concerns about freemasonry

[jam070406]

I’m a former Marine, I fought for this country and I believe in the First Amendment. If you don’t have any respect for freedom or the U.S. Constitution then GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY! I won’t let any fanatical religion create a theocracy in my country, whether it be Muslims trying to impose Sharia Law, evangelical fundamentalists, or the Catholic Church.

Who said anything about creating a theocracy??
I have respect for freedom and the Constitution. And I believe it was founded on Judeo Christian principles.
Thank you for serving.

 

[gamewell45]

You made the claim that Masonry doesn’t plot against the Church as if you’ve been privy to high levels Masonic conversations in the Lodge.

Just out of curiousity; what possible gain could the Freemasons achieve by “plotting” against the church? To me thinking open mindedly, it appears to be absurd that a fraternity would plot against any religious body.

 

[jam070406]

Just out of curiousity; what possible gain could the Freemasons achieve by “plotting” against the church? To me thinking open mindedly, it appears to be absurd that a fraternity would plot against any religious body.

Removing Catholic morality from society.

 

[gamewell45]

Removing Catholic morality from society.

Do you have any impiricle evidence to base that on?

 

[TrentCath]

I have friend, in fact a link to the most recent encyclical is just above your post. I’m using evidence in a technical, legal sense, as in providing proof which supports an argument rather than speculation and conjecture. I will grant you, the encyclicals are full of speculation and conjecture, I guess that is what you define as evidence.

And here we have a classic case of the continuity of rupture, friend, its not as if 170 years of Papal warnings about Freemasonry suddenly goes out of date. And to believe that all those encyclicals were written without evidence is a gross slander against no less 8 popes, its an idea so absurd that its illogic is evident to all.

One would also point that papal enycyclicals DO count as evidence in the Catholic Church, very weighty evidence I might add, 8 popes worth of Papal Encyclicals counts as overwhelming evidence.

 

[TrentCath]

I’m a former Marine, I fought for this country and I believe in the First Amendment.

Thats great do you also believe ‘In one holy catholic and apostolic church’? And in its head on earth, the Pope?

If you don’t have any respect for freedom or the U.S. Constitution then GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY!

Are you comparing the writings of Popes with a secular consitution of a country? You also seem ironically to be violating the very constitution you claim to uphold by telling those that disagree with you to leave, whereas the constitution gurantee’s freedom of expression

I won’t let any fanatical religion create a theocracy in my country, whether it be Muslims trying to impose Sharia Law, evangelical fundamentalists, or the Catholic Church.

Are you actually catholic? It seems a little odd to insult your own religion…

 

[Brian_H]

And here we have a classic case of the continuity of rupture, friend, its not as if 170 years of Papal warnings about Freemasonry suddenly goes out of date. And to believe that all those encyclicals were written without evidence is a gross slander against no less 8 popes, its an idea so absurd that its illogic is evident to all.

One would also point that papal enycyclicals DO count as evidence in the Catholic Church, very weighty evidence I might add, 8 popes worth of Papal Encyclicals counts as overwhelming evidence.

Then point out on one piece of credible evidence, evidence which isn’t conjecture or speculation. You can’t because there is none. The most recent of these Popes was Leo XIII in 1884 and you are forgetting that Canon 1374 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law changed things. As I’ve mentioned before, Leo XIII is the same Pope that denounced democracy and equality. Let me point out what is illogical, your argument that because 8 Popes say something, even though there is no evidence to support it, it has to be true. I’ve mentioned Chick Tracts before, your argument is the same as someone saying that there are a number of Chick Tracts making accusations against the Catholic Church, the Chick Tracts are evidence against the Church, and therefore those accusations are true. That is nonsense.

 

[Brian_H]

Thats great do you also believe ‘In one holy catholic and apostolic church’? And in its head on earth, the Pope?

