Condemned before or after hearing the gospel of Christ?

[Reformed]

Condemned to what? The only thing you can possibly mean is condemned to hell. If this is true, then every unborn child is condemned to hell according to you. Every person in history before the gospel was revealed is condemned to hell according to you. And you are wrong in your final sentence. A sinner can very well be condemned after hearing the gospel, particularly if he rejects it.

Okay, then concede that every newborn child is condemned to hell because they haven’t heard the Gospel. Concede all of the above as well. Hearing the Gospel is not the same thing as accepting the Gospel in any case. You can hear the Gospel and be condemned if you reject it.

No one can be saved apart from faith in Christ, but that faith is not required to be explicit in the way you demand. If you had the guidance of the apostolic churches you would know that. The pre-Christian church could never have explicit faith in Christ that was available after the new covenant. Nevertheless, salvation of the old covenant believers must be seen in view of the merits of Christ.

There is no quote in the Catholic catechism that states someone can be saved apart from faith in Christ. You assume that because someone is a practicing Hindu etc. that he must have no faith in Christ whatsoever, even implicitly. This is not necessarily the case. If you think that it is, then swallow the reductio and admit that unborn children, infants, those who have never been preached the gospel, and everybody who existed prior to the Incarnation are damned to hell.

Ohh… I never stated that all infants that die go to Hell. Please go to the thread someone created in regards to infants. My answer to infants who die is on post 32 and 53.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=68587

Actually, I believe all Old Testament saints were saved by the person and work of Jesus Christ that was applied to them prior to the cross.

It also seems that you think condemnation is not a biblical doctrine.

Romans 8

8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. - Rom 8

 

[Reformed]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

1260 “Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
**
Holy Scriptures**
Rom 1
The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, [5] as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” [6]

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Rom 2

God’s Judgment and the Law
12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

17 But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24 For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

 

[Reformed]

HOLY SCRIPTURE

Rom 3

No One Is Righteous
9 What then? Are we Jews [1] any better off? [2] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being [3] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

 

[cfrancis]

Actually, I believe all Old Testament saints were saved by the person and work of Jesus Christ that was applied to them prior to the cross.

Anyone else notice the irony of Reformed’s statement? This answer sounds familiar, though the question is different!

 

[cfrancis]

HOLY SCRIPTURE

Rom 3

No One Is Righteous
9 What then? Are we Jews [1] any better off? [2] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being [3] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Please, don’t stop there!
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God "
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.
4 Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
Who eat up **my people **as they eat bread,
And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,
But the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores His captive people,
Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.

1 Give ear to my words, O LORD,
Consider my groaning.
2 Heed the sound of my cry for help, my King and my God,
For to You I pray.
3 In the morning, O LORD, You will hear my voice;
In the morning I will order my prayer to You and eagerly watch.
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness;
No evil dwells with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.
6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.
7 But as for me, by Your abundant lovingkindness I will enter Your house,
At Your holy temple I will bow in reverence for You.
**8 O LORD, lead me in Your righteousness because of my foes;
Make Your way straight before me. ** 9 There is nothing reliable in what they say;
Their inward part is destruction itself
Their throat is an open grave;
They flatter with their tongue.
10 Hold them guilty, O God;
By their own devices let them fall!
In the multitude of their transgressions thrust them out,
For they are rebellious against You.
**11 But let all who take refuge in You be glad,
Let them ever sing for joy;
And may You shelter them,
That those who love Your name may exult in You.
12 For it is You who blesses the righteous man, O LORD,
You surround him with favor as with a shield. **

 

[Reformed]

Anyone else notice the irony of Reformed’s statement? This answer sounds familiar, though the question is different!

I’m just responding to a Catholic poster in regards to infants and old testament saints. Since you mentioned it, how do you think Old Testament believers were saved, through personal righteousness of the righteousness provided from above through Christ?

Do you see the apparent conflict between Sacred Tradition and the Scriptures on the issue on salvation without faith in Christ in this NT dispensation?

 

[cfrancis]

I’m just responding to a Catholic poster in regards to infants and old testament saints. Since you mentioned it, how do you think Old Testament believers were saved, through personal righteousness of the righteousness provided from above through Christ?

Do you see the apparent conflict between Sacred Tradition and the Scriptures on the issue on salvation without faith in Christ in this NT dispensation?

I have no issue with your answer, just the irony that such an answer came from you.
To be clear, for my understanding, do you believe the saving power of Christ’s passion, death and resurrection can be applied prior to the actual event?

 

[cfrancis]

Thank you for the answer brother. This came up on another thread and a Catholic brother posted that people are condemned when they reject Christ and not before. I think he quoted the Catholic Catechism about people being saved apart from Christ. If you know the reference in the Catechism, could you please post it?

We cannot change the greatest good news of God into bad accountable news. Christ came to rescue us from our condemned condition for our sins and rebellion against Him.

I suppose context is in order here. The following will help all understand the real issue that was presented:

According to the Catholic Catechism, what happens to the Hindu, Muslum, and other non-Christian who worships god?

If they have rejected Christ, they go to Hell.

