Confederate flag/American flag

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Most folks would probably agree that the confederate flag symbolizes (among potentially other things) slavery. And, out of respect and love for our black brothers and sisters, I think most folks would also support the movement to remove this flag from public display such as at the South Carolina state capitol.

What would you say if American Indians started a protest about the American flag? That every time they saw the flag, they were reminded of the atrocities and crimes committed upon them. What if they demanded that the US remove the flag from public display? Would you support this? Why? Why not?
 
Bspencer said:
Most folks would probably agree that the confederate flag symbolizes (among potentially other things) slavery. And, out of respect and love for our black brothers and sisters, I think most folks would also support the movement to remove this flag from public display such as at the South Carolina state capitol.

What would you say if American Indians started a protest about the American flag? That every time they saw the flag, they were reminded of the atrocities and crimes committed upon them. What if they demanded that the US remove the flag from public display? Would you support this? Why? Why not?
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It should be up to the people there to decide. To me the confederacy is just a part of our history. Like “Tom Sawyer” books. Obliterating all that offends a small group, or any group. Is very much suspicious activity to me. But this is public property. On private property you can fly what you want. So they say at this time anyway. If a government is not working, who needs it.

In short, IMO it should be up to the SC people.Humm. I just wonder if this may be connected to a recent happening in a certain church there in SC. The timing is just…questionable.
 
Bspencer said:
Most folks would probably agree that the confederate flag symbolizes (among potentially other things) slavery. And, out of respect and love for our black brothers and sisters, I think most folks would also support the movement to remove this flag from public display such as at the South Carolina state capitol.

What would you say if American Indians started a protest about the American flag? That every time they saw the flag, they were reminded of the atrocities and crimes committed upon them. What if they demanded that the US remove the flag from public display? Would you support this? Why? Why not?
Click to expand...
In our current polarized, media-driven environment of protest and political correctness, I can actually see such a demand being made. For a number of years now Native Americans around here have protested Thanksgiving. But of course, the Confederacy lost and the U.S. won, and the flag isn’t going anywhere. Would love to see some PC politicians squirm about this, though.
 
That’s an interesting question. Just about every country has done awful things in its history, and its flag could conceivably represent bad things to different groups. Spain’s expulsion of the Jews, Great Britain’s imperialism, France with Napoleon’s brutal conquests, Israel’s mistreatment of Palestinians, etc. Sure the US has done terrible things, but we do a lot of good in the world as well.

I would say the difference with the Confederate States of America is that the only real reason for its short-lived existence was the preservation of slave labor. Thankfully they lost.
 
Being Australian , and having little knowledge of actual day to day American Culture,
I can understand what this Flag Symbolises , it Symbolises repression & pain to a lot of
Good people, and to see this symbol of pain freely displayed , is a constant reminder ,
So man up,and take it Down &. Leave it down,
If People want a flag on the inside of this house on a wall , not because of what it represents
But simply because it looks Cool, then that’s their business
 
The Confederate flag is not only reminiscent of the dark period of slavery in the American South, it also calls to mind the Confederacy, a “nation” that seceded from the Union because they did not want to give up their slaves and believed too heavily in the idea of individual states’ rights. This secession was unacceptable, and it is the reason why President Lincoln went to war with the Confederacy (it had nothing to do with slavery at first).

Thus, both of these ideals (slavery and secession) are evident in the Confederate flag, and they have no place in modern American society.

As to your question about the actual American flag, although yes earlier Americans brutally oppressed Native Americans and stole their lands, the American flag is the symbol of our nation, and Native Americans live in this nation; therefore, they must abide by the flag and pledge their allegiance to the nation.

