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childhoodtimes
Guest
if God so loved the world including offcourse his people then why he created hell to suffer his children?
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W
wcknight
Guest
God didn’t create Hell. Satan and his demons created it. PLUS God doesn’t send anyone there. That’s where you choose to go when you reject God and turn your back on Heaven.
V
vinarabo
Guest
Hell is a choice. No sinner with unforgiven sins can enter heaven. Hell is for those who dont want to repent by their own choice.
F
Fail
Guest
hypothetical, what if someone doesn’t recognize/remember a particular sin they committed?
H
Homebrew_roots
Guest
All sin is intentional, if its unintentional it isn’t a sin. Also, a oerson doesnt have to recognize every sin that they have committed in order to repent for their sin, it could probably be more of a general repentence if its on the deathbed and it was sincere.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Think about this:
You love your spouse. If they said to you - “I hate you. I’m leaving you; I’ve been having an affair with my boss; I’m going to live with him; I never want to see you again, get out of my life!”
As much as you are saddened, out of love you let them go to where they want to be. The same applies to God. We tell Him that we hate Him and want to live with our new god (money, drugs, lust, bloodshed, etc.) every time we sin. And as much as He misses us, He will let us go to where our hearts desire is (hell - completely turned inward toward our own selfish pleasures).
You love your spouse. If they said to you - “I hate you. I’m leaving you; I’ve been having an affair with my boss; I’m going to live with him; I never want to see you again, get out of my life!”
As much as you are saddened, out of love you let them go to where they want to be. The same applies to God. We tell Him that we hate Him and want to live with our new god (money, drugs, lust, bloodshed, etc.) every time we sin. And as much as He misses us, He will let us go to where our hearts desire is (hell - completely turned inward toward our own selfish pleasures).
C
childhoodtimes
Guest
then why he puts our soul to suffer eternally, because I’m sure God can make our soul disappear I think “complete disappearance” is more better than to put your loveones in fire eternally ?
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Peter_Dawson
Guest
Personal opinion:
I suspect that the portrait of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 and 3 is very benign – that, in other words, humans, deprived of grace, are “evil in a frenzied way.”
Could it be that, at Judgment Time, God just gives mortal sinners what they opted for – awayness from grace? He deprives them of all grace.
Instantly, the person adjudged “damned” feels consummately evil. He finds the presence of God and of the “graced” ones utterly repulsive.
So, he RUNS to Hell, flags flying, when he and his fellow damned engage in a Bedlam-like frenzy of evil. Hell needs no walls. The only thing the damned in Hell hate worse than each other is the things of God beyond the boundaries of Hell.
I suspect that the portrait of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 and 3 is very benign – that, in other words, humans, deprived of grace, are “evil in a frenzied way.”
Could it be that, at Judgment Time, God just gives mortal sinners what they opted for – awayness from grace? He deprives them of all grace.
Instantly, the person adjudged “damned” feels consummately evil. He finds the presence of God and of the “graced” ones utterly repulsive.
So, he RUNS to Hell, flags flying, when he and his fellow damned engage in a Bedlam-like frenzy of evil. Hell needs no walls. The only thing the damned in Hell hate worse than each other is the things of God beyond the boundaries of Hell.
M
Mijoy2
Guest
I’ve often thought this too, or something quite similiar. When/if we envision a particular person in hell (which in and of itself is not a good thing to do) we tend to think of that person as we know them on earth. However, we know that we are not to envision that person as they are on earth in heaven. We know that nothing imperfect can enter into heaven. Thus we have purgatory to purify us.Personal opinion:
I suspect that the portrait of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 and 3 is very benign – that, in other words, humans, deprived of grace, are “evil in a frenzied way.”
Could it be that, at Judgment Time, God just gives mortal sinners what they opted for – awayness from grace? He deprives them of all grace.
Instantly, the person adjudged “damned” feels consummately evil. He finds the presence of God and of the “graced” ones utterly repulsive.
So, he RUNS to Hell, flags flying, when he and his fellow damned engage in a Bedlam-like frenzy of evil. Hell needs no walls. The only thing the damned in Hell hate worse than each other is the things of God beyond the boundaries of Hell.
Therefore, possible the damned soul can no longer seek heaven. The damned soul as Peter Dawson here quotes is totally without grace. The soul is living in the ultimate Godless existence he so desired on earth.
Purely speculation on my part.
