Condemned before or after hearing the gospel of Christ?

[Reformed]

Originally Posted by Reformed
Elect infants who die in infancy will be in Heaven because the Spirit applies the work of Christ on the elect infant’s behalf before he dies.

Could the same not apply to elect adults who die without having heard the Gospel?

Usagi

No, because Romans chapter 1 reveals that all are without excuse by what God has made. General or natural revelation is universal revelation that cannot save sinners. General revelation actual condemns and leaves all men without excuse. The includes all who have not heard the gospel. If you don’t think this is fair, then why don’t you ask God for fairness, and he might actually give you what you deserve.

God’s Wrath Against Mankind - Romans 1

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[Reformed]

That’s pretty comprehensive and logical - I’m going to snag it

I would suggest that your read the Bible first before reading other books. Start with the gospel of Mark, gospel of John, 1 John, Acts, Colosians, Galatians, Ephesians and let’s talk.

Did you finish 1 John?

 

[Ag_not]

Did you finish 1 John?

I did - well I read it, or tried to, I would’nt pretend I understood it all.

 

[Reformed]

I did - well I read it, or tried to, I would’nt pretend I understood it all.

Could you please read the gospel of Mark next?

 

[tdgesq]

I don’t believe in the age of accountability.

Well good for you. How about we treat the question that you brought up in the OP, “condemned before or after hearing the gospel of Christ?” Strange that you now seem averse to discussing the topic in the thread you started.

If a Christian believed in the age of accountability, they should take out their kids out of this world before they reach that apparent age of accountability. Now, that we be an act of love since eternity is forever.

You mean they should kill their kids. Just speak plainly. Those who did what you suggest would likely be condemned in the RC view of things. Not so with the Reformed Presbyterians though. A person is elect or is not from the very beginning of time. Why not put the ax to all newborn infants from a reformed standpoint? After all, they are already predestined to hell or to glory. And it cannot matter what their parents do, they are also similarly predestined. Doesn’t your murderous suggestion apply much more forcefully to Reformed Presbyterians than it does to Catholics?

 

[Reformed]

Well good for you. How about we treat the question that you brought up in the OP, “condemned before or after hearing the gospel of Christ?” Strange that you now seem averse to discussing the topic in the thread you started

.

Yep, these threads tend to go way off the OP. Let’s go back to the OP.

Are we condemned before or after we hear the gospel of Jesus Christ? This is a very significant question since I believe Christ came to save sinners and He did not come to condemn us. I believe the answer can be found in the Gospel of John, chapter 3. The Catholic Catechism which is part of Sacred Tradition can also answer this same basic essential question.

My answer is yes, we are all condemned before hearing the gospel of God’s grace. I posted scripture to show that all mankind are condemned in Adam as well as personal sins prior to hearing the great good news of God (gospel). Christ came to rescue us from our already condemned condition, and He did not come to condemn us because we were already condemned before His incarnation.

What is your answer again, I think I forgot.

Are we condemned before of after hearing the gospel of God’s grace?

 

[Ag_not]

I’ve been dipping into the Cathecism of the Catholic Church (wow it’s a big book !!) - from what I’ve read, it seems the catholic churches position is that one does indeed need to be baptised in order to be sure of salvation, HOWEVER, it also seems to suggest that if one has not had an opportunity to hear the Gospel or be exposed to the Catholic church but one lives ones life in all good conscience and following a ‘‘natural law’’ of what is right and wrong (on the basis we all have it inside us to know, based on a type of natural law, what is good and bad, right and wrong, as we are ALL born with a conscience) then the suggestion seems to be that in all likelihood these people can also be saved, although they are not basptised, AND YET when it comes to the death of children, who have not yet reached an age of accountability, and die unbaptised, the cathecism is much less sure, and seems to be suggesting the best we can do is HOPE in God’s mercy for them.

This seems odd to me - I would have thought that a babe in arms, baptised or not, would almost certainly be assured of a placce in heaven, due to God’s love for his creation and most particulary innocent children.

This is all very interesting stuff.

 

[sambos671]

I’ve been dipping into the Cathecism of the Catholic Church (wow it’s a big book !!) - from what I’ve read, it seems the catholic churches position is that one does indeed need to be baptised in order to be sure of salvation, HOWEVER, it also seems to suggest that if one has not had an opportunity to hear the Gospel or be exposed to the Catholic church but one lives ones life in all good conscience and following a ‘‘natural law’’ of what is right and wrong (on the basis we all have it inside us to know, based on a type of natural law, what is good and bad, right and wrong, as we are ALL born with a conscience) then the suggestion seems to be that in all likelihood these people can also be saved, although they are not basptised, AND YET when it comes to the death of children, who have not yet reached an age of accountability, and die unbaptised, the cathecism is much less sure, and seems to be suggesting the best we can do is HOPE in God’s mercy for them.