If they are simply unaware of the Christian message, but their minds and hearts are such (as known only to God) that they would flock to Christ if they knew of Him and His necessity, then we hope that God will save them by His own means, since He is both just and merciful.

**In no case is anyone actually saved by the beliefs or practices of another religion, but it is possible that some might be saved in spite of such beliefs and practices, through God’s grace won for us by Christ on the cross **(even if they do not know of Him by name).

Usagi

Do you understand how unbiblical this position is. If I understand the Roman Catholic position, you are changing the great good news of God (gospel of God’s grace) into terrible bad condemning news. Are you saying that a sinner becomes accountable and condemned once they are preached the good news and reject it? Do you see what happens when you leave Sola Scriptura, because the gospel changes from great news to accountable condemning news. Please correct my understanding if I am wrong. My Scriptural proof is Roman chapter 1, chapter 2, and John 3. I’ll let you guys study the issues before I share what Scripture reveals on this important issue. Your last paragraph is my hope for the remnant within the Roman Catholic Church.

If a sinner hears the Gospel and rejects it, what do you believe happens to that sinner?

Please note, the question I asked was in reference to the highlighted question by Reformed; and still, Reformed has refused to answer the simple question posed to him.
Instead, he chose to alter the issue to meet his agenda.

 

[cfrancis]

In the interest of full disclosure…

389 The doctrine of original sin is, so to speak, the “reverse side” of the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all men, that all need salvation and that salvation is offered to all through Christ. The Church, which has the mind of Christ,263 knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.

1. WHY DID THE WORD BECOME FLESH?

456 With the Nicene Creed, we answer by confessing: “For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit, he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man.”

457 **The Word became flesh for us in order to save us by reconciling us with God, who “loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins”: “the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world”, and “he was revealed to take away sins”:**70

*Sick, our nature demanded to be healed; fallen, to be raised up; dead, to rise again. We had lost the possession of the good; it was necessary for it to be given back to us. Closed in the darkness, it was necessary to bring us the light; captives, we awaited a Savior; prisoners, help; slaves, a liberator. Are these things minor or insignificant? Did they not move God to descend to human nature and visit it, since humanity was in so miserable and unhappy a state?*71

620 Our salvation flows from God’s initiative of love for us, because “he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (I Jn 4:10). “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).

 

[Reformed]

I suppose context is in order here. The following will help all understand the real issue that was presented:

Please note, the question I asked was in reference to the highlighted question by Reformed; and still, Reformed has refused to answer the simple question posed to him.
Instead, he chose to alter the issue to meet his agenda.

Originally Posted by cfrancis
If a sinner hears the Gospel and rejects it, what do you believe happens to that sinner?

When a sinner hears the gospel and rejects it, he is still condemned and under the wrath of God. He is still united to Adam and still dead in His sins and trespasses. He is still in a similar rebellious status before God as judge as someone who never heard the gospel. There tends to be greater punishment for those who hear and reject, than those who don’t hear and perish without Christ. However, both remain under the wrath of God. We all enter this world as sinners under the wrath of God, heading for judgement and eternal seperation from God until God rescues us from our condemned condition through hearing the gospel and receving it through the Spirit. What is your answer to your question? Do you see it differently?

John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. - Rom 10

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” - John 3

 

[Tomster]

Are we condemned before or after we hear the gospel of Jesus Christ? This is a very significant question since I believe Christ came to save sinners and He did not come to condemn us. I believe the answer can be found in the Gospel of John, chapter 3. The Catholic Cathechism which is part of Sacred Tradition can also answer this same basic essential question.

Are we condemned before or after hearing the gospel of God’s grace?

The term “to judge” has, in New Testament language, generally the unfavorable sense of judgement for condemnation, though the word “judge” as substantive stands for God in his office, both as the rewarder of merit and avenger of sin. So our Lord says: “He that believes in him (Christ) is not judged. But he that does not believe is already judged: because he believes not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgement: Because the light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than the light. For their works were evil.” (John 3:18-19).

continued

 

[Tomster]

With this divine utterance we approach the dreadful subject of man’s condemnation to eternal reprobation after death. In reprobation, as in election, there are two elements which must be kept apart in our consideration of the subject: man is admitted into the society of the elect because he dies in the state of grace, but he also receives a higher or lower degree of eternal life according as his merits are great or small. So, on the other hand, man is cast into eternal death because temporal death found him in the state of mortal sin, but his degree of punishment will depend on the amount of evil which he did in life and which had not been forgiven. In very exact theology we should say that man is admitted into eternal life or is cast away, not by a judgement that takes place over him after the separation of the soul from the body, but by that judgement through which God decided that death should overtake the holy one in a state of grace, while, through the permissive will of the divine justice, death was allowed to come to the sinner when he was in the state of mortal sin. Theologians would not be unwilling to say that there is no real pronouncement of sentence, either of eternal life or of eternal death, these great issues following naturally, as it were, from the state of the soul at the moment of death. In this matter we have our Lord’s own words in the verse quoted above: "He that believes in him is not judged. But he that does not believe is already judged: because he does not believe in the name of the Son of God. And this is the judgement . . . " (John 3:18-19) But we may, of course, take the less technical view and say that souls are condemned or are exalted by a just judgement of God when they enter eternity. We certainly cannot get away from a definite act of God which settles forever man’s fate by putting an end to the period of mutability and change.