F
FCEGM
Guest
From a previous thread on this subject:then why he puts our soul to suffer eternally, because I’m sure God can make our soul disappear I think “complete disappearance” is more better than to put your loveones in fire eternally ?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4913920&postcount=29
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
You are operating under a mistaken assumption. God does not put our souls to suffer eternally. Hell is a freely chosen rejection of God. The suffering there is existence without God–that’s what causes the pain.then why he puts our soul to suffer eternally,
Again, God does not put His loved ones in fire eternally.because I’m sure God can make our soul disappear I think “complete disappearance” is more better than to put your loveones in fire eternally ?
But if God snuffed the damned out of existence, He would not be God, for then He would not be benevolent.
Once God bestows a gift, He does not take it back. Now, it is possible to throw away some of His gifts (for example, salvation) but it is impossible to throw away one’s own existence.
Besides, those in Hell have freely chosen to exist in Hell. God, being a perfect gentleman, allows them what they ask for. Perhaps you would prefer He forces them into heaven against their will? In that case, He would be forcing His Presence, and His love, upon those who hate Him. That doesn’t sound like something a benevolent God would do.
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PennitentMan
Guest
Let me put it this way:
Man was set up to fall and to receive the worst punishment conceivable.
God created man. He is all-knowing, so when he created man, he KNEW that man would fall. Even though he knew it, he still created man, knowing what his punishment would be. And when man fell (big surprise to god), he still punished him…not just physiologically, but also with eternal punishment…AND not only for him, but all his decedents and thus the whole human race.
Now, having said that…why did god even continue to create us? He loves us all so much, but he still made us this way, even though he knew the outcome? And he kept his punishment as harsh as he did, even after he knew he made us to fall…
Anyone who tells me that we freely choose hell, I’d ask to consider this above…God made us this way. He is a cruel dictator that require absolute obedience or eternal death as punishment. He’s already showed that.
Then, to send his son to try and save us from his first mistake points to the fact that god is not perfect…Either he didn’t have the foresight to see these events and it therefore not almighty, or he didn’t care and chose to damn the souls that didn’t get it right the first time, and is this not all loving.
His actions are not in conjunction with an all-powerful all loving father.
Man was set up to fall and to receive the worst punishment conceivable.
God created man. He is all-knowing, so when he created man, he KNEW that man would fall. Even though he knew it, he still created man, knowing what his punishment would be. And when man fell (big surprise to god), he still punished him…not just physiologically, but also with eternal punishment…AND not only for him, but all his decedents and thus the whole human race.
Now, having said that…why did god even continue to create us? He loves us all so much, but he still made us this way, even though he knew the outcome? And he kept his punishment as harsh as he did, even after he knew he made us to fall…
Anyone who tells me that we freely choose hell, I’d ask to consider this above…God made us this way. He is a cruel dictator that require absolute obedience or eternal death as punishment. He’s already showed that.
Then, to send his son to try and save us from his first mistake points to the fact that god is not perfect…Either he didn’t have the foresight to see these events and it therefore not almighty, or he didn’t care and chose to damn the souls that didn’t get it right the first time, and is this not all loving.
His actions are not in conjunction with an all-powerful all loving father.
M
Mijoy2
Guest
Yeah. Either that or He created us to live with Him forever in a paradise beyond our wildest imagination.Let me put it this way:
Man was set up to fall and to receive the worst punishment conceivable.
God created man. He is all-knowing, so when he created man, he KNEW that man would fall. Even though he knew it, he still created man, knowing what his punishment would be. And when man fell (big surprise to god), he still punished him…not just physiologically, but also with eternal punishment…AND not only for him, but all his decedents and thus the whole human race.
Now, having said that…why did god even continue to create us? He loves us all so much, but he still made us this way, even though he knew the outcome? And he kept his punishment as harsh as he did, even after he knew he made us to fall…
Anyone who tells me that we freely choose hell, I’d ask to consider this above…God made us this way. He is a cruel dictator that require absolute obedience or eternal death as punishment. He’s already showed that.
Then, to send his son to try and save us from his first mistake points to the fact that god is not perfect…Either he didn’t have the foresight to see these events and it therefore not almighty, or he didn’t care and chose to damn the souls that didn’t get it right the first time, and is this not all loving.
His actions are not in conjunction with an all-powerful all loving father.
If so, I want in!
P
PennitentMan
Guest
According to catholic teaching evil is never permitted, even if the your intentions are the best ever…Yeah. Either that or He created us to live with Him forever in a paradise beyond our wildest imagination.
If so, I want in!
The way you phrase it, it sounds like god used evil means for a good end. I wish the big guy would practice what he preaches…
W
wcknight
Guest
You sound like a very bitter soul. Your impression of God is like a saddist character who likes to trick and torture his creations.According to catholic teaching evil is never permitted, even if the your intentions are the best ever…
The way you phrase it, it sounds like god used evil means for a good end. I wish the big guy would practice what he preaches…
Along with your free will and weaknesses to commit sin, God gave you all the capabilities AND help to overcome your failings. When ever you fail all you need to do is ask for forgiveness, and His mercy is such that every sin you commit is reconciled.
