Comparing holiness

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I cannot think of any drawbacks of following reason. Or how it can be double edged sword?
 
I can reason that Catholic teaching is wrong and I can choose reason over Faith. I can come up with perfectly “reasonable” arguments for both. Many people do.
 
After reading through your responses a second time, you did indeed mention her sin. I don’t think I agree with your assessment of manipulation. In my view, it is slightly unfair to tell a woman you don’t just want sex from her or give her hope of a committed relationship every time she wants to stop talking to you. He knows darn well that is what she truly wants. She probably believed him and continued to sleep with him because she eventually thought he would ask her out. It probably shocked her when he asked out another woman in her face, that is confirming to her he’s a complete liar. He is very selfish too.
He may not have power over her like authority bit that is still a manipulative. I think you have black and white views on fornicators. Your views of what manipulation is or can be is rather narrow.
You don’t have to have power over someone to manipulate them.
You haven’t heard of lovers who threaten to kill themselves if you try to end it with them?
You haven’t heard of people promising to leave their wife to their mistress?
The mistress is still being played even though she is very much in the wrong.
I don’t think your perspective is truly objective either. It seems like since they weren’t officially together, she has no right to feel any sort of way towards his behavior.

I would expect more understanding, compassion, and charity on a Catholic website.

Not opportunities for people to sit on a high horse.
 
You keep adding information quite frequently. You made it very clear that she was using him. I did use sin previously, but not in the quote you quoted. In that one I only mentioned that they were using each other.

It takes two to tango. It is clear that both had roles to play and both were using each other as ends to their own means. You claim that he “manipulated” her into having sex to make her feel good. But on the same hand, she hoped he’d be her boyfriend if she had sex. She’s just as manipulative. That’s not a narrow view of manipulation. That’s seeing that both sides were using each other for an agenda, neither more right than the other.

You came here it seems, wanting an exact answer. You aren’t getting it.

Don’t get mad and call that lack of “understanding, compassion and charity” This is a Catholic website with Catholic views. Of course, we are going to see the inherent sinfulness and approach it from a Catholic perspective. Plenty of people here have added scientific and secular viewpoints on the matter, too.

You seem WAY too close to this situation with your friend. You need to step back and not be so emotionally entrenched in your friend’s life. It seems like perhaps she suffers from codependence and is drawing you in.

That’s not healthy.
 
I think this reveals something very clearly, and what it reveals is what God intended sex to be. He didn’t intend for it to be a physical thing between two people who have no other connection with one another, or between two people who are married to other people or even between two people who love each other but don’t respect one another enough to remain chaste until they are united in the bonds of matrimony. In fact, He clearly tells us that all of those things are sinful.

Sex was created for marriage. It is a gift meant to join two people into one in an emotional and physical entanglement to bring them closer together as a couple and to produce “fruit” of that love, one of the “fruits” is in the form of having children, which can be said to be a living sign of the love between spouses. So, anything that takes away from how the act is done, or in the manner in which it is done, thereby perverts its purpose and commits sin. So, anything that detracts from its purpose is using it in a way that goes against what it was designed for, meaning that it is going against God’s will for how it is to be used. These purposes also lend to why rape, masturbation, homosexual sex, and contraception are immoral and sinful. What you are describing, “rational morality” is neither rational nor moral.

All of your scenarios involve fornication. Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Accusing someone of being petty because they are still hurting after being betrayed by their spouse or that it is “above and beyond” to forgive your spouse (who is still your spouse in the eyes of God, regardless of the divorce papers and fake new marriage papers tucked away in the filing cabinet), is irrational.
 
I think he manipulated her. I don’t think I’ve found anymore insight than I need. It is a little wrong in my opinion to tell someone so they don’t stop sleeping with you that there is a possibility of a relationship. Dishonest and manipulative to me. You don’t seem to see his behavior as manipulative since you used quotes but apparently her behavior is.
He is not the one crying to me. If he were, I’d see things differently.
It is not wise to sleep with a man in hopes they will love you nor is it right to tell a girl you could see a future with her if you couldn’t do you could keep sleeping with her.
Perhaps the reason I take her side more. Once he asked another girl out, all she did was get upset and whine. She never told him anything really other than it is best it ends. She didn’t start professing her feelings or find anyway to sabotage his love life. I think it was wrong for him to act like he liked her anytime she was ready to leave her alone or if another man professed interest in her.
I think she actually started to like him, he never did.
I’ll agree to disagree.
I’ll be a good friend and comfort her.
 
Why are you not reading what I said?

They were BOTH using each other.

They were BOTH manipulating each other.

They were BOTH operating with the idea that they could get what they wanted by using the other. For him, it was getting sex, for her it was getting an exclusive relationship.

His manipulation worked, hers did not. That’s the only difference.

It takes two to tango.

I think you are trying to empathize with your friend and are blind to her role and make excuses for her.

Comfort her all you want. Be a good friend, but I think perhaps you should realize that you are too close to this situation.
 