This seems odd to me - I would have thought that a babe in arms, baptised or not, would almost certainly be assured of a placce in heaven, due to God’s love for his creation and most particulary innocent children.

This is all very interesting stuff.

I think you need to look at this point from a covenant point of view.l

 

[Ag_not]

I think you need to look at this point from a covenant point of view.l

Ok. I will. Soon as I work out exactly what you mean. Covenant means

 

[sambos671]

Ok. I will. Soon as I work out exactly what you mean. Covenant means

I’m sorry I meant from a covenant theology perspective I assume people know what I’m talking about.

ie. God made a covenant with Noah thus the rainbow. God made a Covenant with Abraham and set certain requirements primarily circumsition. God Made a covenant with Moses and the Jewish people and established the Law God made a covenant with Mankind through Jesus Christ and established salvation and the sacraments.

 

[Ag_not]

I’m sorry I meant from a covenant theology perspective I assume people know what I’m talking about.

Normal people may well do, but I’m the kid at the back of the track shouting what way did they go???

ie. God made a covenant with Noah thus the rainbow. God made a Covenant with Abraham and set certain requirements primarily circumsition. God Made a covenant with Moses and the Jewish people and established the Law God made a covenant with Mankind through Jesus Christ and established salvation and the sacraments.

I need to do more reading thanks.

 

[Reformed]

I’m sorry I meant from a covenant theology perspective I assume people know what I’m talking about.

ie. God made a covenant with Noah thus the rainbow. God made a Covenant with Abraham and set certain requirements primarily circumsition. God Made a covenant with Moses and the Jewish people and established the Law God made a covenant with Mankind through Jesus Christ and established salvation and the sacraments.

I’ve seen seminary students at Westminster West seminary struggle to understand what is the covenant or covenant theology. I’m not sure that Reformed believers agree exactly on the meaning of covenat theology. Do you mind sharing your understanding of the covenant pertaining to the cross?

 

[sambos671]

I’ve seen seminary students at Westminster West seminary struggle to understand what is the covenant or covenant theology. I’m not sure that Reformed believers agree exactly on the meaning of covenat theology. Do you mind sharing your understanding of the covenant pertaining to the cross?

What are you looking for specifically? How covenant theology and the Cross relate to each other?

 

[Reformed]

What are you looking for specifically? How covenant theology and the Cross relate to each other?

Just your understanding of the covenant and maybe how it relates to the cross, and maybe the elect. I’m not sure the covenant was taught much when I attended Reformed Churches. The pastors tried to stay focused on the gospel. The pastors were either Westminster professors or Westminster seminary graduates.

 

[sambos671]

Just your understanding of the covenant and maybe how it relates to the cross, and maybe the elect. I’m not sure the covenant was taught much when I attended Reformed Churches. The pastors tried to stay focused on the gospel. The pastors were either Westminster professors or Westminster seminary graduates.

I have never been a seminarian though I do hold a graduate degree in business. So, I’m not sure if I can really help you. However, I believe that God through his grace has elected those who will be saved then he ministers to them by the Holy Spirit and grants them Faith which the only resonable responce to the faith is acceptance and reseption of that faith which then is enacted in a faithful life by the grace of God culminating in gaining of the reward of heaven. The cross is Gods work and provides just fulfillment of law allowing for attonment for our sin nature and our sins wereby we are forgiven and are brought into his family through baptism. I may not have gotten that perfect but that is how I understand things.

 

[Ag_not]

I have never been a seminarian though I do hold a graduate degree in business. So, I’m not sure if I can really help you. However, I believe that God through his grace has elected those who will be saved then he ministers to them by the Holy Spirit and grants them Faith which the only resonable responce to the faith is acceptance and reseption of that faith which then is enacted in a faithful life by the grace of God culminating in gaining of the reward of heaven. The cross is Gods work and provides just fulfillment of law allowing for attonment for our sin nature and our sins wereby we are forgiven and are brought into his family through baptism. I may not have gotten that perfect but that is how I understand things.

Are you saying then that there is indeed an elect, and they will hear the gospel and respond because that is what God has ordained, but there are others that will not - as God as not ordained that they will be saved and thus not part of the elect? Wouldn’t that mean that God allows people to be born that have no chance of being saved? I understood that salvation is open to all - that Christ died for the salvation of all sinners. Or as is very likely have I read you wrongly?