You make it sound like everyone is automatically doomed to failure. BUT the truth is everyone is destined for success. Jesus reconciles ALL before His Father, all you need to do is ask for forgiveness. IF you can’t take that simple first step then you are left to your own defenses.
So God knew that men would sin, He also knew that men would need forgiveness, and so He sent His only Son to make that reconcilliation. It was the only way that He could create us with free will, free to obey His will and free to love Him without coercion, and free to ask for forgiveness. He didn’t want robots, is He gave us free will to make our own decisions.
So what evil, is it that you want to accuse God of ???
P
PennitentMan
Guest
Dude, I followed this guy for 34 years. I confessed regularly, usually once a month, but sometimes as frequent as once a week. We were true, faithful Catholics for the longest time…I did all these things that you mention I should try, and more…much much more, on a daily basis.You sound like a very bitter soul. Your impression of God is like a saddist character who likes to trick and torture his creations.
Along with your free will and weaknesses to commit sin, God gave you all the capabilities AND help to overcome your failings. When ever you fail all you need to do is ask for forgiveness, and His mercy is such that every sin you commit is reconciled.
You make it sound like everyone is automatically doomed to failure. BUT the truth is everyone is destined for success. Jesus reconciles ALL before His Father, all you need to do is ask for forgiveness. IF you can’t take that simple first step then you are left to your own defenses.
Trust me when I say that whatever I feel towards the church, all the bitterness you read, was instilled in me by her. All I did was follow as best I could, but I got burned and burned. God wasn’t there to answer questions or prayers…god is not there.
I took that “first step” so many times, prayed so hard, god burned by church teachings, priests turned their back on us when hard times hit, etc….this all made me start to question….but my real de-conversion came from researching, reading and trying to find god…I was trying to make my relationship stronger, and I found out that he wasn’t there to start with! Ironic, isn’t it? My search for god led me away from him.
Looking at the creation account, he created people, intentionally causing them to fall, or at the very least knowing they will fall even before he created them, but still going ahead, knowing what punishment he would inflict upon them, but still doing it anyway, and the reason he went ahead was because he wants to save our souls(as many as he can) but he caused the suffering of the rest of the world…that’s evil for the purpose of good.So what evil, is it that you want to accuse God of ???
Do you want more examples?
Genocide? (Slaughtering entire nations for the sake of the Israelites) Evil
Slavery? Evil
Coercion? (Pharaoh’s hardening of heart) Evil
Incest? (Lot’s daughters) Evil
Adultery? (David) Evil
The list goes on.
E
elvisman
Guest
WRONG**.**Dude, I followed this guy for 34 years. I confessed regularly, usually once a month, but sometimes as frequent as once a week. We were true, faithful Catholics for the longest time…I did all these things that you mention I should try, and more…much much more, on a daily basis.
Trust me when I say that whatever I feel towards the church, all the bitterness you read, was instilled in me by her. All I did was follow as best I could, but I got burned and burned. God wasn’t there to answer questions or prayers…god is not there.
I took that “first step” so many times, prayed so hard, god burned by church teachings, priests turned their back on us when hard times hit, etc….this all made me start to question….but my real de-conversion came from researching, reading and trying to find god…I was trying to make my relationship stronger, and I found out that he wasn’t there to start with! Ironic, isn’t it? My search for god led me away from him.
Looking at the creation account, he created people, intentionally causing them to fall, or at the very least knowing they will fall even before he created them, but still going ahead, knowing what punishment he would inflict upon them, but still doing it anyway, and the reason he went ahead was because he wants to save our souls(as many as he can) but he caused the suffering of the rest of the world…that’s evil for the purpose of good.
Do you want more examples?
Genocide? (Slaughtering entire nations for the sake of the Israelites) Evil
Slavery? Evil
Coercion? (Pharaoh’s hardening of heart) Evil
Incest? (Lot’s daughters) Evil
Adultery? (David) Evil
The list goes on.
God “caused” none of the above – MAN did.
God gave us** free will**** so that he could not force his love on us like some sort of supernatural rapist, dragging us into heaven – kicking and screaming against our will.**
**He also gave us free will so that he couldn’t drag us into hell – kicking and screaming against our will. He gave us the choice to love him or not **to love him. I’d say that makes him a benevolent, loving father, whereas you say it makes him a monster.
