concerns about freemasonry

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To respond to your post that I quoted, I’ve provided facts which back up my points several times in response to other posts. When I have, they have been ignored or people have posted a response with arguments that were irrelevant to the point I was trying to make in an attempt to spin the discussion away from the point I raised. .
You have failed to answer any of mine. You claimed St. Augustine denied Papal Authority.

You have never given me any information, no facts, nothing. Remember the posts last night? Did you think about what I said? About the points I made? You never responded. You claim the church only wants to micromanage us, yet they are only fulfilling what Christ charged them to do.
 
You have failed to answer any of mine. You claimed St. Augustine denied Papal Authority.

You have never given me any information, no facts, nothing. Remember the posts last night? Did you think about what I said? About the points I made? You never responded. You claim the church only wants to micromanage us, yet they are only fulfilling what Christ charged them to do.
If I may make a humble suggestion? Walk away. I have been following this suggestion and it is clear that all that will happen from continuing this discussion is that you will be exasperated and driven or at least put at risk of acting uncharitably.

Brian H has made his mind up and is beyond our help, all we can do is pray and hope that Our Lady will show him the error of his ways and guide him to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and all truth.
 
This is the last post I’m going to put on this thread and probably one of the last posts I’ll put on Catholic Answers. To respond to your post that I quoted, I’ve provided facts which back up my points several times in response to other posts. When I have, they have been ignored or people have posted a response with arguments that were irrelevant to the point I was trying to make in an attempt to spin the discussion away from the point I raised. So, why go to the trouble of providing facts when they are going to be ignored or spun by people that seem to have an agenda, an agenda of defending the image of the Catholic Church at all costs, writing posts that spin or ignore facts to achieve that end, and people trying to do whatever must be done to make the Church look good. I feel like there are people on here that try harder to be like Bill Donahue than Jesus. I’m not sure that I even want to remain Catholic after what I have experienced on this thread. The attitude of many of the people on Catholic Answers makes me doubt that the Holy Spirit dwells within them. I’m really starting to believe that the Catholic Church couldn’t care less about Christ’s message and is much more concerned with it’s image, it’s assets, it’s power, and trying to use it’s power to control people. It’s hard for me to believe that I’ve been pushed to this point. I’m not saying this to toot my own horn, but I’m a past Grand Knight in K of C, I’m a sacristan, I’ve been an E.M. in the past, but I’m at least going to resign my sacristan position and I’m probably going to leave the Church. I feel like I’ve seen too much from the laity and the clergy to believe that this is truly Christ’s Church
Im sorry to hear that Brian:( ill leave ya with this passage of scripture hopefully it will strike a chord with ya.
Acts 5:30
“The God of our ancestors raised up Jesus, whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Saviour, so that he might give repentance to Israel and forgivness of sins. and we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.”
 
i was reading this message and it seemed relevant so i thaught id share it with you.

This message was given through fr Stefano Gobbi, founder of the Marian Movement of Priests, via interior locution on Czestochowa (Poland); July 28, 1978. And Has been approved by the Catholic Church as authentic.

A Sign For All

" I have brought you to this country which has been consecrated many times to my Immaculate Heart and of which i have been officially proclaimed Queen. From my shrine I am watching over it; I am protecting it, consoling it, strengthening it and defending it.

It has become my property because it has been entrusted to me through the consecration of each one to my Immaculate Heart. Its sons are conscious of this, because they renew it often and live it.

See how the Church here is alive and flourishing, allthough it has been persecuted for many years and in many ways! The seminarys have not enough space for all the young men who wish to become priests; the churches are filled with the faithful; the priests wear the eccesiastical garb. All prayer is centred about Jesus in the Eucharist, which is venerated, loved and exposed for public adoration.

What is happening in this country is a sign for the whole Church. If the request I made at Fatima for all to consecrate themselves to my Immaculate Heart had been accepted, what has taken place here would also have been taken place everywhere in the world. I would have obtained peace for the world and, for the Church, its greatest sanctification.

