concerns about freemasonry

[kinja]

Hi Rinnie and Kinja,

Kinja, you keep saying that Catholics that become masons are excommunicated, they are not, you are wrong, look at Canon 1374 and what then Cardinal Ratzinger said, they are in grave sin. I’m criticized for not understanding Church teaching, but apparently you don’t understand the difference between excommunication and grave sin. Second, the message of Jesus is in the Gospels, don’t be absurd, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit and the Canon of the New Testament was inspired by the Holy Spirit. We as a Church can’t take credit for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Finally, the masons don’t dislike the Papacy, however, it is clear that the Church is hostile towards masonry and this hostility is without justification.

Rinnie, I’ll try to reply to your last few posts. I feel that a Catholic can disregard exercises of power by the clergy which are beyond the power given to them by God. I was pointing out that Popes are sinners because they are capable of acting beyond their authority and abusing their power. I have cited historical facts to show that they have abused their power and been incorrect about matters of morals in the past. For example, myself, and the other “cafeteria” Catholics feel that it is an abuse of power for a member of the clergy to tell us who to vote for. Just as a hypothetical example, if Rick Perry is the republican nominee, Catholics would have to pick between a pro-choice candidate and a pro-life, anti-Catholic candidate. Is it worse to vote for Obama because he is pro-life? I don’t think so.
Freemasonry does not advocate one religion over another, as long as someone believes in God, they can be a member. When you think about this, keep in mind the historical context of masonry’s development. During the 16th-18th centuries Europe was plagued by religious wars and a huge amount of suffering. The Thirty Years War is one of the nastiest wars in all of human history. Look at what happened during the English Civil War. Freemasons wanted to find the common ground, a belief in God, rather than focusing on doctrinal differences and try to work together to have a positive impact.

Peace

No you are wrong again Brian. Read from Catholic sources on this topic as well to get the truth. A mason or anti-catholic will never tell you that the Church’s ruling on Freemasonry is correct:

Q:“ What is the Catholic Church’s official position on Freemasonry? Are Catholics free to become Freemasons?

”A:
Freemasonry is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Freemasonry teaches a naturalistic religion that espouses indifferentism, the position that a person can be equally pleasing to God while remaining in any religion. …

…The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374).

Because the revised code of canon law is not explicit on this point, some drew the mistaken conclusion that the Church’s prohibition of Freemasonry had been dropped. As a result of this confusion, shortly before the 1983 code was promulgated, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a statement indicating that the penalty was still in force. This statement was dated November 26, 1983 and may be found in Origins 13/27 (Nov. 15, 1983), 450.

You can find the whole answer here if you are a true truth seeker.

Take care.

 

[kinja]

No you are wrong again Brian. Read from Catholic sources on this topic as well to get the truth. A mason or anti-catholic will never tell you that the Church’s ruling on Freemasonry is correct:

Q:“ What is the Catholic Church’s official position on Freemasonry? Are Catholics free to become Freemasons?

”A:
Freemasonry is incompatible with the Catholic faith. Freemasonry teaches a naturalistic religion that espouses indifferentism, the position that a person can be equally pleasing to God while remaining in any religion. …

…The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374).

Because the revised code of canon law is not explicit on this point, some drew the mistaken conclusion that the Church’s prohibition of Freemasonry had been dropped. As a result of this confusion, shortly before the 1983 code was promulgated, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a statement indicating that the penalty was still in force. This statement was dated November 26, 1983 and may be found in Origins 13/27 (Nov. 15, 1983), 450.

You can find the whole answer here if you are a true truth seeker.

Take care.

And also here

 

[Brian_H]

Hi Kinja, grave sin and excommunication are two different things. It is a grave sin to get drunk, are you suggesting that anyone that gets drunk is excommunicated? The CDF said it is a grave sin to belong to masonry. Furthermore, grave sin and mortal sin are two different things, grave sin is one of the three elements of mortal sin. Finally, the CDF’s statement was not a valid exercise of their power, it was an abuse of power. I’m suggesting that any position that is not made pursuant to the power given to the Church by Christ is not a valid exercise of power and can be disregarded because I am a “cafeteria” Catholic. I’ve pointed out before that the majority of American Catholics are “cafeteria” Catholics because they reject the Church’s teaching on stem cell research, birth control, abortion, ordination of women, divorce, or gay marriage. I looked at your link, I didn’t realize this forum had teaching authority.