May God bless you all abundantly and forever! 🙂
 
phil_at_dayboro said:
Being Australian , and having little knowledge of actual day to day American Culture,
I can understand what this Flag Symbolises , it Symbolises repression & pain to a lot of
Good people, and to see this symbol of pain freely displayed , is a constant reminder ,
So man up,and take it Down &. Leave it down,
If People want a flag on the inside of this house on a wall , not because of what it represents
But simply because it looks Cool, then that’s their business
Click to expand...
Wasn’t there a movement in Australia to remove the Union Jack from your flag at some point, like Canada did? Is that still a controversy? Just curious, I’ve always liked the Australian flag but I can see how some might want to change it to something less British.
 
billcu1 said:
It should be up to the people there to decide. To me the confederacy is just a part of our history. Like “Tom Sawyer” books. Obliterating all that offends a small group, or any group. Is very much suspicious activity to me. But this is public property. On private property you can fly what you want. So they say at this time anyway. If a government is not working, who needs it.

In short, IMO it should be up to the SC people.Humm. I just wonder if this may be connected to a recent happening in a certain church there in SC. The timing is just…questionable.
Click to expand...
Of course it’s coming from the church shooting, as awful as that reality may be.

The people of SC do not want to be equated with the off-the-end racism that leads to such events. Understandably.

That racism has become popularly associated with the “Dixie” flag (which was not the national flag of the CSA).

I have no feelings about the Confederacy one way or the other, but would point out, that “extinct” flags (CSA, CCCP, etc) do not enjoy the same status as the flags of sovereign nations. The Indians have no right to demand that this nation (in which they are citizens) hide its emblem. The CSA is not sovereign and its flag has no such status.

ICXC NIKA.
 
robertericleech said:
Wasn’t there a movement in Australia to remove the Union Jack from your flag at some point, like Canada did? Is that still a controversy? Just curious, I’ve always liked the Australian flag but I can see how some might want to change it to something less British.
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I have always admired the Canadian Flag , because it’s bright and cheery ,

Even back in the 60’s there was a movement to replace the Australia Flag , but has never Gained the necessary traction , I feel the Australian flag tells a story,
The Union Jack Represents the Past , the British beginnings of this land,
And the southern Cross represents the Future ,
One Arguement brought up against change is that Thousands of people
Fought , and died under That flag to protect freedom , and still do ,
,there just isn’t the necessary interest and traction for change,
Plus it stands out in the Crowd , it also turns up in the most unexpected places and is instantly recognised, I was in a narrow alleyway in Athens Greece last year,and one was hanging from a window,
 
Richard_White said:
The Confederate flag is not only reminiscent of the dark period of slavery in the American South, it also calls to mind the Confederacy, a “nation” that seceded from the Union because they did not want to give up their slaves and believed too heavily in the idea of individual states’ rights. This secession was unacceptable, and it is the reason why President Lincoln went to war with the Confederacy (it had nothing to do with slavery at first).

Thus, both of these ideals (slavery and secession) are evident in the Confederate flag, and they have no place in modern American society.

As to your question about the actual American flag, although yes earlier Americans brutally oppressed Native Americans and stole their lands, the American flag is the symbol of our nation, and Native Americans live in this nation; therefore, they must abide by the flag and pledge their allegiance to the nation.

May God bless you all abundantly and forever! 🙂
Click to expand...
The actual point that you have brought up can also be a good reason to leave such things alone. As a reminder of how things can become. Like the modern day “sex offender” craze. No one questions that. Kind of like the old witch craze. Some SOs have things on their ID, sounds like the star of David or scarlet letter. There’s been talk of special housing. That was for the Jews too in Germany. Then comes…the interment camps and gas chambers. Over and over.
 
GEddie said:
Of course it’s coming from the church shooting, as awful as that reality may be.

The people of SC do not want to be equated with the off-the-end racism that leads to such events. Understandably.

That racism has become popularly associated with the “Dixie” flag (which was not the national flag of the CSA).

I have no feelings about the Confederacy one way or the other, but would point out, that “extinct” flags (CSA, CCCP, etc) do not enjoy the same status as the flags of sovereign nations. The Indians have no right to demand that this nation (in which they are citizens) hide its emblem. The CSA is not sovereign and its flag has no such status.