What should I tell her? She’s wrong. She has learned she can’t make a man love her. That’s a difficult enough lesson. Why make her feel bad? I’ll always think he is worse for many reasons. I haven’t heard his perspective. If he told me, he felt used too, I wouldn’t argue with him. I guess the reason I lean more to her side, she actually liked him, she told him so and he pretended to like her only for sex. I think she should have wisely ended it once she felt terrible about herself, but like always he told her what he wanted to hear and then “dumped” her coldly.
Yes, I’ll see her as more of the victim.
The situation was always going to end poorly for her, because he cares less. That is why I think it is sad.
What did he lose? Nothing other than a girl he can sleep with on the weekends. He doesn’t even care about her.
The way he did it to me cold.
I remember when my crush asked out a woman in front of me. I felt so small.
I guess the nature of such relationships is just not to expect anything.
Maybe his behavior was expected but I can certainly see how it is cruel and I guess hurtful to her.
Life lessons.
Leave a situation before you’re in too deep and don’t allow anyone to influence your own life choices.
Ultimately if she listened to herself the first sign she felt disrespected, she wouldn’t be still talking about it now.
You have to take of yourself.
I guess friends with benefits is very selfish relationship.
I can’t see how this could be healthy to a girl at all.
That’s my explanation.
 
MargaretofCortona said:
What should I tell her? She’s wrong. She has learned she can’t make a man love her. That’s a difficult enough lesson. Why make her feel bad? I’ll always think he is worse for many reasons. I haven’t heard his perspective. If he told me, he felt used too, I wouldn’t argue with him. I guess the reason I lean more to her side, she actually liked him, she told him so and he pretended to like her only for sex. I think she should have wisely ended it once she felt terrible about herself, but like always he told her what he wanted to hear and then “dumped” her coldly.
Yes, I’ll see her as more of the victim.
The situation was always going to end poorly for her, because he cares less. That is why I think it is sad.
What did he lose? Nothing other than a girl he can sleep with on the weekends. He doesn’t even care about her.
The way he did it to me cold.
I remember when my crush asked out a woman in front of me. I felt so small.
I guess the nature of such relationships is just not to expect anything.
Maybe his behavior was expected but I can certainly see how it is cruel and I guess hurtful to her.
Life lessons.
Leave a situation before you’re in too deep and don’t allow anyone to influence your own life choices.
Ultimately if she listened to herself the first sign she felt disrespected, she wouldn’t be still talking about it now.
You have to take of yourself.
I guess friends with benefits is very selfish relationship.
I can’t see how this could be healthy to a girl at all.
That’s my explanation.
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No one has said it was healthy.

The unhealthy thing is that she sees herself as a victim and not as a willing, adult participant engaging in unhealthy behavior.
 
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No one raped or coerced her. That’s completely true. Does that make her feelings of pain less important or valid? You cannot feel hurt to something you agreed to if I’m correct?
For myself, I have trouble admitting I’m wrong too if the consequences only hurt me.
The reason I keep saying it was worse for her because he doesn’t care. What did he have to lose? I’m assuming he loved the idea of having a girl who he could sleep with whenever without commitment.
I guess it ain’t that black or white. Your feelings can still be hurt regardless.
 
MargaretofCortona said:
No one raped or coerced her. That’s completely true. Does that make her feelings of pain less important or valid? You cannot feel hurt to something you agreed to if I’m correct?
For myself, I have trouble admitting I’m wrong too if the consequences only hurt me.
The reason I keep saying it was worse for her because he doesn’t care. What did he have to lose? I’m assuming he loved the idea of having a girl who he could sleep with whenever without commitment.
I guess it ain’t that black or white. Your feelings can still be hurt regardless.
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You are WAY too invested in her feelings.

It isn’t black and white.

He got what he wanted. She didn’t.

Her hurt feelings are understandable, but completely disordered. We get upset when we don’t get what we want.

Her focus should be finding healthy relationships (as should yours, quite frankly) than spending time being upset about something that was her fault, too.

The fact she is playing the victim when she had her own agenda is troubling. You would be best to step back from this friendship, lest she turn this illogical behavior on your own friendship.
 
I only feel “bad” for her because she is overweight and I can understand her insecurity. You’re right, I’m way too emotionally invested. I referred to a therapist honestly. I guess it is conniving to use sex to try to get a man to love you.
 
MargaretofCortona said:
I only feel “bad” for her because she is overweight and I can understand her insecurity. You’re right, I’m way too emotionally invested. I referred to a therapist honestly. I guess it is conniving to use sex to try to get a man to love you.
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Yes, you are starting to get it. It is wrong to use sex for your own purpose, especially using it to try to win someone’s love.

Even secular people recognize it.

Ever heard of the movie “He’s just not that into you?”

Or the book

https://www.amazon.com/Hes-Just-That-Into-Understanding/dp/141690977X

Totally secular.

Saying the same thing I am.
 
Either you have spoken of this friend before, or she herself posted on the old CAF. This is a very familiar story you are telling, with very similar questions.
 
You are WAY too close to this issue.

WAY too close.

You are adding in all sorts of excuses and issues. Your own issues and your own sins don’t excuse others.

Buy the book.

Stop making excuses for your own poor past behavior.

Then give her the book so she can stop making excuses for her bad behavior.
 
Who is making excuses? I learned you do not sleep with a guy to get him to like you. That is that. She is not Christian, for her, there is no sin. It is still sad she got hurt. I do not think anything she did or I did are right honestly. Where did you get that? I still got used.
 
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