On the contrary, the world is plunged into a desert of hatred and violence, and the Church is living through a period of great desolation.

But, my beloved sons, this is my hour!

Through you, my priests, I now call all to consecrate themselves to my Immaculate Heart. In this way, you give your heavenly Mother the opportunity of intervening to bring the Church to it greatest splendor and to prepare the world for the coming of the reign of my Son Jesus."

.
 
Hey Brian, just curious, if the masons have nothing to do with religion, why do they have a Holy Bible which may I add is not the Catholic Bible also, with the Masonic sign on it?

Just curious about that? And I know they have it because I can show you the bible. My Father in law was a Mason. So please don’t tell me that Catholic’s are not forbidden to become a part of this organization, because my FIL made my husbands life hell because he became Catholic and would not join.
Brian, allow me to jump in. The Masons display a bible because it is to remind us of our obligation to God. The printing of a the Square and Compass on it are only to provide knowlege that the Bible (VSL) was printed for use by Freemasons, just like some churches have their names printed on the lower cover for identification purposes.

Because membership in Freemasonry is open to all Christians (in addition to all other religions) and not just Catholics, we have a King James Version Bible on display. For those Catholics who become members our our Lodges, upon request, we will display the Catholic Bible, much like we would display the Koran, etc.
 
hey gamewell, this an awsome passage of scripture wouldnt you agree?
Genesis 3:14-15 (Douay-Rheims)
“And the Lord God said to the serpent (satan): Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. I will put enmities between thee and the woman (Mary Mother of God), and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.”
 
Hey Riffer, here is an awesome history lesson, wouldn’t you agree?
On 14 September, 1307 King Philip IV took advantage of the rumors and inquiry to begin his move against the Knights Templars, sending out a secret order to his agents in all parts of France to implement a mass arrest of all Templars at dawn on 13 October 1307. Philip wanted the Templars arrested and their possessions confiscated to incorporate their wealth into the Royal Treasury and to be free of the enormous debt he owed the Templar Order. Jacque de Molay, the Grand Master of the Templars, was in Paris on 12 October, where he was a pallbearer at the funeral of Catherine of Courtenay, wife of Count Charles of Valios and sister-in-law of King Philip. In a dawn raid on Friday, 13 October 1307, de Molay and sixty of his Templar brothers were arrested. Philip then had the Templars charged with heresy and many other trumped-up charges, most of which were identical to the charges which had previously been leveled by Philip’s agents against Pope Boniface VIII. During forced interrogation by royal agents at the University of Paris on 24/25 October, de Molay confessed that the Templar initiation ritual included “denying Christ and trampling on the Cross”. He was also forced to write a letter asking every Templar to admit to these acts. Under pressure from Philip IV, Pope Clement V ordered the arrest of all the Templars throughout Christendom. The pope still wanted to hear de Molay’s side of the story, and dispatched two cardinals to Paris in December 1307. In front of the cardinals, de Molay retracted his earlier confessions. A power struggle ensued between the king and the pope, which was settled in August 1308 when they agreed to split the convictions. Through the papal bull Faciens misericordiam the procedure to prosecute the Templars was set out on a duality where one commission would judge individuals of the Order and a different commission would judge the Order as an entity. Pope Clement called for an ecumenical council to meet in Vienna in 1310 to decide the future of the Templars. In the meantime, the Order’s dignitaries, among them de Molay, were to be judged by the pope. In the royal palace at Chinon, de Molay was again questioned by the cardinals, but this time with royal agents present, and he returned to his forced admissions made in 1307. In November 1309, the Papal Commission for the Kingdom of France began its own hearings, during which de Molay again recanted, stating that he did not acknowledge the accusations brought against his order. Any further opposition by the Templars was effectively broken when Philip used the previously forced confessions to sentence 54 Templars to be burnt at the stake on 10–12 May 1310. The council which had been called for 1310 was delayed for two years due to the length of the trials, but finally was convened in 1312. On 22 March 1312, at the Council of Vienna, the Order of the Knights Templar was abolished by papal decree. Jacque de Molay’s sentencing took another two years. On 10 March 1314, three cardinals sent by the pope sentenced de Molay and three other Templar dignitaries, Geoffroi de Charney, Hugues de Pairaud, and Geoffroi de Gonneville to life imprisonment. Pairaud and Gonneville accepted their fate, but the 70-year-old de Molay rose up and again recanted publicly. His associate Geoffroi de Charney rallied to his side, and both loudly proclaimed the innocence of themselves and their Order. Philip’s response was to order both to be executed immediately as relapsed heretics. That very night, Jacques de Molay and Geoffroi de Charney were taken to the Isle des Juifs, now incorporated into the Ile de la Cite in the Seinr River in the center of Paris, where they were burned at the stake. According to legend, de Molay asked for his hands to be left free so that he could keep them together in prayer, while facing the nearby Notre Dame Cathedral. Another oft-told tale is that he called out from the flames that both Philip and Clement would soon meet him before God. Clement did indeed die of illness just a few months later, and a few months after that, Philip was killed in a hunting accident.
 