Peace

 

[kinja]

If I may jump back into the discussion… If the Church teaches that a Catholic is excommunicated for engaging in an act or if one is not excommunicated but one is in grave sin for engaging in an act, in both cases the Church is saying a Catholic should not engage in that act, right? Examples would be engaging in premarital sex or joining the Freemasons. Therefore we should all agree that the Church says Catholics should not join the Freemasons. Right?

Exactly so. Notwithstanding that excommunication IS still in force for those Catholics who choose to join the Masons, if the Church frowns upon it then it is considered wrong anyway.

Brian,
You seem like a smart guy. Just follow the links we are posting. If you are right then the truth will be revealed anyway and you would have gotten confirmation. If you find you are wrong then you would only have gained more knowledge anyway. It’s a win win situation if you think about it.

 

[Brian_H]

And also here

Freemasons don’t conspire against the Church or the government, therefore Canon 1374 doesn’t apply, and even if it did excommunication is not the penalty established by the Canon. Only the CDF’s statement that membership is a grave sin is applicable.

 

[kinja]

Hi Kinja, grave sin and excommunication are two different things. It is a grave sin to get drunk, are you suggesting that anyone that gets drunk is excommunicated? The CDF said it is a grave sin to belong to masonry. Furthermore, grave sin and mortal sin are two different things, grave sin is one of the three elements of mortal sin. Finally, the CDF’s statement was not a valid exercise of their power, it was an abuse of power. I’m suggesting that any position that is not made pursuant to the power given to the Church by Christ is not a valid exercise of power and can be disregarded because I am a “cafeteria” Catholic.

If you did look at my link then why are you still speaking about grave sin. Cannon 2335 is explicit in it’s pronouncements on Freemasonry (Excommunication). Did you read this:

***The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374). ***

And this:

the declaration of 26 November 1983 explains, the omission of the name “Mason” in the present Church law is due to an “editorial criterion”. Masonic associations are thus included under a more general heading which could include any other association conspiring against the Church (e.g. a specific communist party).

Who are you to say what is or is not a valid exercise of the power of the CDF? Can you show me a source to back up your claims listing what the Church has authority over and what is does not?

I’ve pointed out before that the majority of American Catholics are “cafeteria” Catholics because they reject the Church’s teaching on stem cell research, birth control, abortion, ordination of women, divorce, or gay marriage. I looked at your link, I didn’t realize this forum had teaching authority.

What is your point in repeating this same piece of rhetoric over and over. So what if you and the gallop poll are right about those statistics? Does that mean that because the number of dissenters are large they must all be on the right track? All that saays is that we have alot of work to do for the Lord in bringing the awareness of the sanctity of life and the marriage convenant to the rest of the flock.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie and Kinja,

Kinja, you keep saying that Catholics that become masons are excommunicated, they are not, you are wrong, look at Canon 1374 and what then Cardinal Ratzinger said, they are in grave sin. I’m criticized for not understanding Church teaching, but apparently you don’t understand the difference between excommunication and grave sin. Second, the message of Jesus is in the Gospels, don’t be absurd, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit and the Canon of the New Testament was inspired by the Holy Spirit. We as a Church can’t take credit for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Finally, the masons don’t dislike the Papacy, however, it is clear that the Church is hostile towards masonry and this hostility is without justification.

Rinnie, I’ll try to reply to your last few posts. I feel that a Catholic can disregard exercises of power by the clergy which are beyond the power given to them by God. I was pointing out that Popes are sinners because they are capable of acting beyond their authority and abusing their power. I have cited historical facts to show that they have abused their power and been incorrect about matters of morals in the past. For example, myself, and the other “cafeteria” Catholics feel that it is an abuse of power for a member of the clergy to tell us who to vote for. Just as a hypothetical example, if Rick Perry is the republican nominee, Catholics would have to pick between a pro-choice candidate and a pro-life, anti-Catholic candidate. Is it worse to vote for Obama because he is pro-life? I don’t think so.
Freemasonry does not advocate one religion over another, as long as someone believes in God, they can be a member. When you think about this, keep in mind the historical context of masonry’s development. During the 16th-18th centuries Europe was plagued by religious wars and a huge amount of suffering. The Thirty Years War is one of the nastiest wars in all of human history. Look at what happened during the English Civil War. Freemasons wanted to find the common ground, a belief in God, rather than focusing on doctrinal differences and try to work together to have a positive impact.

