Once you know it, it ceases to be a mystery. I don’t know how to make angel cakes, so it is a mystery. But if somebody taught me, then it would stop being a mystery. That is the biblical definition of mystery, and it is also the Mormon one. Try this link for references.

Zerinus,

Saying, “Once you know it, it ceases to be a mystery,” doesn’t prove that all Mysteries of God are “knowable” at this point.

1. Please cite and quote the passages of Scripture that support the definition of “mystery,” that you claim is “Biblical.”

**2. **Please cite and quote your source for the Mormon definition of “mystery.”

… . . . . .As a rememberance: “this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me” (1 Corinthians 11:25). How much plainer can it get? If you still don’t understand it, then I must conclude that you don’t want to understand it.

Zerinus, you take “remembrance” literally; but dismiss John Chapter 6, in which Christ clearly states, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you” (v53); and “For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.” (v55).

John 6 (RSV-CE)
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

48 I am the bread of life.

49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.

58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper’na-um.

Notice Christ did not say, “unless you eat bread and wine in remembrance of me, you have no life in you.” Christ said, ". . . .Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. . . ."

Though I am not Catholic, I believe the Sacrament of the Eucharist is both remembrance and consumption of the Body and Blood of Christ.

You’ve explained how Mormons celebrate the “remembrance” of Christ’s Sacrifice.

**3. **How does one in Mormonism consume the flesh and blood of Christ?

Continued Next Post—

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 2 of 2

As regards the response of the congregation, they sit reverently and quietly while the sacrament is being administered. And of course that is how it was done in the scriptures. On the night that the Sacrament was instituted by Christ, they sat at table with Him, He passed down the bread for them to eat, and then the wine to drink. There was nothing else done. . . .

Well, He did a lot more than just pass around bread and wine. He said "Take this and eat, this is my body which will be given for you… Take this, all of you, and drink from it, this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the New and Everlasting Covenant… ". The Catholic priest, standing in the place of Christ, repeats the words of Jesus, in other words, the substance of the elements are changed by the words of God, not the words of the priest.

Zerinus, to say, “There was nothing else done,” is to deny Holy Scripture.

John Chapter 6 clearly states that more is accomplished in the Lord’s Supper, than “remembrance,” alone:

John 6 (RSV-CE)
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

48 I am the bread of life.

49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.

58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper’na-um.

In verses 47-59, Christ clearly states that we who consume His Body and Blood will abide in Christ and He in us; we will not die; but be raised up at the last day; and have eternal life.

4. So, how can you say that nothing else is done?

So what you are saying then is axactly what I have heard before. There is nothing about God that is beyond the human capacity to understand fully. It’s like learning how to bake a cake. Once someone shows you, it is no longer a mystery. This tells me more about your concept of God, than anything else. Good luck with that. The God I believe in is eternally beyond my human capacity to understand. I can only know what has been revealed, and then, I cannot grasp it in its entirety. If I could, I would be equal to God. You diminish Him and dishoner Him with this position

Steve, I agree wholeheartedly.

Job explained this very well:

Job 11:
7 "Can you find out the deep things of God? Can you find out the limit of the Almighty?
8 It is higher than heaven – what can you do? Deeper than Sheol – what can you know?
9 Its measure is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea.

**5. ** Zerinus, does the Mormon belief that God is an exalted man contribute to your statement, “There is nothing about God that is beyond the human capacity to understand fully?”

6. Do you see God as an equal?

JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844:
“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.”

JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844:
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret.”

It seems that part of the difficulty in attempting to contrast views between Mormons and Catholics, regarding the Sacrament of the Eucharist, may be due to the fact that Mormons claim to worship a “different Christ.”

LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley, June 4, 1998:
“The traditional Christ of who they speak in not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak had been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. . . . ”(Church News, June, 20 1998, p. 7.)

LDS Church’s 147th General Conference, General Authority Bernard P. Brockbank:
“…It is true that many of the Christian churches worship A DIFFERENT JESUS CHRIST than is worshiped by the Mormons…” (“The Ensign,” May 1977, p. 26.)

Specifically, where does scripture (the Bible) instruct you to use water instead of wine, or to use anything available if bread and water are not available. Thanks and I look forward to the biblical references that prove your position.

7. Zerinus, I would like this questioned answered also.

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH
Specifically, where does scripture (the Bible) instruct you to use water instead of wine, or to use anything available if bread and water are not available. Thanks and I look forward to the biblical references that prove your position.

It doesn’t. That comes from modern revelation. Mormonism is a new dispensation of the gospel. It is a new revelation from God. It contains many doctrines which are new and not found in the Bible. But it is not contradicted by the Bible either. The Catholic Church claims that the Bible is the only revelation, so I ask you to prove your beliefs and practices from the Bible. Mormonism believes in the Bible plus additional revelation. Our doctrines are derived from those revelations, so I use them to tell you what we believe in.