Hey Riffer, here is part 2 of this awesome history lesson:
Of de Molay’s death it is recorded (the account varies by one day, not unusual for chronicles of the middle ages):
“The cardinals dallied with their duty until 19 March 1314, when, on a scaffold in front of Notre Dame, Jacques de Molay, Templar Grand Master, Geoffroi de Charney, Master of Normandy, Hugues de Peraud, Visitor of France, and Godefroi de Gonneville, Master of Aquitaine, were brought forth from the jail in which for nearly seven years they had lain, to receive the sentence agreed upon by the cardinals, in conjunction with the Archbishop of Sens and some other prelates whom they had called in. Considering the offences which the culprits had confessed and confirmed, the penance imposed was in accordance with rule—that of perpetual imprisonment. The affair was supposed to be concluded when, to the dismay of the prelates and wonderment of the assembled crowd, de Molay and Geoffroi de Charney arose. They had been guilty, they said, not of the crimes imputed to them, but of basely betraying their Order to save their own lives. It was pure and holy; the charges were fictitious and the confessions false. Hastily the cardinals delivered them to the Prevot of Paris, and retired to deliberate on this unexpected contingency, but they were saved all trouble. When the news was carried to Philippe he was furious. A short consultation with his council only was required. The canons pronounced that a relapsed heretic was to be burned without a hearing; the facts were notorious and no formal judgment by the papal commission need be waited for. That same day, by sunset, a pile was erected on a small island in the Seine, the Isle des Juifs, near the palace garden. There de Molay and de Charney were slowly burned to death, refusing all offers of pardon for retraction, and bearing their torment with a composure which won for them the reputation of martyrs among the people, who reverently collected their ashes as relics.”
It is said that Jacques de Molay cursed King Phillip and his descendants from his execution pyre. The story of the shouted curse appears to be a combination of words by a different Templar, and those of de Molay. An eyewitness to the execution stated that de Molay showed no sign of fear, and told those present that God would avenge their deaths. Another variation on this story was told by the contemporary chronicler Ferretto of Vicenza, who applied the idea to a Neapolitan Templar brought before Clement V, whom he denounced for his injustice. Some time later, as he was about to be executed, he appealed ‘from this your heinous judgement to the living and true God, who is in Heaven’, warning the pope that, within a year and a day, he and Philip IV would be obliged to answer for their crimes in God’s presence.
It is true that Philip and Clement V both died within a year of Molay’s execution, Clement finally succumbing to a long illness on 20 April 1314, and Philip in a hunting accident. Then followed the rapid succession of the last Capetian kings of France between 1314 and 1328, the three sons of Philip IV. Within 14 years from the death of de Molay, the 300-year-old Capetian collapsed. Even in distant Germany Philippe’s death was spoken of as a retribution for his destruction of the Templars, and Clement was described as shedding tears of remorse on his death-bed for three great crimes, the poisoning of Henry VI, the ruin of the Templars and Beguines.