Peace

And that is where you are in putting you self in a state of venial sin because you are bearing false witness against your neighbor are you not.

The POpe has never told us WHO we could or could not vote for.

The Pope said if you have a person running for president who is all for abortion and you are voing for him for that reason you are putting yourself in a state of mortal sin.

But if you vote for a him because of other issues, and not on the Abortion issue you have not put yourself in a state of sin.

On ths same token if you are voing on the ISSUE of Pro life or pro choice only, and you are a Roman Catholic you must choice life other death, because thats the teaching of Christ.

 

[Brian_H]

Hi Kinja, Canon 2335 is not in effect anymore, the entire 1917 Code of Canon Law is superseded by the 1983 Code. Furthermore, excommunication is not implicit in the 1983 Code or the CDF’s statement. Excommunication is not a penalty established by Canon 1374. I believe the statement you provided shows that who ever wrote it has a poor understanding of Canon Law. Again, Freemasons don’t conspire against the Church or the government, therefore Code 1374 does not apply.

“Who are you to say what is or is not a valid exercise of the power of the CDF? Can you show me a source to back up your claims listing what the Church has authority over and what is does not?”

I received the Holy Spirit at conformation. I can only point to when the Church has been wrong about a moral position in the past. Who is the CDF or any other member of the clergy to abuse their position?

“What is your point in repeating this same piece of rhetoric over and over. So what if you and the gallop poll are right about those statistics? Does that mean that because the number of dissenters are large they must all be on the right track?”

It doesn’t mean that either side is right, it does show what a big problem we have. I think love, compassion, forgiveness, and the themes of the sermon on the mount are the bedrock of what the Church should be. It seems to me that for 'traditional" Catholics, rules, obedience to superiors, and judgment are the core of the Church. This represents my sentiment, and I think it represents how other “cafeteria” Catholics feel as well.

Peace

 

[rinnie]

If I may jump back into the discussion… If the Church teaches that a Catholic is excommunicated for engaging in an act or if one is not excommunicated but one is in grave sin for engaging in an act, in both cases the Church is saying a Catholic should not engage in that act, right? Examples would be engaging in premarital sex or joining the Freemasons. Therefore we should all agree that the Church says Catholics should not join the Freemasons. Right?

Now lets teach what the Church really teaches and I am sure you will agree. If you are a Catholic and are in a state of Mortal sin you cannot receive Christ in the Eucharist until you confess that sin and become free from it.

So if you are engaging in sex before marriage and are in a state of Mortal sin you cannot receive the Eucharist, but you can STILL come to church. Same with the Masons. You can come to Church but not communion.

 

[Brian_H]

Hi Rinnie, I may have over simplified the position to try and demonstrate a point, but I didn’t bear false witness against anyone.

Peace

 

[kinja]

Freemasons don’t conspire against the Church or the government, therefore Canon 1374 doesn’t apply, and even if it did excommunication is not the penalty established by the Canon. Only the CDF’s statement that membership is a grave sin is applicable.

The Church said that Freemasonry was at the time conspiring against the Church. The Church still maintains Cannon 1374 in the new cannon and the position on Freemasonry has not changed neither, as far as I am aware, has the nature and objectives of Freemasonry changed. Cannon 1374 states that the penalty is interdict which IS EXCOMMUNICATION.

There are so many Catholic sources saying this same thing but you persist in promulgating the lie that the Church has not taken a position and made a judgement which is documented: The Church considers Freemasonry to be an institution that plots against the Church. And any Catholic joining is in a state of grave sin and is under penalty of an interdict (excommunication).

You in your “wisdom” have decided that the Pope is wrong but that the Church is not against Freemasonry and at the same time the Papacy is acting outside of its authority in making pronouncements on an organisation that it does not condemn?

You are confused and confusing those who come to this forum for sound knowledge. Your position (on the Pope’s authority, cannon 2335 and cannon 1374, the Church) cannot be backed up with any sources but remains your unsubstantiated opinion.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Kinja, Canon 2335 is not in effect anymore, the entire 1917 Code of Canon Law is superseded by the 1983 Code. Furthermore, excommunication is not implicit in the 1983 Code or the CDF’s statement. Excommunication is not a penalty established by Canon 1374. I believe the statement you provided shows that who ever wrote it has a poor understanding of Canon Law. Again, Freemasons don’t conspire against the Church or the government, therefore Code 1374 does not apply.