Your** problem is that you don’t know the scriptures.**
Jesus NEVER promised that it would be easy. In fact, he said the polar opposite. He said we would suffer and be hated. Did he CAUSE this? Nope. He just happens to know about human nature.
People like you, who turn their backs on God because things didn’t go their way, are ignorant of the scriptures. You blame everybody from bad priests to God himself, yet you never take any responsibility for your own ignorance.
Don’t blame God because you feel you wasted 34 years because you didn‘t understand what Christianity was all about – blame yourself for not knowing him.
P
PennitentMan
Guest
All I can say is to re-post my earlier one…it addresses this one perfectly. And dude, it gets very difficult to address particular points if I have to fight all the font and colour and bold annotations…WRONG**.**
God “caused” none of the above – MAN did.
God gave us** free will**** so that he could not force his love on us like some sort of supernatural rapist, dragging us into heaven – kicking and screaming against** our will.
He also gave us free will so that he couldn’t drag us into hell – kicking and screaming against our will. He gave us the choice to love him or not** **to love him. I’d say that makes him a benevolent, loving father, whereas you say it makes him a monster.
Your** problem is that you don’t know the scriptures.**
Jesus NEVER promised that it would be easy. In fact, he said the polar opposite. He said we would suffer and be hated. Did he CAUSE** this? Nope. He just happens to know about human nature.**
People like you, who turn their backs on God because things didn’t go their way, are ignorant of the scriptures. You blame everybody from bad priests to God himself, yet you never take any responsibility for your own ignorance.
Don’t blame God because you feel you wasted 34 years because you didn‘t** understand what Christianity was all about – blame yourself for not knowing him.**
Let me put it this way:
Man was set up to fall and to receive the worst punishment conceivable.
God created man. He is all-knowing, so when he created man, he KNEW that man would fall. Even though he knew it, he still created man, knowing what his punishment would be. And when man fell (big surprise to god), he still punished him…not just physiologically, but also with eternal punishment…AND not only for him, but all his decedents and thus the whole human race.
Now, having said that…why did god even continue to create us? He loves us all so much, but he still made us this way, even though he knew the outcome? And he kept his punishment as harsh as he did, even after he knew he made us to fall…
Anyone who tells me that we freely choose hell, I’d ask to consider this above…God made us this way. He is a cruel dictator that require absolute obedience or eternal death as punishment. He’s already showed that.
Then, to send his son to try and save us from his first mistake points to the fact that god is not perfect…Either he didn’t have the foresight to see these events and it therefore not almighty, or he didn’t care and chose to damn the souls that didn’t get it right the first time, and is this not all loving.
His actions are not in conjunction with an all-powerful all loving father.
E
elvisman
Guest
Great cop-out . . . umm, dude.All I can say is to re-post my earlier one…it addresses this one perfectly. And dude, it gets very difficult to address particular points if I have to fight all the font and colour and bold annotations…
I addressed your last few posts with my last response.
You claim that God “set us up” and that he is a “dictator”. Like I already pointed out - you blame God and bad priests for your lack of faith.
Y****ou sound like the proverbial spoiled whiner that didn’t get what he wanted so he took his ball and went home. Did you ever think that maybe your requests weren’t being fulfilled because you didn’t have faith? Going through the motions doesn’t mean you have faith or obedience.
Every priest in the world could ignore me but that wouldn’t nullify my love for God. You turned your back on God because you didn’t take the time to know Him or his Church.
P
PennitentMan
Guest
Great cop-out . . . umm, dude.
I don’t see a cop-out at all.I addressed your last few posts with my last response.
I withdrew my faith due to his lack of existence. And even if he did exist, the theology requires me to believe, love and worship someone like that. I can’t do it.You claim that God “set us up” and that he is a “dictator”. Like I already pointed out - you blame God and bad priests for your lack of faith.
Yeah, of course it did occur to me, and I evaluated my motives and requests and saw that worse and worse things were happening the more we followed the rules. I used to be full of faith, but the more I searched and implored, the more I realized god wasn’t there to begin with. Like I said…my search for god lead me to realize that he’s not there.You sound like the proverbial spoiled whiner that didn’t get what he wanted so he took his ball and went home. Did you ever think that maybe your requests weren’t being fulfilled because you didn’t have faith? Going through the motions doesn’t mean you have faith or obedience.
I think I sound more like the kid who realized that the whole game had been a farce, that the players and the field were mere holograms and then picked up his ball and left the area…disappointed at the waste of time and effort.
Nope, I turned my back on the concept of god because he doesn’t exist.Every priest in the world could ignore me but that wouldn’t nullify my love for God. You turned your back on God because you didn’t take the time to know Him or his Church.
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