Weird huh? Well, take er easy. 🙂
 
Hey Riffer, your awesome verse and my history lesson made me think of an awesome verse, I think you should check this out bro.

Revelations 17:6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Take er easy bro 🙂
 
Hey Riffer, your awesome verse and my history lesson made me think of an awesome verse, I think you should check this out bro.

Revelations 17:6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Take er easy bro 🙂
What are you trying to allude with this post? I hope its not what it seems
 
hey gamewell, this an awsome passage of scripture wouldnt you agree?
Genesis 3:14-15 (Douay-Rheims)
“And the Lord God said to the serpent (satan): Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. I will put enmities between thee and the woman (Mary Mother of God), and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.”
It sure is awesome; I’m glad there’s no serpents around here, sounds like they wouldn’t last too long.
 
What are you trying to allude with this post? I hope its not what it seems
I thought it builds on the verse Riffer quoted, the theme of the struggle of good against evil seems to be consistent from Genesis through to Revelations. I’m not sure what you might think it seems like beyond that though.

Peace 🙂
 
I thought it builds on the verse Riffer quoted, the theme of the struggle of good against evil seems to be consistent from Genesis through to Revelations. I’m not sure what you might think it seems like beyond that though.

Peace 🙂
You know exactly what I might be thinking.
Hey Riffer, your awesome verse and my history lesson made me think of an awesome verse, I think you should check this out bro.

Revelations 17:6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Take er easy bro 🙂
If you was making a simple observation of the battle between good and evil from Genesis through to Revelations, then why add the part about your “history lesson”?

Verse from Revelations is a play off of the Genesis quote, and the “history lesson” of some thing that seems to be corrupt.

Don’t beat around the bush like a coward. If you mean to say something, say it plainly.
 
Revelations 17:6: And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
well thats an interesting verse brian, but if you read on, the angel explains it to him,
Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest, is the great city, which hath kingdom over the kings of the earth.

read revelations 13 you might find that interesting too.
As Our Blessed mother pointed out in in her message that i posted in i think post 42, the beast like a leopard is masonry.
and the red dragon is atheistic communism, as she explains in the previous message in the Marian Movement of Priests book.

Also that was an interesting history lesson, but if i were looking for truth id look elsewhere.
heres a good history lesson for you though.
youtube.com/user/riffer791?feature=mhee#p/a/u/0/jker8yks_sU

Im not buying into your lies brian or any of you masons, you say your not plotting against the Church, how stupid do you think we are? your doing it right now! leading people into grave sin by saying its ok for catholics to join masonry, trying to deceive people into defying the pope and the magesterium of the church.
this is the problem in the church today.
the more we argue about this the more it becomes clear that excommunication for masonry, although sad, is necessary.
 
I’ve only got so much time to respond, and I get attacked by ten people at once, so it’s hard to keep up.👍
But what about you? Do you not attack the Church in saying that it has no right or justification in forbidding this organization.

The Pope spoke and explained that it is in direct conflict with OUR CREED. With that said who are you to say that the Pope has no right to teach us on truth and morals when he was given the keys to the kingdom to do so.

Tell me what part of the Popes teaching do you disagree with? He stated why, it is direct conflict with our Creed. You need to show us where the Pope is wrong.
 
Brian, allow me to jump in. The Masons display a bible because it is to remind us of our obligation to God. The printing of a the Square and Compass on it are only to provide knowlege that the Bible (VSL) was printed for use by Freemasons, just like some churches have their names printed on the lower cover for identification purposes.

Because membership in Freemasonry is open to all Christians (in addition to all other religions) and not just Catholics, we have a King James Version Bible on display. For those Catholics who become members our our Lodges, upon request, we will display the Catholic Bible, much like we would display the Koran, etc.
Okay let me ask you this, if I am a Jew can I become a Mason?
 