Are you comparing the writings of Popes with a secular consitution of a country? You also seem ironically to be violating the very constitution you claim to uphold by telling those that disagree with you to leave, whereas the constitution gurantee’s freedom of expression
Are you actually catholic? It seems a little odd to insult your own religion…

I do believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, that doesn’t give me the right to impose my religion on others. They are protected by the First Amendment. As a Catholic, you are commanded to respect the civil government. I’m not violating anyone’s right to express an opinion, if someone seeks to impose their religion on others, that would violate the First Amendment, I’m not willing to let anyone violate the First Amendment by forcing their religion on others in violation of the First Amendment, I’m sorry that you didn’t understand that. I’m Catholic, I guess you don’t have any substantive arguments because you are going to resort to insulting me.

 

[regression]

Then point out on one piece of credible evidence, evidence which isn’t conjecture or speculation. You can’t because there is none. The most recent of these Popes was Leo XIII in 1884 and you are forgetting that Canon 1374 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law changed things. As I’ve mentioned before, Leo XIII is the same Pope that denounced democracy and equality. Let me point out what is illogical, your argument that because 8 Popes say something, even though there is no evidence to support it, it has to be true. I’ve mentioned Chick Tracts before, your argument is the same as someone saying that there are a number of Chick Tracts making accusations against the Catholic Church, the Chick Tracts are evidence against the Church, and therefore those accusations are true. That is nonsense.

Please read these (or read again):

ewtn.com/library/answers/camason1.htm

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19831126_declaration-masonic_en.html

Cannon Law still prohibits Catholics from joining masonic organizations.

 

[TrentCath]

I do believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, that doesn’t give me the right to impose my religion on others. They are protected by the First Amendment. As a Catholic, you are commanded to respect the civil government. I’m not violating anyone’s right to express an opinion, if someone seeks to impose their religion on others, that would violate the First Amendment, I’m not willing to let anyone violate the First Amendment by forcing their religion on others in violation of the First Amendment, I’m sorry that you didn’t understand that. I’m Catholic, I guess you don’t have any substantive arguments because you are going to resort to insulting me.

No insulting involved, merely some commentary, you on the other hand seem to think its fine to tell everyone who doesnt agree with you to ‘Get out of my country’ and implicitly insult 8 popes.

 

[TrentCath]

Then point out on one piece of credible evidence, evidence which isn’t conjecture or speculation. You can’t because there is none. The most recent of these Popes was Leo XIII in 1884 and you are forgetting that Canon 1374 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law changed things. As I’ve mentioned before, Leo XIII is the same Pope that denounced democracy and equality. Let me point out what is illogical, your argument that because 8 Popes say something, even though there is no evidence to support it, it has to be true. I’ve mentioned Chick Tracts before, your argument is the same as someone saying that there are a number of Chick Tracts making accusations against the Catholic Church, the Chick Tracts are evidence against the Church, and therefore those accusations are true. That is nonsense.

Sorry, what?! Chick Tracts are the same as Papal Encyclicals, Chick Tracts = written by I don’t know who, Papal Encyclicals = Written by the Vicar of Christ, successor of St Peter and head of the Church on earth. I know which one has more authority in my books.

Right, because Pope Leo XIII said something you don’t like, he must be wrong, classic case of the Ad Hominem argument. You also successfully manage to ignore the other 7 Pope’s who have pronounced on the matter and the Vatican’s recent pronouncements. Cardinal Ratzinger says here as secretary of the congregation for the doctrine of the faith that ‘Therefore, the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable
with the doctrine of the Church and, therefore, membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave
sin and may not receive Holy Communion.’

I’d also point out that if 8 popes say something is wrong, thats enough for me, thats the Catholic way.

I have no idea why you are embarking on this pro-masonry crusade but I do warn you that insodoing the church itself declares that you are endangering your eternal salvation.

 

[Brian_H]

Sorry, what?! Chick Tracts are the same as Papal Encyclicals, Chick Tracts = written by I don’t know who, Papal Encyclicals = Written by the Vicar of Christ, successor of St Peter and head of the Church on earth. I know which one has more authority in my books.

Right, because Pope Leo XIII said something you don’t like, he must be wrong, classic case of the Ad Hominem argument. You also successfully manage to ignore the other 7 Pope’s who have pronounced on the matter and the Vatican’s recent pronouncements. Cardinal Ratzinger says here as secretary of the congregation for the doctrine of the faith that ‘Therefore, the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable
with the doctrine of the Church and, therefore, membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave
sin and may not receive Holy Communion.’