ICXC NIKA.
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There was racism in the church shooting, before it happened, and will be now after it happened. South Carolina was and is a southern state. Sorry. And I might point out. Not all slaves were treated badly. Some were freed too. I don’t agree with it. Slavery that is.But not everyone was treated badly. Then Rosa Parks. A criminal back then. Wanted to sit in front of the bus. I like what was said up thread. All nations have skeletons in their closet. Terrible things must not be forgotten.
 
phil_at_dayboro said:
I have always admired the Canadian Flag , because it’s bright and cheery ,

Even back in the 60’s there was a movement to replace the Australia Flag , but has never Gained the necessary traction , I feel the Australian flag tells a story,
The Union Jack Represents the Past , the British beginnings of this land,
And the southern Cross represents the Future ,
One Arguement brought up against change is that Thousands of people
Fought , and died under That flag to protect freedom , and still do ,
,there just isn’t the necessary interest and traction for change,
Plus it stands out in the Crowd , it also turns up in the most unexpected places and is instantly recognised, I was in a narrow alleyway in Athens Greece last year,and one was hanging from a window,
Click to expand...
I agree with you about Canada 🙂

I also like how their Government signs show the name “Canada” with the flag flying off the “d”. Nice and upbeat. Obviously Canucks haven’t yet learnt negative vibes about government.

I agree that the AU flag is special, but either you guys or NZ will one day have to change, as the flags are almost the same :)🙂

ICXC NIKA
 
I would strongly disagree the flag symbolizes slavery. I think for many people it symbolizes independence. But you don’t need the American Indians to protest the U.S. flag. Anyone who thinks the Confederate flag should be relegated to the dustbin of history because the klan used it should oppose the U.S. flag. Do some research and you’ll find the klan carried the U.S. flag.
 
exnihilo said:
I would strongly disagree the flag symbolizes slavery. I think for many people it symbolizes independence. But you don’t need the American Indians to protest the U.S. flag. Anyone who thinks the Confederate flag should be relegated to the dustbin of history because the klan used it should oppose the U.S. flag. Do some research and you’ll find the klan carried the U.S. flag.
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Bravo Yes indeed. I agree. And people’s brothers and sisters died in that war.

👍
 
exnihilo said:
I would strongly disagree the flag symbolizes slavery. I think for many people it symbolizes independence. But you don’t need the American Indians to protest the U.S. flag. Anyone who thinks the Confederate flag should be relegated to the dustbin of history because the klan used it should oppose the U.S. flag. Do some research and you’ll find the klan carried the U.S. flag.
Click to expand...
I remember too a certain US President who very much used to always turn his back on the flag. And he is bi-racial. That was very much hushed up as he clean up to become president. Now that’s the US flag.
 
GEddie said:
People die in every war. That doesn’t necessarily sanctify the cause.

ICXC NIKA
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You miss the point. Not only were Americans fighting Americans. But families were split over sides. The North won because they were first in obtaining and using the new things called the “Train”. They could move troops quicker. It was a painful time for all. Whether you believe in slavery or not. In WW2 Americans were united. In the civil war brother was against brother.
 
exnihilo said:
I would strongly disagree the flag symbolizes slavery. I think for many people it symbolizes independence.
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The independence to own slaves.

I’m not familiar with the rules in South Carolina, but I’m surprised that the governor needs the state legislature’s approval to remove the confederate flag. It’s not the official state flag, it was hoisted during the Civil Rights era of the 1960s.

If it’s on state grounds, presumably the governor has the authority to pull it down, just as she would have the authority to tell the S.C. Division of General Services to cut down a tree, order the repaving of a parking lot, replace the light bulbs, etc.

If I were the governor I’d have it removed and not ask for political permission. If they don’'t like it, let 'em impeach me.
 
on_the_hill said:
The independence to own slaves.
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If so they should have stayed in the Union which had slavery until the 13th amendment was passed. Obviously slavery was a factor in the war. But to reduce it to just that is to not have a good understanding of history.
 
exnihilo said:
. But to reduce it to just that is to not have a good understanding of history.
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Wrong. To blame it on anything else is to romanticize the Imsurgency but we’ll never agree on this, I can see.
 
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