“Who are you to say what is or is not a valid exercise of the power of the CDF? Can you show me a source to back up your claims listing what the Church has authority over and what is does not?”

I received the Holy Spirit at conformation. I can only point to when the Church has been wrong about a moral position in the past. Who is the CDF or any other member of the clergy to abuse their position?

“What is your point in repeating this same piece of rhetoric over and over. So what if you and the gallop poll are right about those statistics? Does that mean that because the number of dissenters are large they must all be on the right track?”

It doesn’t mean that either side is right, it does show what a big problem we have. I think love, compassion, forgiveness, and the themes of the sermon on the mount are the bedrock of what the Church should be. It seems to me that for 'traditional" Catholics, rules, obedience to superiors, and judgment are the core of the Church. This represents my sentiment, and I think it represents how other “cafeteria” Catholics feel as well.

Peace

I can show you Brian, and I have continued to show you. YOU are Peter and to you I give the keys to the kingdom what you bound on earth is bound in heaven and what you loose is loose.

You said that yes Peter had the keys but now he is gone, you are wrong. Jesus gave Peter the authority to bind and loose, when he dies the keys are passed ON. That had been the way of the Church from the beginning of time.

GO read it brian. go see where the keys to the kingdom were passed from Peter on to the next Pope. Its all there.

 

[regression]

Now lets teach what the Church really teaches and I am sure you will agree. If you are a Catholic and are in a state of Mortal sin you cannot receive Christ in the Eucharist until you confess that sin and become free from it.

So if you are engaging in sex before marriage and are in a state of Mortal sin you cannot receive the Eucharist, but you can STILL come to church. Same with the Masons. You can come to Church but not communion.

Yep, I agree.

 

[Brian_H]

Hi Kinja, there is no evidence of Freemasonry ever conspiring against the Church, except for the Church saying so, that is not evidence anymore than the rubbish in a Chick Track is evidence against the Church. Interdict only applies to those that lead an organization that conspires against the Church or government. Canon 1374 is the new (1983 Code) Canon, Canon 2335 is the old one that is no longer in effect. The only prohibition against masonic membership is the declaration from the CDF in 1983, which states membership is a grave sin. I really think you should spend some time studying jurisprudence and Canon Law before you comment on this anymore, as someone that has, it is clear that you don’t understand some very fundamental concepts of jurisprudence or Canon Law, one example being that you think the 1917 Code is still in effect in spite of the fact that it was superseded by the 1983 Code. Because of your lack of understanding of jurisprudence and Canon Law you resort to personal attacks against me because, apparently the arguments are over your head or beyond your comprehension, no offense.

Peace

 

[rinnie]

The Church said that Freemasonry was at the time conspiring against the Church. The Church still maintains Cannon 1374 in the new cannon and the position on Freemasonry has not changed neither, as far as I am aware, has the nature and objectives of Freemasonry changed. Cannon 1374 states that the penalty is interdict which IS EXCOMMUNICATION.

There are so many Catholic sources saying this same thing but you persist in promulgating the lie that the Church has not taken a position and made a judgement which is documented: The Church considers Freemasonry to be an institution that plots against the Church. And any Catholic joining is in a state of grave sin and is under penalty of an interdict (excommunication).

You in your “wisdom” have decided that the Pope is wrong but that the Church is not against Freemasonry and at the same time the Papacy is acting outside of its authority in making pronouncements on an organisation that it does not condemn?

You are confused and confusing those who come to this forum for sound knowledge. Your position (on the Pope’s authority, cannon 2335 and cannon 1374, the Church) cannot be backed up with any sources but remains your unsubstantiated opinion.

Brian where is your authority to judge the Church? Where did you get your authority to speak in the name of God for truth and morals.

The Pope has the authority given to him by the passing of the keys. Where is your authority to judge the CHurch and teach in the name of Christ.

The Pope has this Power given to him by the last Pope. etc in succession of Peter. He can prove his authority as I showed you look it up. HE SAID NO.