I’d also point out that if 8 popes say something is wrong, thats enough for me, thats the Catholic way.

I have no idea why you are embarking on this pro-masonry crusade but I do warn you that insodoing the church itself declares that you are endangering your eternal salvation.

You don’t have any evidence that Freemasonry plots against the Church, your only argument is that 8 Popes say so, so that’s how it is, for the third time, that is not evidence. I’m sorry that you can’t look at evidence, engage in critical thought, and reach your own conclusions, that is unfortunate.

I take it you agree with Leo XIII that democracy and freedom are the work of satan? The earth is flat too, remember that? Do you think the earth is flat? The Pope said so, that’s good enough evidence for you.

And then the old standby, “if you don’t agree with me you are going to hell.” Judge not lest ye be Judge, my source for that is Jesus. Also, I’m not persuaded by threats.

 

[Brian_H]

No insulting involved, merely some commentary, you on the other hand seem to think its fine to tell everyone who doesnt agree with you to ‘Get out of my country’ and implicitly insult 8 popes.

It seems you didn’t understand what I was saying so I’ll try to explain it again. Anyone that wants to impose a theocracy in this country has no respect for the Constitution and the First Amendment, whether they are Muslims trying to impose Shiria Law, evangelical fundamentalists, or Catholics. If someone doesn’t have respect for the basic freedoms (which in this case means respect for separation of church and state) of this country, then they should leave.

 

[TrentCath]

You don’t have any evidence that Freemasonry plots against the Church, your only argument is that 8 Popes say so, so that’s how it is, for the third time, that is not evidence. I’m sorry that you can’t look at evidence, engage in critical thought, and reach your own conclusions, that is unfortunate.

Right so these 8 popes are all either liars or wrong then? Just so I can be sure that you really want to call 8 popes either liars or just plain wrong, its a pretty serious accusation after all.

I take it you agree with Leo XIII that democracy and freedom are the work of satan? The earth is flat too, remember that? Do you think the earth is flat? The Pope said so, that’s good enough evidence for you.

Interestingly enough the Church NEVER taught the world was flat, perhaps you’ve been reading too many chick tracts? As for Leo XIII’s teachings on democracy and freedom, the matter is much more complicated than you would like to make it. His teachings must be seen in the light of the French Revolution, a disaster for the church and have more to do with condemning the separation between church and state (a condemnation I wholly agree with) and the excesses of democracy (which we see when people believe that truth is decided by what the majority believe).

Regardless of the weighty evidence for the popes claims, I will not quote it because nothing would convince you. You are quite literally hellbent on your own interpretation of church teaching with no magisterial support whatsoever and that is a sad thing for any catholic to do.

And then the old standby, “if you don’t agree with me you are going to hell.” Judge not lest ye be Judge, my source for that is Jesus. Also, I’m not persuaded by threats.

Actually no that it isnt what I said, its called fraternal correction and was not a threat merely a fact. I merely want to have a clear conscience before God.

 

[TrentCath]

It seems you didn’t understand what I was saying so I’ll try to explain it again. Anyone that wants to impose a theocracy in this country has no respect for the Constitution and the First Amendment, whether they are Muslims trying to impose Shiria Law, evangelical fundamentalists, or Catholics. If someone doesn’t have respect for the basic freedoms (which in this case means respect for separation of church and state) of this country, then they should leave.

No no I understood well enough, my response hasnt changed. Luckily for you the church is more tolerant of those who deviate from its teachings and encourages them to return to the truth rather than simply ejecting them from its fold and giving them up for damned.

 

[Brian_H]

Right so these 8 popes are all either liars or wrong then? Just so I can be sure that you really want to call 8 popes either liars or just plain wrong, its a pretty serious accusation after all.

Interestingly enough the Church NEVER taught the world was flat, perhaps you’ve been reading too many chick tracts? As for Leo XIII’s teachings on democracy and freedom, the matter is much more complicated than you would like to make it. His teachings must be seen in the light of the French Revolution, a disaster for the church and have more to do with condemning the separation between church and state (a condemnation I wholly agree with) and the excesses of democracy (which we see when people believe that truth is decided by what the majority believe).

