Comparing holiness

[jfz178]

Margaret: I think you raise a good question. I also think that some responders a thinking more about the theoretical question you raise and others are reacting to what they perceive as an actual life experience you are describing.

I don’t what the actual experience is, so I will just give my take on the question. I think there are pros and cons of the effects emotional content have on “holiness.” Less emotional people may be more rational, but they can also be callous, leading them to do bad things and not care about it. Emotion similarly has at least a couple of possibilities. You can be emotional in the sense of being easily hurt and vindictive, as you seem to be describing, but I also think emotional people can be more empathetic, giving them a great capacity for good. I think a lot more goes into holiness than any one polar scale.

As for the issue of sex and rejection, I think we are all pre-programmed to feel some implied commitment as a result of sex. That’s why The Church reserves it for marriage, although I get that is not the reality in a lot of case and I am not judging.

The following is a stereotype, but I also think that women tend have that issue more than men, both because of biology and societal programming. Because of the procreative aspects of sex, instinctively women need that commitment to help provide for a theoretical child. Whereas mens’ biological instincts are to procreate as widely as possible. Men need to learn to control that, but to do so, they must first accept it.

A lot of that is also reflected in what our society teaches. Even though modern women have plenty of popular and media support in thinking sex can be purely casual and some women may get to that point, I don’t think most women can escape that basic programming. The bottom line is that whatever the person you’re talking about is feeling, it’s natural and it happens a lot, so that person is not alone in feeling hurt over a situation like that.

Life can break your heart and if that’s what happened in the situation you describe, I sympathize. The person should know it will get better. The person can let it drag them down into becoming cynical and less holy, or they can pick themself up, learn from it, move on and become more holy. I wish the right choice for that person.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

I’ll agree to disagree. I think she shouldn’t fixate on him but I don’t think some of his behavior to her was justifiable regardless of the nature of a relationship.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

Agree to disagree. Non-exclusivity does not mean no boundaries or everything goes. I am uncertain if I find it unreasonable or not honestly. Casual sex complicates things. Who knows what they agreed to? It is generally in poor taste to behave in such a manner in my honest opinion.
You may not know how you feel about someone until a new person is presented to replace you.
I find it to be slightly insensitive.
Basically saying you’re only good for sex and here is the type of woman I want to date.
Why do that?
Polygamy does not mean people there have no feelings, boundaries, or expectations.
They should never get their feelings hurt or experience jealousy.
Polygamous people are at the core still humans.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I’ll agree to disagree. I think she shouldn’t fixate on him but I don’t think some of his behavior to her was justifiable regardless of the nature of a relationship.

And so you continue to miss the point.

It’s the “well someone sinned worse” argument.

The man’s behavior in this situation is “to be expected”. The man was not in a committed relationship. He is not acting as if he is. This is no surprise.

Somehow I feel like this a fundamental argument about feelings vs natural consequences. The woman’s refusal to acknowledge the natural consequences of embarking on an intimate act with someone who did not want intimacy from it is the issue here.

The man’s actions are not inherently cruel. When one is breaking the natural order, the natural order is broken. You can’t say “Well, I’m going to break the natural way of things but then expect an ordered result” That just can’t happen. Once you set foot down on a path of wrong, it’s not going to be corrected overnight.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

Hmmm… I agree with you here but I wouldn’t tell her she is wrong for feeling or getting hurt. Perhaps to you, the feelings are transitory or irrelevant, I disagree. He did not treat her with an ounce of respect. Honestly, you don’t know these particular people in question. I understand her later feeling used like an object. I definitely agree she shouldn’t have settled or expected more from him, I don’t think some of his behavior was ever truly acceptable.
Asking a woman in front of her? Technically he is within his right to do so. I still think that is a harsh form of rejection or way of telling her he is done with her.
I fully agree once you start done a certain path, change your expectations.
Is she wrong or prideful for getting hurt? There is a part of me that agrees then part of me thinks she is only a human. People don’t always know what they can handle or anticipate the consequences of their choices.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

Hmmm… I don’t think woman even believes fornication is a sin. It is not an argument about who sinned better or worse. She doesn’t believe it. She felt screwed over by a game. That simple. She doesn’t believe fornication has any consequences for the man.
Who am I to argue with her she shouldn’t feel offended or hurt he asked out a girl in front of her?
She is already in pain enough. Why make matters worse?
Perhaps to you, feelings are less important.
It didn’t happen to you.
Just because a relationship is sinful, doesn’t make it less hurtful or that the “victim” shouldn’t feel hurt.
This is where I disagree.
She may have signed up for casual sex, she was most likely going to get her feelings hurt, but that doesn’t make some of things he said/did to her magically ok because that is the nature of casual sex.