 

[Reformed]

With this divine utterance we approach the dreadful subject of man’s condemnation to eternal reprobation after death. In reprobation, as in election, there are two elements which must be kept apart in our consideration of the subject: man is admitted into the society of the elect because he dies in the state of grace, but he also receives a higher or lower degree of eternal life according as his merits are great or small. So, on the other hand, man is cast into eternal death because temporal death found him in the state of mortal sin, but his degree of punishment will depend on the amount of evil which he did in life and which had not been forgiven. In very exact theology we should say that man is admitted into eternal life or is cast away, not by a judgement that takes place over him after the separation of the soul from the body, but by that judgement through which God decided that death should overtake the holy one in a state of grace, while, through the permissive will of the divine justice, death was allowed to come to the sinner when he was in the state of mortal sin. Theologians would not be unwilling to say that there is no real pronouncement of sentence, either of eternal life or of eternal death, these great issues following naturally, as it were, from the state of the soul at the moment of death. In this matter we have our Lord’s own words in the verse quoted above: "He that believes in him is not judged. But he that does not believe is already judged: because he does not believe in the name of the Son of God. And this is the judgement . . . " (John 3:18-19) But we may, of course, take the less technical view and say that souls are condemned or are exalted by a just judgement of God when they enter eternity. We certainly cannot get away from a definite act of God which settles forever man’s fate by putting an end to the period of mutability and change.

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to this thread. It is a very difficult question that should drive us to the very heart of Christianity…Christ and Him crucified for sinners. So, are you a seminary student? I will need to study and meditate what you have written again when I have time to think deeper in what you said. I do approach my conclusion with the doctrine of election and predestination according to the Scriptures. God will bring a missionary or any Christian to an elect of God to hear and receive the gospel. If God predetermined the end, He will provide the means to accomplish His predetermine end. God chose the foolishness of preaching the gospel to bring about the end for rescuing, redeeming, adopting, a group of sinners…to the praise of His glorious grace. Could you please answer the OP question of:

Are we condemned before or after hearing the gospel of God’s grace?

 

[Tomster]

Thank you for your thoughtful contribution to this thread. It is a very difficult question that should drive us to the very heart of Christianity…Christ and Him crucified for sinners. So, are you a seminary student? I will need to study and meditate what you have written again when I have time to think deeper in what you said. I do approach my conclusion with the doctrine of election and predestination according to the Scriptures. God will bring a missionary or any Christian to an elect of God to hear and receive the gospel. If God predetermined the end, He will provide the means to accomplish His predetermine end. God chose the foolishness of preaching the gospel to bring about the end for rescuing, redeeming, adopting, a group of sinners…to the praise of His glorious grace. Could you please answer the OP question of:

Are we condemned before or after hearing the gospel of God’s grace?

I just did. Please think about it for awhile.

 

[sambos671]

It seems that condemnation is the first state of man that man stands condemned. Christ came to save men from that state and offer a new one. When presented with the gospel and rejection of it occures you are still in your original state.

 

[Reformed]

I just did. Please think about it for awhile.

I’m not sure what your conclusion is after reading it again. Check out my new signature and consider answering with a simple yes or no to the question of:

Are we condemned before or after hearing the gospel of Christ?

 

[cfrancis]

I’m not sure what your conclusion is after reading it again. Check out my new signature and consider answering with a simple yes or no to the question of:

Are we condemned before or after hearing the gospel of Christ?

Further irony about this thread: on the macro- level, Reformed agrees with the Catholic Church: no one enters eternal life with God without going through Jesus Christ.

The issue is on the micro- level: how and when does one come to know and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior.

 

[Tomster]

I’m not sure what your conclusion is after reading it again. Check out my new signature and consider answering with a simple yes or no to the question of:

Are we condemned before or after hearing the gospel of Christ?

Maybe you need more time. (Hint: Remember that you’re not saved until God says your saved. And that happens the split second after you kick the bucket. Haven’t we been through this before?)

 

[sambos671]

I’m not sure what your conclusion is after reading it again. Check out my new signature and consider answering with a simple yes or no to the question of:

Are we condemned before or after hearing the gospel of Christ?

I just stated it.

 

[reteeks21]

Ok the original sin bit I get now, I think. But are you saying, that after hearing the Gospel of Jesus, and being made aware of the need to proclaim Jesus as my Lord and Saviour, I do so, so I’m saved, because I have heard the Gospel - even if I then continue to live an immoral and unaccountable life, the only difference being I have heard the Gospel and believe now in God???

I get that believing in God will affect how I live my life, but what if I fall back into my old ways, I’ve still heard the Gospel at that stage, am I still saved?

Again, your patience is appreciated if my questions are irritating - I’m asking honestly and openly seeking knowledge.

Just perusing the thread (good, spirited one, by the way) and saw your excellent questions. Your willingness to ask questions amidst the arguing is commendable.

No, this isn’t a clever try to get someone to be a Protestant. I don’t care which river you swim! Just find one to swim!