Hi everyone, I hope you are all having a wonderful Sunday and that the feast of the Assumption of Mary brings you many blessings. I thought I would try to reply to the last few posts as best as I can.

As far as my history lesson, here are some additional details. The Templars were formed around 1119, a few years after the first crusade. They were made a religious order by the Church in 1129 by the Council of Troyes. One reason I think that is interesting is that they were formed before the Carmelites (1208), Franciscans (1209), Dominicans (1216), and Jesuits (1534). Another thing that is interesting is that King Phillip VI of France, a Catholic monarch, helped Clement V become Pope. Clement V moved the Curia from Rome to Avignon. The other thing I find interesting is that King Phillip’s motivation for suppressing the Templars was to avoid repaying his debts and to seize their property in France for his own benefit and that Clement V assisted him in this endeavor. I would have an equally dim view of a government suppressing, murdering, and seizing the property of any other religious order for material gain and with the assistance of the Pope. Maybe that’s just me.

Hi EzraJacob, I have no idea what you might be thinking. I was pointing out that Christ’s Church (good) will triumph over evil. Jacque de Molay is a martyr and the people responsible for his death joined him within a year. See how good triumphs over evil? I think that is a really positive message.

And to my friend Riffer, good morning! I enjoyed your video. I’m sure that I don’t need to tell you that Marian apparitions never receive the status of official Church teaching. At best, they are deemed worthy of belief. I think Fatima is really interesting also. Did you know that some of the more extreme anti-catholic evangelicals claim that Fatima was the work of satan? How absurd is that? Have you seen that atheist skeptics like to point out that a lot of people didn’t see the sun do anything and also claim that the people that saw the sun move or change color was a result of starring at the sun for an extended period of time? I’m sorry you feel I have lied about something because I certainly haven’t, if you don’t want to accept the truth when it is pointed out to you maybe you could do some more research or spend some time in prayer reflecting on it.

Hi Rinnie, I think I have responded to your newest post earlier on this thread. Would you please go back and read through them to see if they answer your questions? Thanks.

God bless everyone and peace 🙂
 
God bless everyone and peace 🙂
Given that you clearly are being led astray and your ears seem to tickle for strange doctrine (ignoring the Church’s firm teaching on the matter of Freemasonry and instead chosing to believe what Freemason’s say instead of the authority of the Churhc you claim\claimed to be a member of) your disobedient stance in the face of the facts we have presented to you is understandable.

However, you go further to speak with forked tongue, as while on one hand you cause confusion and discord on this forum with the lies and disobedience you have shown , while claiming to be Catholic, and on the other hand you talk of peace?

There can be no peace when all are not in union with the truth friend. If you wish peace then be peaceful and truthful.
 
I’m sorry you feel I have lied about something because I certainly haven’t, if you don’t want to accept the truth when it is pointed out to you maybe you could do some more research or spend some time in prayer reflecting on it.
You are the one who does not accept the truth. You gobble up the lies of anti-Catholics and refuse to obey the Church that Jesus himself established to lead and instruct all of us.

You further lied when you first claimed that the Church never took an official position against Freemasonry but against societies plotting against the Church. Then when the evidence was presented to you that Freemasonry was in fact frowned upon seriously by the Church, you began a campaign: casting false claims about this same Catholic Church (sourced from anti-Catholic, Freemasonic included, and atheist sources) to try to lead others to question her moral authority in Jesus.

I think you have an agenda and you are being a stranger to the truth you claim to be presenting. Is this a new strategy by Freemasons: to send one of their apologists to the Catholic forums to stir up trouble or recruit new members? I can only describe you as an apologist as I don’t see why you would so vehemently try to deny the validity of an edict passed on by the Pope and the Magisterium. What is your motivation? And please don’t tell me “the truth” as you have already taken a stance contrary to it.
 
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