Now please show me where you were given the power of the Holy Spirit with the succession of the keys, and the Power of the Holy Spirit by the lay of Hands directly linked to the APostles. When you can, I will listen to you also/

The bible itself said stick to the Early teachings of the Church, and stay away from strange doctrines. etc/

Making an oath to believe In God or A HIGHER BEING. Come on. How much stranger does it get.

You answer my question how is there a higher being then Jesus Christ the Only Son of God. Jesus told you My Father and I are ONE.

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie, I may have over simplified the position to try and demonstrate a point, but I didn’t bear false witness against anyone.

Peace

Well you are saying the Pope has no right to speak for Christ and his Church, that is more then oversimplying things. I believe you did not mean what you said, that is why I said it is venial sin.

But if you do mean that the Pope has no right to teach us on matters of faith and morals its actuall MORTAL SIN.

 

[rinnie]

Brian, Christ said his church would be the light of the world. I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not destroy. Matt 16:18

Do the history brian the CC is the only Church that has existed SINCE the time of Christ.

Brian the CHURCH is APOSTOLIC. Eph. 2:19-20 ccc 857-865 It was founded by Jesus and he appointed the Apostles to be the FIRST leaders and the SUCCESSORS were to be it future leaders. Read the bible brian. He told tim. hang on to traditons word or written 2 tim 2:2.

The structure of the Church. Jesus apointed leaders he gave them authority to teach and govern Cor 4:15

Jesus told his Apostels and their successors HE who listens to you listens to me, he who rejects YOU REJECT ME. Luke 10:16

My friend please learn your faith.

 

[rinnie]

Yep, I agree.

Do you see this Brian. perfect example. We all make mistakes at times but when we are corrected by our brothers and sisters we do not argue, we Obey!!

 

[Brian_H]

Hi Rinnie, I’ll try to respond to your recent posts. I received the Holy Spirit at Conformation. The Church does exercise authentic teaching authority when it acts pursuant to the power given to it by Christ, when it exceeds that authority it is abusing its power. For example, who was Pope Innocent III to order that the Cathars be murdered for their heresy when they refused to be corrected? Who is any member of the clergy, after they have taken either a vow of simplicity or poverty, to live in a palace filled with art treasures? Surely any member of the clergy that lives in a palace with over 10,000 rooms, filled with art treasures AND maintains a sprawling country villa has missed the message of Jesus by a country mile.

And I don’t feel that a message of tolerance is a strange doctrine. Jesus said to love one another, not love one another, but only if they agree with you about everything.

One more thing, when someone tells me do what I tell you or you are in mortal sin and you are going to hell and I can only think of when Jesus said judge not lest ye be judged. You see, Jesus and his message are the foundation of my faith.

Peace

 

[rinnie]

Hi Rinnie, I’ll try to respond to your recent posts. I received the Holy Spirit at Conformation. The Church does exercise authentic teaching authority when it acts pursuant to the power given to it by Christ, when it exceeds that authority it is abusing its power. For example, who was Pope Innocent III to order that the Cathars be murdered for their heresy when they refused to be corrected? Who is any member of the clergy, after they have taken either a vow of simplicity or poverty, to live in a palace filled with art treasures? Surely any member of the clergy that lives in a palace with over 10,000 rooms, filled with art treasures AND maintains a sprawling country villa has missed the message of Jesus by a country mile.

And I don’t feel that a message of tolerance is a strange doctrine. Jesus said to love one another, not love one another, but only if they agree with you about everything.

One more thing, when someone tells me do what I tell you or you are in mortal sin and you are going to hell and I can only think of when Jesus said judge not lest ye be judged. You see, Jesus and his message are the foundation of my faith.

Peace

See just like you are accusing Christ and his Church for mistakes made in the past. Many Popes have made mistakes and many religions have killed at the expense of the Church.

The Pope never said you are going to hell. he said that if you join this organization you are putting yourself in GRAVE danger. Which means a state of Mortal sin. It is up for you to repent and ask GOd to forgive you or not.

What you are saying makes no sense. you are again bringing down the sins of the Pope at the feet of Christ. So then because Judas betrayed Jesus then all he taught in the name of Jesus is false also then?

Don’t bring the sins of a Pope and set them at the feet of Christ. When you blame the Church for the mistakes made by a Priest or Pope that is what you are doing.

He never condemned you to hell. you keep putting words in his mouth, and I am trying to bring this to your attention.