Uh…casual sex is far more complicated than I thought.

My male friend straight up told this chubby chick he was sleeping with, he would never date her because of her weight. Is she right or wrong to feel offended? She shouldn’t have expected more than sex, but I understand why she may have felt slighted or even offended.

I thought my male was a jerk for saying that but to him he was being frank and realistic with expectations.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Hmmm… I agree with you here but I wouldn’t tell her she is wrong for feeling or getting hurt. Perhaps to you, the feelings are transitory or irrelevant, I disagree. He did not treat her with an ounce of respect. Honestly, you don’t know these particular people in question. I understand her later feeling used like an object. I definitely agree she shouldn’t have settled or expected more from him, I don’t think some of his behavior was ever truly acceptable.
Asking a woman in front of her? Technically he is within his right to do so. I still think that is a harsh form of rejection or way of telling her he is done with her.
I fully agree once you start done a certain path, change your expectations.
Is she wrong or prideful for getting hurt? There is a part of me that agrees then part of me thinks she is only a human. People don’t always know what they can handle or anticipate the consequences of their choices.

By having sex with him, she did not treat him with one ounce of respect, either.

And therein lies the problem.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Hmmm… I don’t think woman even believes fornication is a sin. It is not an argument about who sinned better or worse. She doesn’t believe it. She felt screwed over by a game. That simple. She doesn’t believe fornication has any consequences for the man.
Who am I to argue with her she shouldn’t feel offended or hurt he asked out a girl in front of her?
She is already in pain enough. Why make matters worse?
Perhaps to you, feelings are less important.
It didn’t happen to you.
Just because a relationship is sinful, doesn’t make it less hurtful or that the “victim” shouldn’t feel hurt.
This is where I disagree.
She may have signed up for casual sex, she was most likely going to get her feelings hurt, but that doesn’t make some of things he said/did to her magically ok because that is the nature of casual sex.

Uh…casual sex is far more complicated than I thought.

My male friend straight up told this chubby chick he was sleeping with, he would never date her because of her weight. Is she right or wrong to feel offended? She shouldn’t have expected more than sex, but I understand why she may have felt slighted or even offended.

I thought my male was a jerk for saying that but to him he was being frank and realistic with expectations.

She is NOT a victim.

That notion is incredibly ridiculous and offensive.

Unless he is an adult and she is a minor or he holds some kind of political, moral or social power over her she isn’t a “victim” at all, except perhaps of her own bad actions.

Not buying into her twisted agenda of psudo-vicitmhood is not “making matters worse”.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

I told you, she doesn’t believe fornication is a sin. She doesn’t see it that way. I think she was using him to feel beautiful, sexy and for attention. Do I think she genuinely loved him? I personally don’t think so. She doesn’t see herself as using him for sex because she wasn’t. She was using him for attention or to boost her self esteem. It had little to do with pleasure honestly.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

I think he manipulated her and played on her insecurities. I think she got played. It was not like he was clear from the start of his intentions. This is why I see it differently. He did hint wanting to be her boyfriend, he did get upset she was talking to a different man and he did tell her he didn’t just want sex and that she was his closest friend. As a bystander I thought he would eventually ask her out, he never did. He was at least leading her on

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I told you, she doesn’t believe fornication is a sin. She doesn’t see it that way. I think she was using him to feel beautiful, sexy and for attention. Do I think she genuinely loved him? I personally don’t think so. She doesn’t see herself as using him for sex because she wasn’t. She was using him for attention or to boost her self esteem. It had little to do with pleasure honestly.

I didn’t mention sin at all.

I said respect. She did not treat him with respect and personal dignity. As you say, she was using him.

She doesn’t see it so it doesn’t make it true?

This is an issue of reality, perhaps, and she is choosing to live an alternate universe. She refuses to believe she did anything wrong. She used him for her own means. So did he.