 

[sambos671]

Are you saying then that there is indeed an elect, and they will hear the gospel and respond because that is what God has ordained, but there are others that will not - as God as not ordained that they will be saved and thus not part of the elect? Wouldn’t that mean that God allows people to be born that have no chance of being saved? I understood that salvation is open to all - that Christ died for the salvation of all sinners. Or as is very likely have I read you wrongly?

Don’t confuse me with a calvinist. Let me explain it this way:

27 The desire for God is written in the human heart, because man is created by God and for God; and God never ceases to draw man to himself. Only in God will he find the truth and happiness he never stops searching for:

The dignity of man rests above all on the fact that he is called to communion with God. This invitation to converse with God is addressed to man as soon as he comes into being. For if man exists it is because God has created him through love, and through love continues to hold him in existence. He cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and entrusts himself to his creator.[1] …153 When St. Peter confessed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, Jesus declared to him that this revelation did not come “from flesh and blood”, but from “my Father who is in heaven”.[24] Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. “Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.’”[25] …166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone.
You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbour impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

 

[Ag_not]

Thanks. That’s a little clearer.

 

[sambos671]

I think this give a pretty good view of covenant perspective regarding divine revalation and Jesus Christ.

After the unity of the human race was shattered by sin God at once sought to save humanity part by part. The covenant with Noah after the flood gives expression to the principle of the divine economy toward the “nations”, in other words, towards men grouped “in their lands, each with [its] own language, by their families, in their nations”.9

57 This state of division into many nations is at once cosmic, social and religious. It is intended to limit the pride of fallen humanity10 united only in its perverse ambition to forge its own unity as at Babel.11 But, because of sin, both polytheism and the idolatry of the nation and of its rulers constantly threaten this provisional economy with the perversion of paganism.12

58 The covenant with Noah remains in force during the times of the Gentiles, until the universal proclamation of the Gospel.13 The Bible venerates several great figures among the Gentiles: Abel the just, the king-priest Melchisedek - a figure of Christ - and the upright “Noah, Daniel, and Job”.14 Scripture thus expresses the heights of sanctity that can be reached by those who live according to the covenant of Noah, waiting for Christ to “gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad”.15

God chooses Abraham

59 In order to gather together scattered humanity God calls Abram from his country, his kindred and his father’s house,16 and makes him Abraham, that is, “the father of a multitude of nations”. "In you all the nations of the earth shall be blessed."17

60 The people descended from Abraham would be the trustee of the promise made to the patriarchs, the chosen people, called to prepare for that day when God would gather all his children into the unity of the Church.18 They would be the root on to which the Gentiles would be grafted, once they came to believe.19

61 The patriarchs, prophets and certain other Old Testament figures have been and always will be honored as saints in all the Church’s liturgical traditions.

God forms his people Israel

62 After the patriarchs, God formed Israel as his people by freeing them from slavery in Egypt. He established with them the covenant of Mount Sinai and, through Moses, gave them his law so that they would recognize him and serve him as the one living and true God, the provident Father and just judge, and so that they would look for the promised Savior.20

63 Israel is the priestly people of God, “called by the name of the LORD”, and “the first to hear the word of God”,21 the people of “elder brethren” in the faith of Abraham.

64 Through the prophets, God forms his people in the hope of salvation, in the expectation of a new and everlasting Covenant intended for all, to be written on their hearts.22 The prophets proclaim a radical redemption of the People of God, purification from all their infidelities, a salvation which will include all the nations.23
God has said everything in his Word
In giving us his Son, his only Word (for he possesses no other), he spoke everything to us at once in this sole Word - and he has no more to say. . . because what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son. Any person questioning God or desiring some vision or revelation would be guilty not only of foolish behavior but also of offending him, by not fixing his eyes entirely upon Christ and by living with the desire for some other novelty.27
There will be no further Revelation

 

[peary]

Are we condemned before or after we hear the gospel of Jesus Christ? This is a very significant question since I believe Christ came to save sinners and He did not come to condemn us. I believe the answer can be found in the Gospel of John, chapter 3. The Catholic Cathechism which is part of Sacred Tradition can also answer this same basic essential question.

Are we condemned before or after hearing the gospel of God’s grace?

First of all, FAITH is a gift from God. One cannot ‘get’ Faith or ‘do’ Faith. It is a gift of grace. Sometimes a person can hear the word of God over and over and not understand it. However, one day, he or she finally gets an “ah-hah!” Once we reach this point, we are to do what we can for our sanctification with God’s help. Actually, none of us will know whether we are condemned or not (whether we hear the word of God or not) until the moment of death.