Thank you. I didn’t think you had any scriptural evidence for your practices. The BoM and D&C mean nothing to me so I really could care less what they say. I will accept that you believe what you believe because of them, but as far as a credible argument that may influence me, sorry. I thought we would use the Bible because it is common ground, but apparently you have no argument to make on that basis.
I’m not sure there is really anywhere to go from here. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree which is fine with me.

 

[SteveVH]

It is difficult to discuss this with Mormons because, to the Mormons, the “New and Everlasting Covenant” is polygamy.

Wow! I never cease to be amazed. Thanks for the link. It is truly incredible.

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

It doesn’t. That comes from modern revelation. Mormonism is a new dispensation of the gospel. It is a new revelation from God. It contains many doctrines which are new and not found in the Bible. But it is not contradicted by the Bible either. The Catholic Church claims that the Bible is the only revelation, so I ask you to prove your beliefs and practices from the Bible. Mormonism believes in the Bible plus additional revelation. Our doctrines are derived from those revelations, so I use them to tell you what we believe in.

And of course it is false that the Catholic Church claims that the Bible is the only revelation. Unless you want to cite your source?

 

[zerinus]

Thank you. I didn’t think you had any scriptural evidence for your practices. The BoM and D&C mean nothing to me so I really could care less what they say. I will accept that you believe what you believe because of them, but as far as a credible argument that may influence me, sorry. I thought we would use the Bible because it is common ground, but apparently you have no argument to make on that basis.
I’m not sure there is really anywhere to go from here. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree which is fine with me.

Can you show me a verse in the Bible which says that something other than bread and wine cannot be use?

 

[CatholicGuyNY]

Can you show me a verse in the Bible which says that something other than bread and wine cannot be use?

This from the person claiming that they do what was done in the scriptures, without “additions”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Jesus never said you couldn’t use something other than water for baptism. A font filled with lime jello in a stake center is an awesome idea, if you ask me. Followed up with a sacrament of graham cracker bears and juicy boxes.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Never cared for Lime jello myself. Now if you’d agree to switch that to cherry or strawberry…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Never cared for Lime jello myself. Now if you’d agree to switch that to cherry or strawberry…

duh MelanieAnne, It has to be lime, because that is what goes with the grated carrots that are suspended in the jello.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I think I’ll stick with Holy Water! But if your local Stake Center wants to use Lime Jello, hey, they have their free agency!

 

[SirThomasMore]

Can you show me a verse in the Bible which says that something other than bread and wine cannot be use?

What a silly question. You want us to show a negative. It is not enough that Jesus said, with the bread and wine, to “DO THIS”.

You are like some of my clients who, when caught going 65 in a 25 says, “sure, I( saw the 25 mph speed limit sign, but the sign did NOT say I could not go 65”

 

[SteveVH]

Can you show me a verse in the Bible which says that something other than bread and wine cannot be use?

Can you show me something in scripture that says that Moses didn’t have two heads?
Give me a break.

I should have read the subsequent threads before responding. I’m going with the lime jello as well.

 

[Anna_Scott]

zerinus:
Zerinus,

I look forward to your answers to the 7 questions in my posts 81 & 82.

Anna

 

[SteveVH]

Zerinus,

I look forward to your answers to the 7 questions in my posts 81 & 82.

Anna

Me too.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think I’ll stick with Holy Water!

Good choice.

 

[zerinus]

Can you show me something in scripture that says that Moses didn’t have two heads?
Give me a break.

I should have read the subsequent threads before responding. I’m going with the lime jello as well.

We believe that the early Christianity became Apostate, and Mormonism is a Restoration of God’s true Church. You are free to disbelieve it, but that doesn’t make it untrue. Lots of people didn’t believe in Jesus either (and still don’t), but that doesn’t stop Him from being the Son of God. I believe that Mormonism is true, but you don’t. I suppose we will just have to wait for judgment day to see who is right and who is wrong. I don’t mind the wait.

 

[scipio337]

We believe that the early Christianity became Apostate, and Mormonism is a Restoration of God’s true Church. You are free to disbelieve it, but that doesn’t make it untrue. Lots of people didn’t believe in Jesus either (and still don’t), but that doesn’t stop Him from being the Son of God. I believe that Mormonism is true, but you don’t. I suppose we will just have to wait for judgment day to see who is right and who is wrong. I don’t mind the wait.

You can believe it is true, but that doesn’t make it true. I’ve consistently asked for historical proof of the “Great Apostacy”, or even a bronze age, pre Columbian civilization in North America.

There is virtually no proof of that, in either case, and the historical consensus is contrary to whay you believe.

You are free to believe it, but that doesn’t make it true.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Still waiting for Zerinus to answer the 7 questions in Anna’s posts 81 & 82.

Are we to interpret silence as inability? Or ?