But then he is the one in the wrong when he is done? Just because she’s not done using him?

I think your friend has a huge issue with reality here.

Again, this has nothing to do with sin or not. She wanted something and she “got” what she wanted.

Then, she felt entitled to more.

If anything, as a friend, it is important for you to remain in reality and perhaps slowly and kindly help her to see that her using men for her own purposes is no different then them using her.

The problem, again, is that she feels that she did nothing wrong and that he did everything wrong. That he is not entitled to act as he wishes but she is.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I think he manipulated her and played on her insecurities. I think she got played. It was not like he was clear from the start of his intentions. This is why I see it differently. He did hint wanting to be her boyfriend, he did get upset she was talking to a different man and he did tell her he didn’t just want sex and that she was his closest friend. As a bystander I thought he would eventually ask her out, he never did. He was at least leading her on

But again, this is more about how she’s somehow not to blame. Sure, people can be manipulative, but in absence of actual power, this is a path that she chose.

She wanted to get her way and she was willing to do whatever to get it. When one takes a gamble, they take a gamble. They weren’t even dating. Again, what did they expect?

 

[MargaretofCortona]

I disagree with you. I think she should have told him what she wanted and did not settle. I think it is manipulative for him to tell exactly want she wanted to hear. I don’t think it is right to throw it back in her face that they weren’t together so she shouldn’t have expected more. People are responsible for their words ultimately. He didn’t have to say that, even if she foolishly believed it to be true.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

I disagree with you. I think she should have told him what she wanted and did not settle. I think it is manipulative for him to tell exactly want she wanted to hear. I don’t think it is right to throw it back in her face that they weren’t together so she shouldn’t have expected more. People are responsible for their words ultimately. He didn’t have to say that, even if she foolishly believed it to be true.

But, again she was using him for her own reasons. Just because he spoke what she wanted to hear does not mean that she is innocent.

I think that’s the crux of the issue. You want to defend and forget her errors but not his.

I don’t think there’s a reasonable way to help her if you cannot come to terms with her error, it is perhaps better you do not discuss this with her at all.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

Where did you see that she is entitled to act as she wishes but he is not?
I think casual sex is too complicated.
It probably should have ended.
No one owes anyone exclusivity.
Ultimately I think both have issues.
Good thing I talk to neither too much.
I cut him off coldly.
I don’t understand. They were both upset that each other had someone on the side but neither wanted to commit.
Why?

 

[JamalChristophr]

Interesting how much more women analyze relationships compared to men. It seems you’re looking for some sort of justice here. Perhaps you can help her to see her error, but perhaps not. Human relationships are fraught with risk. There’s no getting around it. As I think you are realizing, a little bit of wisdom and following God’s plan can go a long way.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

I told her point blank that she’s simply upset she slept with a man who didn’t care and she shouldn’t have settled. It is difficult to tell someone who doesn’t believe in God that she was disrespecting him. I told her it was wrong of her to cling on her to ex boyfriend while sleeping with another man, no wonder he asked out a woman in her face. I think it was done out of spite.
I think she shouldn’t have believed his mixed messages but she elected to.

She’s upset with me because I told her it would be rude to end it through a text message and cut him off social media.

Hehe. She didn’t. Then when he asked out a girl in front of her and sent her a text highlighting all her personal shortcomings for reasons he didn’t like her. She was hurt, livid and wounded her pride.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

How would a dude look at the situation?

 

[MargaretofCortona]

Since no one here thinks I can see her error objectively, point it out so I can say so honestly and kindly. Remember this woman is not a Christian.

 

[MargaretofCortona]

I think she foolishly acquiesced to an open relationship she didn’t want just because she got attached. I think she put up with his disrespect, because she felt she couldn’t say anything because they aren’t truly an item. I think the simplest answer was to walk away and listen to actions not words. I think she wanted to believe his very obvious lies perhaps in denial that it was truly just sex for him.
I don’t think why she somehow sees this as a big personal loss or something to dwell on.

Just because he doesn’t have power over her, I don’t think it makes his behavior less manipulative.

Some say him mentioning all the ways he is not her type is a way of having power over her. Why say that yet change tunes then deny such words once she decides to end it?

Stringing someone along and playing on someone’s insecurities and emotions.

I personally do not know what to tell her honestly.