Regardless of the weighty evidence for the popes claims, I will not quote it because nothing would convince you. You are quite literally hellbent on your own interpretation of church teaching with no magisterial support whatsoever and that is a sad thing for any catholic to do.

Actually no that it isnt what I said, its called fraternal correction and was not a threat merely a fact. I merely want to have a clear conscience before God.

I’m not so arrogant to believe that Popes don’t make mistakes, apparently you are that arrogant and uninformed. I suppose the Church didn’t teach that the earth revolved around the sun, it didn’t put Galileo on house arrest, didn’t condemn the small pox vaccine, and I could go on and on. The point is, I’m not so ignorant or arrogant as to try and argue the Church hasn’t made a multitude of mistakes.

Pope Leo’s position isn’t complicated at all, there is good and evil. The Church is good, everything that is outside the Church which includes democratic governments, is evil. It’s interesting that you would suggest it needs to be seen in light of the French Revolution, which took place almost 100 years before he wrote Humanum Genus. Most historians would argue that the Italian unification and the loss of the Pope’s kingdom, the Papal States, were what was on his mind. I see you don’t believe in separation of church in state, in my opinion you are an ignorant tyrannical fanatic, no offense. Muslims that know they have the one true faith are hellbent on imposing Sharia law and converting you, so you better hope it’s your version of no separation of church and state that is imposed, because if it’s theirs, you are going to have a bad time.

Again, for the I don’t know how many times now, citing someone else’s opinion and claiming it is evidence IS NOT evidence. I guess you don’t understand what that word means.
I pay attention to what Jesus said, that gives me a clear conscious and I’m not worried. Good luck to you though.

 

[EzraJacob]

I’m not so arrogant to believe that Popes don’t make mistakes, apparently you are that arrogant and uninformed. I suppose the Church didn’t teach that the earth revolved around the sun, it didn’t put Galileo on house arrest, didn’t condemn the small pox vaccine, and I could go on and on. The point is, I’m not so ignorant or arrogant as to try and argue the Church hasn’t made a multitude of mistakes.

Pope Leo’s position isn’t complicated at all, there is good and evil. The Church is good, everything that is outside the Church which includes democratic governments, is evil. It’s interesting that you would suggest it needs to be seen in light of the French Revolution, which took place almost 100 years before he wrote Humanum Genus. Most historians would argue that the Italian unification and the loss of the Pope’s kingdom, the Papal States, were what was on his mind. I see you don’t believe in separation of church in state, in my opinion you are an ignorant tyrannical fanatic, no offense. Muslims that know they have the one true faith are hellbent on imposing Sharia law and converting you, so you better hope it’s your version of no separation of church and state that is imposed, because if it’s theirs, you are going to have a bad time.

Again, for the I don’t know how many times now, citing someone else’s opinion and claiming it is evidence IS NOT evidence. I guess you don’t understand what that word means.
I pay attention to what Jesus said, that gives me a clear conscious and I’m not worried. Good luck to you though.

You remind me of the supposed Catholic I read on another website say how the Catholic Priest are idol-worshipers, because they bow to the crucified Christ

 

[Brian_H]

You remind me of the supposed Catholic I read on another website say how the Catholic Priest are idol-worshipers, because they bow to the crucified Christ

Supposed Catholic, wow, what a nice thing to say. You remind me of people that almost make a relevant comment.

 

[EzraJacob]

Supposed Catholic, wow, what a nice thing to say. You remind me of people that almost make a relevant comment.

I forgot. Catholics bashing on Popes and Church teaching, is allowed. And that makes them good Catholics, or so I herd.

What else is the Pope wrong about then, if I may ask. Homosexuality? Papal infallibility? Women priest?

 

[Brian_H]

I forgot. Catholics bashing on Popes and Church teaching, is allowed. And that makes them good Catholics, or so I herd.

What else is the Pope wrong about then, if I may ask. Homosexuality? Papal infallibility? Women priest?

I’m not bashing, I’m pointing out facts, the mistakes of the past. There have been reformers throughout Church history and they were frequently attacked. One example, St. John of the Cross, jailed for his efforts. Jesus was a reformer, I suppose he wasn’t a very good Jew since he spoke out against those that abused their position.